The Fall Of Man

[Traveler]

I thought I would put forth this question. Many times I get the impression that many do not understand the fall of Adam as it relates to man. So I put to the forum the following:

1. What effect did the fall have in heaven?

2. What was the effect of the fall on man?

3. When did the fall take place and who did it effect?

4. Are the effects of the fall only experienced on earth?

5. Was the fall something that needed to happen? Did G-d alter Satan's plan or did Satan alter G-d's plan because of the fall?

6. Beyond overcoming the fall is there any thing else that Jesus did for all mankind that is part of the free gift?

7. Can man be glorified beyond his glory in eden?

8. What is a Cherubum and where in the teachings of Christ (New Testament) will man encounter a cherub and the religious symbols given to the cherubum when man became fallen. Where does man encounter a cherub in their quest to end the fall and reach eternal life (the tree of life)?

The Traveler

[Moksha]

Since the Creation Story was allegory, it would only follow that the fall of Man was allegorical as well. Since seeing the BBC series years ago, I cannot help but like the thought of The Ascent of Man as being much more profound and, in my way of thinking, spiritual as well.

[MadHatter]

I thought I would put forth this question. Many times I get the impression that many do not understand the fall of Adam as it relates to man. So I put to the forum the following:

I love this subject

1. What effect did the fall have in heaven?

It allowed those spirits who were wating to recieve mortal bodies and experience mortaility.

2. What was the effect of the fall on man?

It had an effect on Adam and his progeny. Adam was created with a perfect body quickened by the spirit. when he partook of the fruit it caused death to come into the world. They did not "sin" they "transgressed"

the difference is that a "sin" is done knowing the consequences. and a "transgression" is done not knowing. therefore it brought spiritual death, and blood then flowed through his veins to quicken his body. His spirit could no longer quicken the body because of his spiritual death. The blood that now coursed through his veins was the only thing keeping him alive, hence mortality. Then Adam and eve were able to bare and conceive children.

3. When did the fall take place and who did it effect?

Everyone, it was part of God's plan from the beginning, He knew it woudl happen because it was the only way for us to make our own decisions. it was not forced upon Adam to sin. he was given two conflicting commandments, Multiply, and not partake of the fruit. He had to learn right from wrong himself. But God will never make anyone sin, it has to be his own choice. Why would God allow Adam to make a mistake liek that? because of the Atonement. It would negate Adam's transgression.

4. Are the effects of the fall only experienced on earth?

The only thign that happened because of the fall was Mortality.

5. Was the fall something that needed to happen? Did G-d alter Satan's plan or did Satan alter G-d's plan because of the fall?

Yes it was nessicary, It was all God's plan from the beginning, Satan did not know he would be playing into Heavenly Father's hands. "....I am more intelligent than they all." - from the book of Abraham. no plans were altered it was all put in place.

6. Beyond overcoming the fall is there any thing else that Jesus did for all mankind that is part of the free gift?

Salvation itself. is technically free, it's right there waiting for you to partake of it. but the only free gift given to all nomatter what is resurrection.

7. Can man be glorified beyond his glory in eden?

Man can be glorified to Heavenly Father's Level if he follows his commandments. i suggest reading my post on the degrees of glory for a completel answer to this.

8. What is a Cherubum and where in the teachings of Christ (New Testament) will man encounter a cherub and the religious symbols given to the cherubum when man became fallen. Where does man encounter a cherub in their quest to end the fall and reach eternal life (the tree of life)?

To get specific we need to be in a Temple. Basically there are sentinels guarding God's kingdom. after we are resurrected and if we recieve the Celestial Glory we will have the knowledge for those things in order to pass by them safely.

[CrimsonKairos]

Adam and Eve's transgression was a literal one.

It made them Fall.

They landed on a serpent, crushing its head.

Metaphorically speaking.

B)

[AnthonyB]

Mad Hatter:

If procreation was impossible until after "the fall" then Gen 1:28 must have taken place after the Fall? I struggle to see God saying everything is good, after just having said lots of things are cursed.

Why would part of the fall be, "I'll greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children" If mankind couldn't procreate before the fall?

The bit about "blood" was illuminating, I hadn't really understood LDS nuances on that topic. So did all animals except man have blood before the fall and therefore were mortal but the fall in a way "animalized"

man from being a spirit being to a blood being?

If you interested I've put my answers to the questions on the Christian Belief Board.

[CrimsonKairos]

If procreation was impossible until after "the fall" then Gen 1:28 must have taken place after the Fall?

Gen. 1:28 took place before Adam and Eve were placed in Eden. Notice how Gen. 2:5, 7 both show that God hadn't created man's physical body until after the seventh day of creation. Genesis 1 is descriptive of both our premortal existence with God as spirits before mortality, and the creation of a sanctified earth.

Why would part of the fall be, "I'll greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children" If mankind couldn't procreate before the fall?

Your question doesn't make sense to me. If mankind couldn't procreate before the Fall, then it makes sense that a consequence of the Fall would be the ability to procreate after the Fall. What are you asking here?

So did all animals except man have blood before the fall and therefore were mortal but the fall in a way "animalized" man from being a spirit being to a blood being?

God sanctified the earth on the seventh day, just as He will sanctify the earth after His Son's Second Coming. We know that during the millenial reign of Christ on the earth, there will be no death or sin. Hence, all life on the earth after God sanctified it on the seventh day, was immortal or amortal or not mortal or however you want to describe not being subject to death.

Blood and mortality came not just to Adam but to all life on earth after the Fall.

[AnthonyB]

CK,

Trad Christians generally veiw Gen 2 as a more specific men centered retelling of Gen 1. They are overlapping accounts with different perspectives on events.

The idea that Gen 1 deals with pre-mortal existence is interesting. If Gen 1 deals with pre-mortality, then how does Gen 1:28 and the command to be "fruitful and multiply" fit? It still is being placed before the fall, (IMO) surely it is a command given before the fall but not acted upon till after the fall. (Maybe that is what they should have been doing instead of listening to the serpent.)

I was thinking of the term "greatly increase your pain", it doesn't say you will have pain but that it will "greatly increase" as a result of the fall. Why say "increase" if we weren't capable of it before hand, surely saying "I will give you pain" would make more sense than what I perceive God to be saying which is, "it is going to hurt more than it would have".

It is the blood equates so strongly with mortality, that intrigues me. I just haven't necassarily ever made that link so strngly. I had always seen pneuma/ruarch, as being breathe/spirit and the giving of that is what "quickened" (in the KJV sense) man. Losing that is what causes death to this body. I suppose (IMO) I have always veiwed our resurrected bodies as having blood as did pre-fall Adam.

I am aware that the Bible does say that the life force is in the blood. Jesus also shed His blood for us, but it wasn't until he gave up his spirit that death finally came to Him. I suppose I see blood and spirit both being part of what gives life to man.

[Traveler]

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1. What effect did the fall have in heaven?

It allowed those spirits who were wating to recieve mortal bodies and experience mortaility.

The reason I posted this thread is because I believe many plain and precious truths are glossed over and missed because the saints have lost the art of pondering the scriptures and other spiritual guides given in these Last Days.

I will add some thinking for pondering. I would submit that there was a great change in heaven and even in the very foundations of that wonderful kingdom over which the Father resides. I submit that the law which governs that great and wonderful kingdom was radically altered and a new and everlasting covenant was established. A covenant that placed G-d the Son, even Jesus The Christ as the governing G-d of the new order to which all men (and women) are governed. I submit that even before mortality the laws and covenants of the kingdom of heaven established Jesus as our Mediator with the Father. And in mortality Jesus was established by law and covenant as the light to the “world” by which all things of eternity and righteousness are discovered, learned practiced and sealed upon those that prepare to receive the same.

The Traveler

[MadHatter]

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<div class='quotemain'>

1. What effect did the fall have in heaven?

It allowed those spirits who were wating to recieve mortal bodies and experience mortaility.

The reason I posted this thread is because I believe many plain and precious truths are glossed over and missed because the saints have lost the art of pondering the scriptures and other spiritual guides given in these Last Days.

I will add some thinking for pondering. I would submit that there was a great change in heaven and even in the very foundations of that wonderful kingdom over which the Father resides. I submit that the law which governs that great and wonderful kingdom was radically altered and a new and everlasting covenant was established. A covenant that placed G-d the Son, even Jesus The Christ as the governing G-d of the new order to which all men (and women) are governed. I submit that even before mortality the laws and covenants of the kingdom of heaven established Jesus as our Mediator with the Father. And in mortality Jesus was established by law and covenant as the light to the “world” by which all things of eternity and righteousness are discovered, learned practiced and sealed upon those that prepare to receive the same.

The Traveler

When the world was created all things were put into place and the "Godhead" was formed, each member has vital roles to play and would have the ability to choose. Christ's Gospel is God's gospel, God's Gospel has existed EONS before the world was even conceived of. The everlasting covenant of marriage has been in place before God existed, otherwise he would not be God, he would have been a Ministering angel had he not abide the everlasting covenant of marriage.

Covenants were formed as part of the creation, which Abraham saw in a vision when God showed unto him the Intelligences that were formed before the world was. Those covenants would be given in mortality if people did what they were commanded to do.

There is a Law irrevocably decreed in heaven in which all blessings are predicated on, it is by obedience to the commandments in which we are given blessings. this is the nature of a covenant.

AnthonyB,

No Adam and eve could not procreate because they were not mortal. they could in nowise produce mortal bodies of their own accord. They had to sin, to become mortal, to have the spiritual death enter into the world.

I do not know what about the animals, and in particular, it does not matter. All animals are given simple commandments in which they obey based off instincts.

The scripture actually reads in the K.J.V. of the Bible as ".....greatly multiply thy sorrow, and thy conception." This scripture shows that their fall led to being able to create life. They were naked in the garden and "were not ashamed" they did not know of sin, or of lust, or of the true nature of joy, love and happiness because they had never experience pain, misery, or sorrow.

We are in a spiritual death state, we are cut off from the presence of our Heavenly Father, baptism by "fire" (receiving the gift of the holy ghost) in essence revives that spirit, allowing it to come back into the presence of our Heavenly Father. It is baptism by fire in which our spirits are able to be cleansed through repentance and the atonement of Jesus Christ. in essence it is a cleansing fire to our spirits.

Blood, is the mortal life force, our spirits cannot sustain our body. Blood is corruptible and decays and dies. metaphorically you can think of it as blood carries our sins physically, our spirits carry them spiritually.

[CrimsonKairos]

Trad Christians generally veiw Gen 2 as a more specific men centered retelling of Gen 1.

I know, but that seems a bit too convenient. The best evidence for the premortal existence of mankinds' spirits is the only part of the creation story that's a "flashback" and chronologically out of place? Not saying you can't believe that, just saying that I don't see the text as supporting the idea that it's a "flashback."

If Gen 1 deals with pre-mortality, then how does Gen 1:28 and the command to be "fruitful and multiply" fit?

In my view, this would be along the lines of God teaching us all the Plan of Salvation before we were born. After He had created our spirits, He taught us His plan to bring us all the happiness He has. Procreation was to be part of that plan. In other words, I don't see it as a, "You must procreate now," command, but more of a, "If you accept this plan, and go to the earth I will create for you, you must procreate to bring spirits into the world."

(Maybe that is what they should have been doing instead of listening to the serpent.)

No doubt.

I was thinking of the term "greatly increase your pain"...Why say "increase" if we weren't capable of it before hand, surely saying "I will give you pain" would make more sense than what I perceive God to be saying which is, "it is going to hurt more than it would have".

You can look at it that way, sure. I read it as God saying, "Your life as a mortal will be painful and hard. And I'm going to increase/multiply that painful existence by the process of childbirth."

I am aware that the Bible does say that the life force is in the blood. Jesus also shed His blood for us, but it wasn't until he gave up his spirit that death finally came to Him. I suppose I see blood and spirit both being part of what gives life to man.

Blood and spirit are both important, it is true. Look at it this way:

Someone in a deep coma can have healthy organs, a beating heart, and blood circulating oxygen and nutrients throughout their body, but without their spirit inside their body to animate it, is such a physical "shell" really "alive?"

Conversely, you can have a spirit inside a physical body, but without blood to oxygenate the muscles and brain, the body cannot function or operate, even if the spirit inside wants it to.

What leads you to believe resurrected bodies will have blood in them? Or is it just a personal feeling you have?

[AnthonyB]

Thanks for the replies.

Madhatter,

My main question would be, if Gen 1 is talking about pre-body creation of man, and Gen 2 is talking about the bodily creation and beginning of mortality, then why was Gen 1:28, the command to go forth and multiply, given to pre-mortals? If pre-mortal (ie pre-fall humans) were incapable of procreating, then the command would have been nonsensical to them.

What does procreation have to do with being ashamed or lusting? Or being in a fallen state and not knowing joy or sorrow. If they had a commandment from God to do something wouldn't God have given them the ability to carry it out?

As for the KJV version of Gen 3:16 differing from the NIV. I will do some study to work out why.

[Gabelma]

I don't know how much of scripture is literal or just story, maybe Abraham didn't exist but what I do know is Heavenly Father gave it to us to know more about him, I think we need to take all scripture allegorically AND literally in order to get what he wants us to know. I firmly believe the Bible at various times was edited so precious and sacred teachings wouldn't be removed.

That said have you read CS Lewis' Mars Trilogy? The middle book Perelandra is set on a plant where the fall does not occur -the Eve character is taught about sin from a man from Earth, makes very interesting reading. I don't think Earth needed to fall for Gods plan to happen I think Adam and Eve could have come out of their ignorance naturally - just like as we can now learn an awful lot by sinning, wisdom can be obtained much quicker from doing wrong sometimes than years of right can teach you - however you can learn wisdom being always right the Saviour did. Nobody made Satan sin and nobody made Adam and Eve transgress - I am sure if they hadn't the world would have kept progressing

I know that people assume Adam and Eve couldn't procreate in the Garden of Eden personally I feel it was more they didn't for whatever reason maybe they didn't know how there is the often told fable among nurses which involves the punchline 'i get it in her belly button everytime' That couple could physically have children but weren't because they didn't know how

Yes our glory will progress, we are progressing, just like our Heavenly Father.

Concerning Angels i believe are like the spirts in Christmas Carol _ Some are those that have been, some are yet to come and some are very much mortal and are present on Earth with us>

-Charley

didn'

[MadHatter]

Thanks for the replies.

Madhatter,

My main question would be, if Gen 1 is talking about pre-body creation of man, and Gen 2 is talking about the bodily creation and beginning of mortality, then why was Gen 1:28, the command to go forth and multiply, given to pre-mortals? If pre-mortal (ie pre-fall humans) were incapable of procreating, then the command would have been nonsensical to them.

What does procreation have to do with being ashamed or lusting? Or being in a fallen state and not knowing joy or sorrow. If they had a commandment from God to do something wouldn't God have given them the ability to carry it out?

As for the KJV version of Gen 3:16 differing from the NIV. I will do some study to work out why.

The commandments were given to be contrary to one another. God gave them two conflicting commandments and made them choose what to do. It was part of the plan because Adam HAD to fall. otherwise he would still be a perfect and innocent being. It was part of the plan. in the book of Mormon, it says "Adam fell that men might be; Men are that they might have joy."

God could not force Adam to sin because it would take away Adam's free-agency. God created their bodies to be perfect because God is a perfect being and does not create imperfection. God created Mankind himself, Christ created Everything except man under the direction of God. Then God came down and did the last part himself with Christ there.

[Old Tex]

In the Genisis 1/Genisis 2 discussions I haven't seen it mentioned that Genisis 1 is the spiritual creation and Genisis 2 is the temporal creation. The Lord said that he created all things spiritually before He created them temporally. This is why it appears that some things are duplicated.

[Gillebre]

God did provide for Adam a way to obey His commandments.

The first was to multiply and fill the earth. They couldn't keep that commadment while immortal, they couldn't keep that commandment while they abstained from the fruit.

The second was to not partake of the fruit. Contradictory, with the intent that the latter will be transgressed, so that all righteousness might be fulfilled.

Make sense?

It's all in the Plan.

[CrimsonKairos]

I don't think Earth needed to fall for Gods plan to happen I think Adam and Eve could have come out of their ignorance naturally...

Only problem with that theory is that the scriptures say the opposite.

22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.

23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

24 But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.

25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy. (2 Ne. 2:22-25)

[Old Tex]

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I don't think Earth needed to fall for Gods plan to happen I think Adam and Eve could have come out of their ignorance naturally...

Only problem with that theory is that the scriptures say the opposite.

22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.

23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

24 But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.

25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy. (2 Ne. 2:22-25)

The "traditional" Christian world has very little understanding of who Adam was and what his role was in the Plan of Salvation. I've heard some pretty tough sermons against him in my former Baptist church. He gets blamed for everything that's bad that Satan himself don't get blamed for. Latter day Saints, because of modern day revelation, are blessed to know who our first parents really are, and what they really did for us, and pay them the respect and appreciation that they deserve.

[AnthonyB]

CrimsonKairos,

Thankyou for your illuminating reply, if the post seem out of order my last one was being written whilst you posted your one.

As for having "blood" in our resurrected bodies. It is just an assumption on the fact that I've always seen us as fully perfected humans and that would include having blood.

I'm beginning to understand how this part of your "plan of slavation" hangs together. The only slightly negative tone is that it means that procreation is only possible due to transgression, and therefore casting a slightly negative slant to it.

[CrimsonKairos]

Gotcha.

[MadHatter]

CrimsonKairos,

Thankyou for your illuminating reply, if the post seem out of order my last one was being written whilst you posted your one.

As for having "blood" in our resurrected bodies. It is just an assumption on the fact that I've always seen us as fully perfected humans and that would include having blood.

I'm beginning to understand how this part of your "plan of slavation" hangs together. The only slightly negative tone is that it means that procreation is only possible due to transgression, and therefore casting a slightly negative slant to it.

Resurrected beings do not have blood, thier spriits are whole and able to quicken the body of thier own accord, our physical perfected bodies are "flesh and bone" not "flesh and blood"

Procreation s not only possible due to transgression. if Adam and eve had procreated they would have created spirit children. mortal procreation is for us to mantain the family stucture and for all of those spirits whoa re waiting, to obtain bodies, which is why God has given commandments regarding Chastity. It is a sacred gift for us to bare and rear children. and having promiscuous sex and engaging in sexual perversions is a mockery of it to God and his plan of salvation for the family.

[AnthonyB]

CrimsonKairos,

As for the "flashback" thing, yes it is convient but I don't know whether (IMO) it is unsubstantiated. In the the NIV there is a phrase, "this is the account of...." which delineates Genesis into various stories. (Sorry I'm not a KJV reader, so I don't know the KJV equivalent phrase.) There appears to be certain amount of restating done at the beginning of each new story. Genealogies or facts necessary for the new story are stated even if they have just been included in the previous one.

Old_Tex,

I'd agree that Adam and Eve don't get a lot of respect in many churches. (I can see how the LDS take on things changes their roles.) God did command us to "honour your father and mother" and I think they deserve far more honour than they are usually accorded. ( A bit like how Mary (Jesus' Mother) is greatly ignored by most Protestants, I don't think I've ever heard a sermon specifically about her in my life.)

When we get a chance could you (as a former bapo) do a post on how you got off the "faith-facts-feeling" train? (I'm currently working on a post for a-train about personal revelations verses written revelation (I keep rewritting and thinking about it, and trying to stop it getting too long) as I think that appears to be something very distinctive in the LDS worldveiw)

Madhatter,

I'll look into the "flesh and bone" thing. It isn't something I have done a lot of thinking about.

As for "promiscuity and perversions", I'm not sure if your aiming that at me, is there anything I've said that would lead you to think that I didn't support Jesus expansion on the OT chastity laws then can I reassure you that I believe in one woman for life to the exclusion of all others, celibacy outside marriage and fidelity within. I'm the father of three children (to the one wife), one of whom has gone on before me. I'd agree rearing children (I can't bare them) is a sacred gift. I have committed in a dedication ceremony (at home) to bring my sons up in the Lord. I pray for and with my sons every night. My eldest son (4 years) is read a section from a kids devotional bible every night and has been since he was around 2. Of course whether he decides to follow the Lord is up to him when he reaches an age of understanding but I try to ensure that hopefully he sees in me the image of my Father God.

I certainly wasn't mocking your beliefs or standards just asking questions (I see somethings I like in your beleifs and somethings that confound my understanding.), as someone from a different christian tradition. If some of my questions seem odd, please excuse that I'm not LDS and your veiws are as alien to me as mine probably are to you. I do attempt in this section of this board to center my questions on your faith and minimize the amount of my opinions I give, however to explain my questions I sometimes have to give some indication of where they are coming from. Thanks for your responses, I hope my presence and questions and lack of knowledge of your beliefs aren't too exasperating!

[Traveler]

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<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>

1. What effect did the fall have in heaven?

It allowed those spirits who were wating to recieve mortal bodies and experience mortaility.

The reason I posted this thread is because I believe many plain and precious truths are glossed over and missed because the saints have lost the art of pondering the scriptures and other spiritual guides given in these Last Days.

I will add some thinking for pondering. I would submit that there was a great change in heaven and even in the very foundations of that wonderful kingdom over which the Father resides. I submit that the law which governs that great and wonderful kingdom was radically altered and a new and everlasting covenant was established. A covenant that placed G-d the Son, even Jesus The Christ as the governing G-d of the new order to which all men (and women) are governed. I submit that even before mortality the laws and covenants of the kingdom of heaven established Jesus as our Mediator with the Father. And in mortality Jesus was established by law and covenant as the light to the “world” by which all things of eternity and righteousness are discovered, learned practiced and sealed upon those that prepare to receive the same.

The Traveler

When the world was created all things were put into place and the "Godhead" was formed, each member has vital roles to play and would have the ability to choose. Christ's Gospel is God's gospel, God's Gospel has existed EONS before the world was even conceived of. The everlasting covenant of marriage has been in place before God existed, otherwise he would not be God, he would have been a Ministering angel had he not abide the everlasting covenant of marriage.

Covenants were formed as part of the creation, which Abraham saw in a vision when God showed unto him the Intelligences that were formed before the world was. Those covenants would be given in mortality if people did what they were commanded to do.

There is a Law irrevocably decreed in heaven in which all blessings are predicated on, it is by obedience to the commandments in which we are given blessings. this is the nature of a covenant.

I am not sure you thought this out real carefully:

Christ's Gospel is God's gospel, God's Gospel has existed EONS before the world was even conceived of.

Point. The world (it conception and creation is a very intergral part of G-d's gospel. Neither the world nor G-d's plan can exist without the other.

The everlasting covenant of marriage has been in place before God existed, otherwise he would not be God, he would have been a Ministering angel had he not abide the everlasting covenant of marriage.

Perhaps you are in part correct - but the Father was the only one that was parpared for, understood and participated in the marriage covenant - Beyond the Father this covenant did not exist nor could it exist in the pre-fall heaven.

Covenants were formed as part of the creation

Not exactly - the creation spoken of in scripture was itself the result of a covenant. One of the interpertations of first of Genesis is not "In the Beginning" but "When G-d first established his covenant G-d created the heavens and the earth"

There is a Law irrevocably decreed in heaven in which all blessings are predicated on

I think your use is a little out of context - Did not Jesus testify that the sun is made to sign on the wicked as well as the righteous?

I keep attempting to make the point that no one seems to understand - that is that the fall of man brought to pass a new order (covenant) in heaven that prior to the fall did not nor could not exist.

The Traveler

[MadHatter]

CrimsonKairos,

As for the "flashback" thing, yes it is convient but I don't know whether (IMO) it is unsubstantiated. In the the NIV there is a phrase, "this is the account of...." which delineates Genesis into various stories. (Sorry I'm not a KJV reader, so I don't know the KJV equivalent phrase.) There appears to be certain amount of restating done at the beginning of each new story. Genealogies or facts necessary for the new story are stated even if they have just been included in the previous one.

Old_Tex,

I'd agree that Adam and Eve don't get a lot of respect in many churches. (I can see how the LDS take on things changes their roles.) God did command us to "honour your father and mother" and I think they deserve far more honour than they are usually accorded. ( A bit like how Mary (Jesus' Mother) is greatly ignored by most Protestants, I don't think I've ever heard a sermon specifically about her in my life.)

When we get a chance could you (as a former bapo) do a post on how you got off the "faith-facts-feeling" train? (I'm currently working on a post for a-train about personal revelations verses written revelation (I keep rewritting and thinking about it, and trying to stop it getting too long) as I think that appears to be something very distinctive in the LDS worldveiw)

Madhatter,

I'll look into the "flesh and bone" thing. It isn't something I have done a lot of thinking about.

As for "promiscuity and perversions", I'm not sure if your aiming that at me, is there anything I've said that would lead you to think that I didn't support Jesus expansion on the OT chastity laws then can I reassure you that I believe in one woman for life to the exclusion of all others, celibacy outside marriage and fidelity within. I'm the father of three children (to the one wife), one of whom has gone on before me. I'd agree rearing children (I can't bare them) is a sacred gift. I have committed in a dedication ceremony (at home) to bring my sons up in the Lord. I pray for and with my sons every night. My eldest son (4 years) is read a section from a kids devotional bible every night and has been since he was around 2. Of course whether he decides to follow the Lord is up to him when he reaches an age of understanding but I try to ensure that hopefully he sees in me the image of my Father God.

I certainly wasn't mocking your beliefs or standards just asking questions (I see somethings I like in your beleifs and somethings that confound my understanding.), as someone from a different christian tradition. If some of my questions seem odd, please excuse that I'm not LDS and your veiws are as alien to me as mine probably are to you. I do attempt in this section of this board to center my questions on your faith and minimize the amount of my opinions I give, however to explain my questions I sometimes have to give some indication of where they are coming from. Thanks for your responses, I hope my presence and questions and lack of knowledge of your beliefs aren't too exasperating!

No no, I was not pointing anyone out. If i use the terms "you" or "us" or naything like that in this subject i really mean "everyone" sorry if it sounded liek that. Also, it is not exasperating to discuss my religion, in fact I love it. i like good questions.

[MadHatter]

I am not sure you thought this out real carefully:

I Was in a hurry so maybe not.

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Christ's Gospel is God's gospel, God's Gospel has existed EONS before the world was even conceived of.

Point. The world (it conception and creation is a very intergral part of G-d's gospel. Neither the world nor G-d's plan can exist without the other.

Yes, in fact God's plan existed before the world began. The planning and preparations for the Earth were part of his plans indeed. But, God's plan is a never ending cycle, His works will not cease when this world ends, nor will his plan, he will continue his plan with a new world, a new earth with different spirit children, and also those of us who make it to the celestial kingdom will be part of our own plan for our own progeny which will more than likely mimic God's plan. The point Being his plan ahs always been hsi plan, with or without this world.

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The everlasting covenant of marriage has been in place before God existed, otherwise he would not be God, he would have been a Ministering angel had he not abide the everlasting covenant of marriage.

Perhaps you are in part correct - but the Father was the only one that was parpared for, understood and participated in the marriage covenant - Beyond the Father this covenant did not exist nor could it exist in the pre-fall heaven.

God has a body of flesh and Bone, which means he was once mortal and once resurrected. Which means he has a Heavenly Father. and so forth and so on, His life is eternal and his works is one eternal round, who know how many eons and how many Heavenly Fathers there are.

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Covenants were formed as part of the creation

Not exactly - the creation spoken of in scripture was itself the result of a covenant. One of the interpertations of first of Genesis is not "In the Beginning" but "When G-d first established his covenant G-d created the heavens and the earth"

Certain covenants were indeed formed as part of the creation of the earth. the Covenants given to those who were foreordained to become Prophets and leaders of God's children. covenenats were made that if we keep our first and second estate that we will recieve Heavenly Father's glory and eternal life.

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There is a Law irrevocably decreed in heaven in which all blessings are predicated on

I think your use is a little out of context - Did not Jesus testify that the sun is made to sign on the wicked as well as the righteous?

D&C 130:

20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—

21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

my point is that laws and covenants were made before the world was thought of and brought into existence.

I keep attempting to make the point that no one seems to understand - that is that the fall of man brought to pass a new order (covenant) in heaven that prior to the fall did not nor could not exist.

The fall of man did not bring to pass a New covenant in heaven. Only on this earth for those of us on this earth. the fall of man had no effect on heaven aside from allowing those spirit children to obtain bodies. the covenant was already made. the Fall of Man was neccicary and planned, because also redemtion was planned, Salvation through the great mediator Jesus Christ. it was all part of the plan. "Creation, Fall, and Atonement."

[Traveler]

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I keep attempting to make the point that no one seems to understand - that is that the fall of man brought to pass a new order (covenant) in heaven that prior to the fall did not nor could not exist.

The fall of man did not bring to pass a New covenant in heaven. Only on this earth for those of us on this earth. the fall of man had no effect on heaven aside from allowing those spirit children to obtain bodies. the covenant was already made. the Fall of Man was neccicary and planned, because also redemtion was planned, Salvation through the great mediator Jesus Christ. it was all part of the plan. "Creation, Fall, and Atonement."

Are you sure there were no new covenants in heaven because of the fall? - how was it that the fall came upon all men - only upon their birth? And another question about symbolism - What do we learn in the temple - After the fall did the Father speak to any of the angles or was that left only to Jesus?

In the book of Job - When Satan addressed the L-rd of heaven that was sitting as the king of heaven on his thrown – to who did he address his remarks – the Father or the Son? Had not Satan been excommunicated from the Kingdom and the thrown of the Father?

Do you understand the ancient law of Kingdoms and the law of Suzerain and servant vassal relationships as it relates to the covenants of the citizens of the kingdom? For example does the apointing of a servant vassal as a mediator change any previous covenants? When do such covenant changes take effect?

One last question - the term Messiah means anointed - what is the purpose of an anointing in regards to covenants? Is the Messiah the Messiah only on earth or the Messiah of heaven and earth?

The Traveler