The Three Levels of Heaven

[zil]

15 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

there was a small time in its vast history where you can buy absolution

Ah, the good old days, how I long for their return.  With online payments, it would be even easier now.  :wistful sigh:

[anatess2]

1 minute ago, zil said:

Ah, the good old days, how I long for their return.  With online payments, it would be even easier now.  :wistful sigh:

Can't use your fancy pen for online payments.  Checks are more fun with the fancy scrawl!

[zil]

Just now, anatess2 said:

Can't use your fancy pen for online payments.  Checks are more fun with the fancy scrawl!

Right, and wouldn't it be so much more fun, if all the letters looked like the letter "P" in this medieval manuscript:

Of course, we're going to need larger checks...

[Guest]

4 hours ago, anatess2 said:

This is an incorrect interpretation of what I and Johnson Jones said.  Most of the people who are not born and raised by a Catholic parent are more than likely unbaptized and un-chatechized in the Catholic faith.  What we are talking about, therefore, does not apply to them.  Those who have not received the Catholic sacraments by no fault of their own can be saved by Christ's mercy.

How far reaching is invincible ignorance (when someone is considered to have not received the sacraments due to no fault of their own)?  Would its application be common in modern society, where one can research Catholicism with simply an internet connection or library card?

My comments aren't really about Catholicism so much as a very deep problem I personally have with any and all religions believing in a binary heaven or hell afterlife (which is one thing that fuels my testimony in the Church).  I agree that Catholicism appears to be more open to the salvation of nonbelievers than conservative Protestantism and most types of Islam.

Edited November 8, 2017 by DoctorLemon

[Rob Osborn]

5 hours ago, DoctorLemon said:

How far reaching is invincible ignorance (when someone is considered to have not received the sacraments due to no fault of their own)?  Would its application be common in modern society, where one can research Catholicism with simply an internet connection or library card?

My comments aren't really about Catholicism so much as a very deep problem I personally have with any and all religions believing in a binary heaven or hell afterlife (which is one thing that fuels my testimony in the Church).  I agree that Catholicism appears to be more open to the salvation of nonbelievers than conservative Protestantism and most types of Islam.

I find it of great interest to discuss then to find that the Book of Mormon, the cornerstone of our religion, teaches of a very strict binary heaven or hell afterlife.

[anatess2]

11 hours ago, DoctorLemon said:

How far reaching is invincible ignorance (when someone is considered to have not received the sacraments due to no fault of their own)?  Would its application be common in modern society, where one can research Catholicism with simply an internet connection or library card?

Regardless.  The situation we have been talking about only applies to baptized AND catechized Catholics.

[Blueskye2]

On 11/3/2017 at 9:18 PM, JoCa said:

Blossom76, I commend your willingness to live faithfully by the Christian household ideal. I think it is absolutely wonderful and awesome to see someone not of the LDS faith striving to live their life and family life according to this model.  We could use a lot more people in the LDS church such as you and your husband.

I don't know how the Catholic Church is weathering the current hellish onslaught against the Scriptures, but it is certainly an interesting time to be in the LDS Church. 15-20 years ago, the LDS Church teachings were very, very strong in the traditional family model (and they still are to a large extent). See https://www.lds.org/topics/family-proclamation?lang=eng&old=true.

Humane Vitae, an encyclical from Pope Paul VI in 1968, is considered prophetic. http://w2.vatican.va/content/paul-vi/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae.html

I think the two compliment each other in in many ways. 

[Blueskye2]

On 11/7/2017 at 5:51 PM, anatess2 said:

This is an incorrect interpretation of what I and Johnson Jones said.  Most of the people who are not born and raised by a Catholic parent are more than likely unbaptized and un-chatechized in the Catholic faith.  What we are talking about, therefore, does not apply to them.  Those who have not received the Catholic sacraments by no fault of their own can be saved by Christ's mercy.

??

I only add that you make a distinction that doesn’t exist. The Sacraments are a sign of Christ’s mercy, in who, we are saved.  There is no other name by which we are saved, and our salvation is wholly through God’s loving mercy. 

[Blueskye2]

On 11/3/2017 at 12:12 PM, james12 said:

Except that an otherwise healthy individual would not kill themselves unless they had some serious mental disorder. If a Catholic husband believes baptism in the LDS church is like his wife killing herself, then he must assume she has some mental disorder. Right?

If this is how he thinks then there is no Bible discussion that will change his mind. He must first accept that she is a rational , fully functional individual.  

I think assuming a well informed Catholic does not understand formation of conscience is a bit of a stretch. ?

[Blueskye2]

On 11/7/2017 at 3:42 PM, JohnsonJones said:

Well, with the modern Catholics, they do believe that those who are not Catholic also have a chance to go to heaven.  It is in a nutshell, very similar to the LDS idea.  If one would have accepted Catholicism (clarification: but not in all instances, very limited, depending on what their beliefs and thoughts are), or are Catholics in their hearts, they will be saved.  They may even have the Catholic church right there, but for some mortal reason, it is impossible for them to reasonably join, and as such may be subject to being saved.

It is those that ARE catholic and reject Catholicism that are doomed. 

It is Catholic teaching, that those who follow God, according to their conscience, without having been taught the Gospel, will be judged according to their adherence to their conscience.  Those who do not follow their conscience condemn themselves.  So to the topic of heaven and who will be there, I sincerely believe many people from many faiths will enjoy the Beatific Vision, including Mormons!

Not doomed, but in grave peril when they face God at their final judgement. The Catholic Church has declared one person only as being in hell: Judas Iscariot. In other words, God will be our judge.

 

ETA: this doesn’t mean anything goes. Catholics walk a fine line, the Church teaching that the two sins against the Holy Spirt are presumption and despair. Presumption would be, sin away, God will forgive me. Despair would be, my sins are so awful that God cannot forgive me. We should not act in presumption or despair.

And to conscience, moral decisions for a Catholic should be made with reason and faith, and acknowledging the authority of the Church. An immoral act made in good conscience is not free of guilt. 

Edited November 10, 2017 by Blueskye2

[anatess2]

1 hour ago, Blueskye2 said:

??

I only add that you make a distinction that doesn’t exist. The Sacraments are a sign of Christ’s mercy, in who, we are saved.  There is no other name by which we are saved, and our salvation is wholly through God’s loving mercy. 

I have not made any distinction other than that if you reject Christ after receiving the Sacraments, Christ may not bring you salvation by his mercy.  There's a reason why Catholics baptize babies.

[Guest]

On 11/8/2017 at 1:20 AM, Rob Osborn said:

I find it of great interest to discuss then to find that the Book of Mormon, the cornerstone keystone of our religion, teaches of a very strict binary heaven or hell afterlife.

Fixed it.

Edited November 13, 2017 by Guest

[Rob Osborn]

23 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Fixed it.

Okay...still means the same thing.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Okay...still means the same thing.

If you say so.

[Rob Osborn]

Just now, Carborendum said:

If you say so.

You didnt change its meaning.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Rob Osborn said:

You didnt change its meaning.

So, I guess, you're saying so?

[anatess2]

People and their hobby horses I tell ya.

Let's just stick with fountains pen on that hobby horse thing.  It's more fun.

[Rob Osborn]

21 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

People and their hobby horses I tell ya.

Let's just stick with fountains pen on that hobby horse thing.  It's more fun.

I see you are up on your horse again.

[Guest]

50 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I see you are up on your horse again.

Again? 

Edited November 13, 2017 by Guest

[zil]

15 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Again? 

 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, zil said:

<snip image>

[anatess2]

17 hours ago, zil said:

<snip>

I fell off my horse!  What am I looking at?  

And you're slipping off your horse too!  You forgot to identify the ink. 

[zil]

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

I fell off my horse!  What am I looking at?  

And you're slipping off your horse too!  You forgot to identify the ink. 

[anatess2]

3 minutes ago, zil said:

OH!  Levels!  Brilliant!  Art School could help you.  LOL!!!

Yeah, my Lamy blue-black is WAAAAAY better than that one.  

And not sure if it's the nib or the ink but it doesn't seem to be as smooth flowing.

[Guest]

Hey @zil I finally ran out of ink on that steel pen you sent me (aluminum? No, I think it's steel). I replaced it with an insert from my Pilot V5.  With the aid of the spring it works like a charm.  I love green.  Have I mentioned that before?