anatess2 Posted August 28, 2017 Report Share Posted August 28, 2017 (edited) On 8/25/2017 at 5:53 PM, zil said: I do NOT comprehend why the logic is so difficult for some people. Choose not to believe it, fine, but the logic is sound. A) Let us say we have an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent being. We'll use "X" to represent this being. How omniscient is omniscient? B-1) If you believe X's omniscience does not include 100% of the future, then stop here, as whether this being created mankind from preexisting sentient beings or from nothing (and either way, gave them "free will" (whatever that means)), it doesn't matter. X doesn't know everything that will ensue and therefore cannot be blamed for what these sentient creatures do with their free will. [Stop here. The remainder of this post is irrelevant if this is the belief.] Even this is irrelevant.to the concept of hell. God doesn't have to be omniscient all the way to 100% of the future for this logic to fail. The GIFT of the choice itself already makes hell possible regardless of whether 0% would choose it. Hence, even the Catholics/Evangelicals who believe in creatio ex nihilo believe that Christ's atonement was a redemption from this choice to sin. But, yes, it still doesn't satisfy the conflict as even Catholics/Evangelicals profess that the atonement will redeem MANY. Not ALL. Because of choice. Edited August 28, 2017 by anatess2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted August 28, 2017 Report Share Posted August 28, 2017 On 8/26/2017 at 5:10 AM, fatima said: Once again...my understanding... You (LDS) believe that God would not create something He knew would fail, yes? He would not create a creature only to see that creature fall to Hell, yes? If that is correct, why is it not equally illogical that God would establish a church that He knew would fail? It is the LDS position that Jesus Christ did establish the True Church, but that sinful men went so far off the reservation that the church fell into irretrievable error? Greetings @fatima Critical to LDS thinking is that all humans existed prior to our mortal earth experience. This we call the pre-existence. As an engineer and scientist, I am often somewhat appalled by religious claims void of critical thinking and logic. For example; any efforts to mitigate free will or even justice based on what happens to humans between birth and death is palpably absurd. Yet these topics are debated by supporter of such thoughts as though there is nothing amiss. If you have concrete evidence that humans are unencumbered in expressing free will or that there has never been a case of injustice that was not addressed – I would really like to look at your data sampling and evidence. When it comes to considering a great apostasy – I am of the mind that what people do thunders so loudly in my ears I cannot heard a word being said. With this in mind let’s take an honest look at the history of humanity after the first century of the Christian era. Would you point out to me the first time that a Traditional Christian society with power to enact laws to protect their fellow citizens passed a law making the murder of someone that does not believe in the “trinity” Christian G-d a punishable offense. The date this first occurred may come as a shock to you – especially if you believe Jesus intended his true follows (not apostate followers) to treat their enemies with love and compassion. Now you may say that there were individuals that showed compassion a love even if laws were not enacted. How interesting is it that not one individual ever made public disapproval of anyone being put to death for not believing – unless it was someone of their same Christian demonation religious ideological persuasion. The historical records overwhelmingly indicate that the crime of heresy was considered a capital offence to devout Traditional Christians. Those that literally believe that G-d created all things – do not understand history or perhaps they do not understand G-d. But the assumption that there was no apostasy – I would be very interested in where they think these “Christians” were hiding for the most of last 2,000 years and that a unbroken chain of believers (by deeds) existed. The Traveler Sunday21 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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