Shopping for a Church OR Church vs. State

[anatess2]

9 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Hum...so, you dont think Satan had anything to do with passing laws allowing same sex marriage? 

Satan has something to do with tempting people to demand or accept gay marriage.  Satan doesn’t sit in the SCOTUS.

Edited March 13, 2018 by anatess2

[Rob Osborn]

20 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Satan has something to do with tempting people to demand or accept gay marriage.  Satan doesn’t sit in the SCOTUS.

So, Satan does have something to do with pushing laws toward same sex marriage.

[anatess2]

7 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

So, Satan does have something to do with pushing laws toward same sex marriage.

Not Satan.  People.  They don’t have to listen to him you know.

[Blossom76]

17 hours ago, Carborendum said:

"When people are looking for a church, what do they look for?" After much discussion we came to the conclusion that most are not looking for truth.  They're looking for a faith that agrees with their own lifestyle.  This, to me, is the epitome of creating God in man's image.

A lot of people aren't looking for God.  They're looking for someone who's going to tell them that whatever they're doing is just fine.  So, they sit and listen for a while to the minister and if they say things that tell them they DON'T need to change, then they'll stay.  They think what they're doing is just fine.  And they don't need to change. (Hello, Trump). Is that was God is about?  "Don't change a thing.  I love you so much that I don't think you need to change a thing."

Now, there are also those who actually seek after truth.  They really are seeking after God.  Yet, they still make the mistake of creating God in their own image.  They don't listen for God's word.  They determine it.

'If horses could draw they would draw their Gods as horses' a lot of people do create their view of God from their own image.  People want to be told everything about their lifestyle is ok.

The truth is it is God who doesn't change, but we should.  God is eternal, he has aways been, and we should live by his rules not only out of respect and because its the right thing to do, but to give ourselves the best chance possible to be with him again.

Choosing a church is even harder.  To decipher which church really does speak for God, and is it the only one that does so or are there many? That is an extremely hard road to travel, I can understand why many choose to stay with the faith they were raised in.

Edited March 13, 2018 by Blossom76

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

Not Satan.  People.  They don’t have to listen to him you know.

Yeah, you arent going to convince any good Christian that Satan doesnt work to push laws of same sex marriage into place.

[anatess2]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

Yeah, you arent going to convince any good Christian that Satan doesnt work to push laws of same sex marriage into place.

Satan is busy.  He tries to thwart the Plan of Salvation to bring people to his side.  He works on PEOPLE.  He has no power beyond that.  A lot of Christians believe that when something bad happens - like all those people dying in a tsunami - it's because Satan caused the tsunami.  I don't believe Satan has any influence on the design of Planet Earth.  Or when same sex marriage is passed that Satan made it pass.  I don't believe that.  I believe PEOPLE CHOOSE to make it happen.  It wouldn't happen otherwise no matter how hard Satan tries to make it happen.  I don't blame Satan for anything.  I blame PEOPLE who choose to follow him rather than Christ.  Blaming Satan excuses people's choices.

My kids have said to me at some point in their lives - "Satan made me do it!".  I put that silly notion out of their heads in a quickness.

Edited March 13, 2018 by anatess2

[Guest]

On 3/12/2018 at 5:31 PM, lostinwater said:

Thank-you Carb.

This part i completely agree with.  i just don't believe that everyone who doesn't believe the same as what the mormon church espouses is automatically saying "No, I already have the truth.  I'm fine" - to God

Didn't say they do.  But I am saying that a lot of people who do reject LDS theology are saying exactly that.  Notice the subtle difference.

Quote

I'm not saying truth is relative. 

I never said you did.  I thought I said explicitly:

On 3/12/2018 at 4:58 PM, Carborendum said:

This states that there may be a truth out there, but we can only perceive our lens colored version of it.  And there is no way around it. 

The part of your original argument that I disagreed with was the final sentence shown here.  I don't believe you said it explicitly.  But it was certainly implied by your wording earlier.

[Traveler]

How can anyone that refuses or opposes empirical evidence think that they seek truth?

 

The Traveler

[lostinwater]

51 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Didn't say they do.  But I am saying that a lot of people who do reject LDS theology are saying exactly that.  Notice the subtle difference.

I never said you did.  I thought I said explicitly:

The part of your original argument that I disagreed with was the final sentence shown here.  I don't believe you said it explicitly.  But it was certainly implied by your wording earlier.

Thanks Carb.

So i tried really hard not to put words in your mouth, and not to convey the idea that i thought truth was relative.  i apologize if i was unsuccessful in that endeavor.  Regardless, having seen how many really long threads where people re-state what they stated before to try to get someone who will never agree with them to agree with them (i've started a few as you know  ), i'm not going to make that attempt here.  

But you have excellent points, and i very much appreciate the civility and kindness.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, lostinwater said:

Thanks Carb.

So i tried really hard not to put words in your mouth, and not to convey the idea that i thought truth was relative.  i apologize if i was unsuccessful in that endeavor.  Regardless, having seen how many really long threads where people re-state what they stated before to try to get someone who will never agree with them to agree with them (i've started a few as you know  ), i'm not going to make that attempt here.  

But you have excellent points, and i very much appreciate the civility and kindness.

FWIW, I think we agree more than we disagree on this topic at least.  And, yes, I appreciate the civility as well.

[Rob Osborn]

15 hours ago, anatess2 said:

Satan is busy.  He tries to thwart the Plan of Salvation to bring people to his side.  He works on PEOPLE.  He has no power beyond that.  A lot of Christians believe that when something bad happens - like all those people dying in a tsunami - it's because Satan caused the tsunami.  I don't believe Satan has any influence on the design of Planet Earth.  Or when same sex marriage is passed that Satan made it pass.  I don't believe that.  I believe PEOPLE CHOOSE to make it happen.  It wouldn't happen otherwise no matter how hard Satan tries to make it happen.  I don't blame Satan for anything.  I blame PEOPLE who choose to follow him rather than Christ.  Blaming Satan excuses people's choices.

My kids have said to me at some point in their lives - "Satan made me do it!".  I put that silly notion out of their heads in a quickness.

So, what do you think it means when people listen to Satan, they become wicked, and then Satan has all power over them?

[anatess2]

7 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

So, what do you think it means when people listen to Satan, they become wicked, and then Satan has all power over them?

No.  The Atonement is more powerful than Satan.  Satan don't get all power over them until they get sent to outer darkness with him.

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

No.  The Atonement is more powerful than Satan.  Satan don't get all power over them until they get sent to outer darkness with him.

So, how do you interpret this scripture-

5 But remember that he that persists in his own carnal nature, and goes on in the ways of sin and rebellion against God, remaineth in his fallen state and the devil hath all power over him. Therefore he is as though there was no redemption made, being an enemy to God; and also is the devil an enemy to God. (Mosiah 16:11)

[anatess2]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

So, how do you interpret this scripture-

5 But remember that he that persists in his own carnal nature, and goes on in the ways of sin and rebellion against God, remaineth in his fallen state and the devil hath all power over him. Therefore he is as though there was no redemption made, being an enemy to God; and also is the devil an enemy to God. (Mosiah 16:11)

So you're saying that these people who are responsible for making same sex marriage legal have persisted in their own carnal nature and so Christ has no power over them anymore?  No more repentance and the atonement?  

There's this phrase - unrighteous judgment.

 

[Rob Osborn]

31 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

So you're saying that these people who are responsible for making same sex marriage legal have persisted in their own carnal nature and so Christ has no power over them anymore?  No more repentance and the atonement?  

There's this phrase - unrighteous judgment.

 

No, you are missing the point. Thats not what Im saying. I am saying that as we become more evil we allow Satan to have more and more power over our hearts and in consequence we do the devils bidding. These things, such as same sex marriage, are completely the work of darkness.

[anatess2]

4 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

No, you are missing the point. Thats not what Im saying. I am saying that as we become more evil we allow Satan to have more and more power over our hearts and in consequence we do the devils bidding. These things, such as same sex marriage, are completely the work of darkness.

So, just so I understand what you're saying here... what's your opinion about the phrase, "The devil made me do it"?

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

So, just so I understand what you're saying here... what's your opinion about the phrase, "The devil made me do it"?

If one subjects himself to the devil long and hard enough he becomes captive to the will of the devil. In that sense, yes its proper to say something along the lines of the devil made me do it. This doesnt remove responsibility one bit. That sinner is 100% fully to blame. It helps to show though what happens when we choose to be disobedient- we lose our agency to act according to our own true will which is of God and godliness. I have an uncle who is in prison now for a long time because he allowed himself to become subject tge the devils will.

[anatess2]

36 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

If one subjects himself to the devil long and hard enough he becomes captive to the will of the devil. In that sense, yes its proper to say something along the lines of the devil made me do it. This doesnt remove responsibility one bit. That sinner is 100% fully to blame. It helps to show though what happens when we choose to be disobedient- we lose our agency to act according to our own true will which is of God and godliness. I have an uncle who is in prison now for a long time because he allowed himself to become subject tge the devils will.

Ok, I'll take that.  It's not how I look at it but in the end, it's the same.  All I wanted to be sure of is that you're not removing responsibility from people that made gay marriage legal.

[Rob Osborn]

16 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Ok, I'll take that.  It's not how I look at it but in the end, it's the same.  All I wanted to be sure of is that you're not removing responsibility from people that made gay marriage legal.

Fully accountable. Thats why we need to remove them from being judges- they are morally corrupt.

[anatess2]

9 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Fully accountable. Thats why we need to remove them from being judges- they are morally corrupt.

We're trying.