Who Shall Declare His Generation?

[a-train]

Isaiah 53:8: 'He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.'

What exaclty is the question: 'Who shall declare his generation?' asking?

What does it mean to declare one's generation?

Does this refer to the resurrection also?

-a-train

[AnthonyB]

Isaiah 53:8: 'He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.'

What exaclty is the question: 'Who shall declare his generation?' asking?

What does it mean to declare one's generation?

Does this refer to the resurrection also?

-a-train

a-train,

Wouldn't it imply no kids, that is no generation to follow him, that could be declared His? The context makes it clearly Jesus who is spoke of. LXX has "genean" as the word for generation. Which basic meaning is family, descent, but it could also carry progeny, generation of mankind, course of a life. The Hebrew is "dor". NIV goes with "descendants" instead of generation. But they use generation or similair words most of the time to translate and only use descendant 6 times. (It could even be "house").

There probably goes the idea of Jesus having had descendants. (Puts Dan Brown out of a job!)Alhtough you could take it to be something about the generation he lived with but I'm not sure how.

[Traveler]

Isaiah 53:8: 'He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.'

What exaclty is the question: 'Who shall declare his generation?' asking?

What does it mean to declare one's generation?

Does this refer to the resurrection also?

-a-train

In essence it is your genealogy

The Traveler

[Annabelli]

I was hoping that someone would give some LDS references for this Scripture. I have not been able to find anything on my own search.

I thought that it would have more to do with Missionary work.

[AnthonyB]

I was hoping that someone would give some LDS references for this Scripture. I have not been able to find anything on my own search.

I thought that it would have more to do with Missionary work.

How would LDS take that chapter to be anything but talking about Jesus and his earthly ministry?

Although verse 10 makes interesting reading.

"though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering"

"he will see his offspring and prolong his days"

Given v4 may indicate that He won't have discernible descendants on earth, what is verse 10 saying?

The trad veiw would be that "offspring" refers to the church, would LDS be free to see it as offspring in the celestial kingdom?

[Annabelli]

It is my understanding that Missionary work is the first and most important and prestigious work of the LDS Church.

All of Isaiah is about Missionary Work.

• Isaiah 53:8–11. Explain that the Book of Mormon prophet Abinadi gave a powerful commentary on these verses when he was speaking to the wicked priests of King Noah (Mosiah 15:10–13). According to Abinadi, who will be the seed of the Savior? (See also Mosiah 5:7–8.)

10 And now I say unto you, who shall declare his ageneration? Behold, I say unto you, that when his soul has been made an offering for bsin he shall see his cseed. And now what say ye? And who shall be his seed?

11 Behold I say unto you, that whosoever has heard the words of the aprophets, yea, all the holy prophets who have prophesied concerning the coming of the Lord—I say unto you, that all those who have hearkened unto their words, and believed that the Lord would redeem his people, and have looked forward to that day for a remission of their sins, I say unto you, that these are his seed, or they are the heirs of the bkingdom of God.

12 For these are they whose sins ahe has borne; these are they for whom he has died, to redeem them from their transgressions. And now, are they not his seed?

13 Yea, and are not the aprophets, every one that has opened his mouth to prophesy, that has not fallen into transgression, I mean all the holy prophets ever since the world began? I say unto you that they are his seed.

[AnthonyB]

It is my understanding that Missionary work is the first and most important and prestigious work of the LDS Church.

All of Isaiah is about Missionary Work.

• Isaiah 53:8–11. Explain that the Book of Mormon prophet Abinadi gave a powerful commentary on these verses when he was speaking to the wicked priests of King Noah (Mosiah 15:10–13). According to Abinadi, who will be the seed of the Savior? (See also Mosiah 5:7–8.)

10 And now I say unto you, who shall declare his ageneration? Behold, I say unto you, that when his soul has been made an offering for bsin he shall see his cseed. And now what say ye? And who shall be his seed?

11 Behold I say unto you, that whosoever has heard the words of the aprophets, yea, all the holy prophets who have prophesied concerning the coming of the Lord—I say unto you, that all those who have hearkened unto their words, and believed that the Lord would redeem his people, and have looked forward to that day for a remission of their sins, I say unto you, that these are his seed, or they are the heirs of the bkingdom of God.

12 For these are they whose sins ahe has borne; these are they for whom he has died, to redeem them from their transgressions. And now, are they not his seed?

13 Yea, and are not the aprophets, every one that has opened his mouth to prophesy, that has not fallen into transgression, I mean all the holy prophets ever since the world began? I say unto you that they are his seed.

So you'd basically agree that the seed in this case is the followers of Jesus.

Do you see the Jesus as the "typical" missionairy. (I don't know if your into "typology".) Is His life the exampler of missionary work and therefore verses that reflect on His ministry could in away be reflected or applicable to all missionaries?

[Annabelli]

So you'd basically agree that the seed in this case is the followers of Jesus.

Do you see the Jesus as the "typical" missionairy. (I don't know if your into "typology".) Is His life the exampler of missionary work and therefore verses that reflect on His ministry could in away be reflected or applicable to all missionaries?

Yes, I do agree with this.

I don't understand how genealogy is involved.

I believe that having children is a blessing BUT it is not a substitute for missionary work NOR will it speed up the second coming.

[a-train]

Tony,

The LDS position is emphatically that Isaiah is here speaking of Jesus of Nazereth. Jesus told the Nephites concerning Isaiah: 'And now, behold, I say unto you, that ye ought to search these things. Yea, a commandment I give unto you that ye search these things diligently; for great are the words of Isaiah.' (3 Nephi 23:1)

I figured Abinadi's explanation would come up quickly, I'm glad to see it. The 'HE' that Isaiah is referring to is the 'servant' that 'shall deal prudently' and 'shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high' (Isaiah 52:13) Certainly this is none other than Jesus of Nazereth who 'was wounded for our transgressions' (Isaiah 53:5)

I especially am touched by 'when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed' (Isaiah 53:10) Now the more typical interpretation I have heard for that is that the Saviour, in taking upon himself the sins of the world felt the pains and travel of all mankind, his children. But I would submit also something more. When WE personally make the Saviour the offering for our sins through taking upon us His name and in coming unto him, He sees us as His seed, we become His children. We are 'buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.' (Colossians 2:12)

We not only receive spiritual life from the Saviour, but we will also be resurrected bodily with Him also. We are therefore doubly His seed.

It is in the context of Isaiah 53 that Abinadi spoke of Jesus being the 'very Eternal Father' who 'himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people' (Mosiah 15:1 and 4) Certainly it is through the travails and suffering of the Atoning Sacrifice that Jesus gives unto his followers eternal life, He is therefore in this regard our Eternal Father.

Notice the phrase: 'He was taken from prison and from judgment'. Now some would say this speaks of Jesus descending into the deepest depth of hell and coming out again. We LDS know that the Saviour did NOT go into spirit prison and suffer any further than what he endured on the cross whereon He said 'it is finished'. (John 19:30) However, the penitent faithful are the seed of the LORD, they are taken from prison and judgement.

My question in the beginning is specific to the phrase 'Who shall declare his generation?' Notice this question comes after a similar: 'Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?'

Does it only demonstrate the ignorance of man in regard to the mysteries of God? Are we talking about the failure of men to acknowledge the Saviour as the Eternal Father and the LORD while living in and around Jerusalem? Is it a call for the seed of Christ to declare the Gospel? Is it only the Holy Ghost who declares our generation as the offspring of God? (Rom 8:16) Perhaps there is no single answer and many are applicable as in many of the things of God. I would love to hear further thoughts.

-a-train

[AnthonyB]

a-train:

Going to place my reply in the "Open forum", since I'm not LDS my reply may or may not fall within your definiton of LDS "gospel".

[CrimsonKairos]

The first few chapters of Mosiah, along with Romans 8 and several others, indicate that those who are reborn through the Spirit are called the children of Christ.

I do not believe Jesus had biological children. He is the father of our salvation, though, and in the spirit of adoption we call him "the eternal father," not confusing him with God the Father of our spirits.

[Old Tex]

Yes, I do agree with this. I don't understand how genealogy is involved.

I believe that having children is a blessing BUT it is not a substitute for missionary work NOR will it speed up the second coming.

Your last sentence raises a question that I've had on my mind lately, the idea of speeding up or slowing down the second coming. I don't wish to take this thread off topic, but I thought I would mention it. It seems to me that the second coming is not determined so much by time itself, as it is by conditions.

While missionary work seems to be one of those conditions, I see that the mortal birth of all those promised a body and a time in mortality, as another condition. Can the second coming occur until those who kept their first estate receive a body? Personally I don't see how it can.

If it can't, that seems, in my mind, to explain why abortion and homosexuality is on the rise. If I were Satan, and the second coming could not come to pass until those promised bodies received them, I think that I would be doing everything that I could to prevent it from happening. I wonder if others have considered this. It sure seems to me as a very good reason to oppose both of them. I think this is the work of one of those unseen principalities that Paul spoke of that we should oppose.

[Elphaba]

[abortion and homosexuality is on the rise.

Abortion and homosexuality are not on the rise. In all of the cultures of the world there has always been abortion and homosexuality, including in the United States.

In the contemporary world in the United States, prior the '70s, women were getting abortions; however, it was one of those things you never talked about. The result is many people think they weren't happening when they were. Additionally, numerous other cultures, throughout the history of mankind, even ancient ones, allowed and performed abortions.

In the United States, however, after abortion was legalized in the '70s, the government started keeping statistics, so it just seems like it is on the rise. Perhaps it is slightly, but when looked at in terms of the history of mankind, it is not by much.

Additionally, homosexuality is not on the rise. It is the same percentage it has been since modern man has walked the earth.

I think it's important to keep things in perspective.

Elphaba

Edit later in the day: I just looked up the abortion statistics for 1990 to 2000. In 1990 the number of legal abortions in the country was 1,429,247. In 2,000 the number of legal abortions in the country was 857,475. So unless there has been a drastic uptick in the number of abortions performed in the country since 2000, the number in the United States has been steadily decreasing.

This information was provided by the Division of Reproductive Health, National Center for Chronic Disease Prevention and Health Promotion

E.

[tiancum]

Abortion and homosexuality are not on the rise. In all of the cultures of the world there has always been abortion and homosexuality, including in the United States.

Well, if the population is growing, it is a natural assumption(although incorrect) that there are more who make these choices.

it is one of 3 options.

there are less abortions than ever before.

there are a more or less equal amount.

there are more.

I think i understand what the original post is saying. both practices homosexuality, and abortion are more openly accepted, more talked about. Although it is a logical fallacy to assume, just because it is more open, and legal, that there are more.

There are not more abortions since the '80s..at least here in the states. And there is really no reliable data from the early 20th century, or 19th century to compare. So there could be a rise in abortions since a hundred years ago. Then again...

It is not safe to assume either way. We simply don't know.