The Fall Of Man

[MadHatter]

Are you sure there were no new covenants in heaven because of the fall? - how was it that the fall came upon all men - only upon their birth? And another question about symbolism - What do we learn in the temple - After the fall did the Father speak to any of the angles or was that left only to Jesus?

In the book of Job - When Satan addressed the L-rd of heaven that was sitting as the king of heaven on his thrown – to who did he address his remarks – the Father or the Son? Had not Satan been excommunicated from the Kingdom and the thrown of the Father?

Do you understand the ancient law of Kingdoms and the law of Suzerain and servant vassal relationships as it relates to the covenants of the citizens of the kingdom? For example does the apointing of a servant vassal as a mediator change any previous covenants? When do such covenant changes take effect?

One last question - the term Messiah means anointed - what is the purpose of an anointing in regards to covenants? Is the Messiah the Messiah only on earth or the Messiah of heaven and earth?

The Traveler

The Fall was a foreordained event. It was not some "unforeseen mishap"

The prophet Joseph Smith states that "the great Jehovah contemplate the whole of the events connected with the earth, pertaining to the plan of salvation, before it rolled into existence.... He knew of the Fall of Adam.... He comprehended the Fall of man, and [also] his redemption"

The Apostle Peter taught the saints of his day that Jesus Christ "was foreordained before the foundation of the world" to be the redeemer.

1 Pet. 1:20

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

There would have been no reason for this fore ordination unless it was known in premortal times that mankind would need to be rescued from a fallen state.The Book of Mormon teaches that everything was done in the Wisdom of God.

The plan of salvation could not have gone forward without the Fall.

2 Ne. 2:

22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.

In other words, there would have been no progression.

Elder Orson F. Whitney said:

Adam's Fall was a step downward, but it was also a step forward - a step in the eternal march of human progress."

Elder John A. Widrose likewise sates -

Subject to death [Adam and Eve] must become,...[so that] their posterity [could] inherit corruptible bodies. The fall, then, was a deliberate use of law, by which Adam and Eve became mortal, and could beget mortal children.

President Brigham Young remarked that it was his fullest belief that the Lord's design for Adam to partake of the forbidden fruit in the garden.

I believe that Adam knew all about it before he came to earth.... I believe there was no other way leading to thrones and dominions only for him to transgress, or to take that position which transgression alone could place man in, to descend below all things, that they might ascend to thrones, principalities, and powers; for they could not ascend to that eminence without first descending, nor upon any other principle.

(Journal of Discourses 2:302)

The spirit from the eternal worlds enters the tabernacle at the time of what is termed quickening, and forgets all it formerly knew. It descends below all things, as Jesus did. All beings, to be crowned with crowns of glory and eternal lives, must in their infantile weakness begin, with regard to their trials, the day of their probation; they must descend below all things, in order to ascend above all things. JoD 6:333

[Traveler]

<div class='quotemain'>

Are you sure there were no new covenants in heaven because of the fall? - how was it that the fall came upon all men - only upon their birth? And another question about symbolism - What do we learn in the temple - After the fall did the Father speak to any of the angles or was that left only to Jesus?

In the book of Job - When Satan addressed the L-rd of heaven that was sitting as the king of heaven on his thrown – to who did he address his remarks – the Father or the Son? Had not Satan been excommunicated from the Kingdom and the thrown of the Father?

Do you understand the ancient law of Kingdoms and the law of Suzerain and servant vassal relationships as it relates to the covenants of the citizens of the kingdom? For example does the apointing of a servant vassal as a mediator change any previous covenants? When do such covenant changes take effect?

One last question - the term Messiah means anointed - what is the purpose of an anointing in regards to covenants? Is the Messiah the Messiah only on earth or the Messiah of heaven and earth?

The Traveler

The Fall was a foreordained event. It was not some "unforeseen mishap"

The prophet Joseph Smith states that "the great Jehovah contemplate the whole of the events connected with the earth, pertaining to the plan of salvation, before it rolled into existence.... He knew of the Fall of Adam.... He comprehended the Fall of man, and [also] his redemption"

The Apostle Peter taught the saints of his day that Jesus Christ "was foreordained before the foundation of the world" to be the redeemer.

1 Pet. 1:20

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

There would have been no reason for this fore ordination unless it was known in premortal times that mankind would need to be rescued from a fallen state.The Book of Mormon teaches that everything was done in the Wisdom of God.

The plan of salvation could not have gone forward without the Fall.

2 Ne. 2:

22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.

In other words, there would have been no progression.

Elder Orson F. Whitney said:

Adam's Fall was a step downward, but it was also a step forward - a step in the eternal march of human progress."

Elder John A. Widrose likewise sates -

Subject to death [Adam and Eve] must become,...[so that] their posterity [could] inherit corruptible bodies. The fall, then, was a deliberate use of law, by which Adam and Eve became mortal, and could beget mortal children.

President Brigham Young remarked that it was his fullest belief that the Lord's design for Adam to partake of the forbidden fruit in the garden.

I believe that Adam knew all about it before he came to earth.... I believe there was no other way leading to thrones and dominions only for him to transgress, or to take that position which transgression alone could place man in, to descend below all things, that they might ascend to thrones, principalities, and powers; for they could not ascend to that eminence without first descending, nor upon any other principle.

(Journal of Discourses 2:302)

The spirit from the eternal worlds enters the tabernacle at the time of what is termed quickening, and forgets all it formerly knew. It descends below all things, as Jesus did. All beings, to be crowned with crowns of glory and eternal lives, must in their infantile weakness begin, with regard to their trials, the day of their probation; they must descend below all things, in order to ascend above all things. JoD 6:333

Your quotes are interesting - but you seem to avoid my question. So I will ask again in another way - Isaiah tells us - "line upon line upon line upon line, precept upon precept upon precept upon precept. Is this a type and a shadow to teach us of making covenant with G-d? Do we start or begin to covenant with Baptism and then in time make greater covenant that pertain to greater laws and commandments?

And so I ask - did the covenants of heaven change according to the line upon line upon line, precept upon precept upon precept - was this just added in for the fun of it or was this never really a true concept in that nothing has ever changed?

The Traveler

[MadHatter]

Line upon line precept upon precept is for our mortal understanding of the gospel, I;m sure it is also the same in the pre-existence.

Mortality itself was a covenant that if we keep it, we will gain our exaltation as a reward.

I;m not sure what you mean by "Type and Shadow"

We began to covenant with God before the earth began, baptism is one of our mortal covenants. and is the first step towards greater mortal covenants which we will take with us after we die.

The covenants did not Change, they were just added upon. line UPON line, not "line instead of line" meaning as we make and keep covenants we are given the privilege of making and keeping more covenants "line upon line"

Baptism is in the similitude of death and resurrection. Our mortal covenants existed before the world began but we could not take upon ourselves those covenants because we were not mortal, nor were we in a fallen state. it was not just "for the fun of it" to see people get "dunked" in water or whatever. It has been the plan all along, to take things one step at a time, Just as our Father in Heaven once did.

[Traveler]

Line upon line precept upon precept is for our mortal understanding of the gospel, I;m sure it is also the same in the pre-existence.

Mortality itself was a covenant that if we keep it, we will gain our exaltation as a reward.

I;m not sure what you mean by "Type and Shadow"

We began to covenant with God before the earth began, baptism is one of our mortal covenants. and is the first step towards greater mortal covenants which we will take with us after we die.

The covenants did not Change, they were just added upon. line UPON line, not "line instead of line" meaning as we make and keep covenants we are given the privilege of making and keeping more covenants "line upon line"

Baptism is in the similitude of death and resurrection. Our mortal covenants existed before the world began but we could not take upon ourselves those covenants because we were not mortal, nor were we in a fallen state. it was not just "for the fun of it" to see people get "dunked" in water or whatever. It has been the plan all along, to take things one step at a time, Just as our Father in Heaven once did.

A covenant is between two parties. Prior to the fall the covenants of heaven were established with G-d and man. After the fall the covenants of heaven are still established with man but my point is that if there is no change then there was no fall. But alas I cannot speak to that which a person cannot see or understand.

How someone can teach man has fallen into that which has not changed leaves me wondering what we are talking about.

The Traveler

[a-train]

I thought I would put forth this question. Many times I get the impression that many do not understand the fall of Adam as it relates to man. So I put to the forum the following:

1. What effect did the fall have in heaven?

The fall gave the spirits in heaven the opportunity to be born on earth.

2. What was the effect of the fall on man?

All of earth's inhabitants became mortal and seperate from God's Presence. The laws of nature became what we know them to be now. Before the fall, they were in a much higher and more paradisical state of which we know very little.

3. When did the fall take place and who did it effect?

All we know is that the fall occured some time in what we would typically call prehistory.

4. Are the effects of the fall only experienced on earth?

See #2

5. Was the fall something that needed to happen? Did G-d alter Satan's plan or did Satan alter G-d's plan because of the fall?

The fall was necessary for man to learn good and evil. Satan has no plan, he was used like a pawn in the hand of the Almighty.

6. Beyond overcoming the fall is there any thing else that Jesus did for all mankind that is part of the free gift?

Virtually everything Jesus has done since the fall could be considered 'overcoming the fall'.

7. Can man be glorified beyond his glory in eden?

We are not told, but I would not doubt it. Understand that the glory in Eden was not accompanied by a knowledge of good and evil or a great posterity.

8. What is a Cherubum and where in the teachings of Christ (New Testament) will man encounter a cherub and the religious symbols given to the cherubum when man became fallen. Where does man encounter a cherub in their quest to end the fall and reach eternal life (the tree of life)?

If I understand correctly, Cherubim are Messengers of the LORD who stand in a specific capacity to act as sentinels. Man will need to pass them in order to enter God's Presence. Only they who wield the flaming sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God (Eph 6:17), which in its truth cuts to the heart (Mos 13:7), which circumcizes the heart with fire (Hel. 5:45), which power and word is unto all (D&C 93:49), can pass these sentinels and enter God's Presence.

-a-train

[Old Tex]

A covenant is between two parties. Prior to the fall the covenants of heaven were established with G-d and man. After the fall the covenants of heaven are still established with man but my point is that if there is no change then there was no fall.

Bold above is mine..... Traveler, I have followed your discussion with Madhatter closely and must admit that it leaves me in confusion also. My understanding parallels what Madhatter has posted, although in some areas I think he has made some conclusions by extrapolation (which, neverless, may be true) instead of hard doctrine.

I think that you are saying above that if there were no change (or changes) in the covenants made during their premortal existence between the Father and his spirit children, then Adam could not have set the stage (via the "fall") for their entrance into the fallen mortal world by taking on bodies composed of mortal elements.

If I have this right, would you point out which covenants made in the pre-fall period had to be changed before the fall could take place? We are all trying to understand the point you are attempting to make.

Thanks, Old Tex

[Guest bizabra]

MADHATTER SAYS: It had an effect on Adam and his progeny. Adam was created with a perfect body quickened by the spirit. when he partook of the fruit it caused death to come into the world. They did not "sin" they "transgressed"

the difference is that a "sin" is done knowing the consequences. and a "transgression" is done not knowing. therefore it brought spiritual death, and blood then flowed through his veins to quicken his body. His spirit could no longer quicken the body because of his spiritual death. The blood that now coursed through his veins was the only thing keeping him alive, hence mortality. Then Adam and eve were able to bare and conceive children.

BIZ: This is amusing, thanks for the laugh!

Of course, the bible is nothing BUT allegory and metaphor. One can learn a lot about human nature, how to live a civil life, and various other tidbits about humans and how we can and should relate to one another, but to believe it to be a LITERALLY TRUE document is pretty goofy and leads to people making these kinds of weird speculative statements.

Again, thanks for the morning giggle.

[Old Tex]

BIZ: This is amusing, thanks for the laugh!

Of course, the bible is nothing BUT allegory and metaphor. One can learn a lot about human nature, how to live a civil life, and various other tidbits about humans and how we can and should relate to one another, but to believe it to be a LITERALLY TRUE document is pretty goofy and leads to people making these kinds of weird speculative statements. Again, thanks for the morning giggle.

Tell you what Biz, let's continue this conversation in a hundred years and consider your theory then. Maybe I will be able to introduce you around to some of these metaphorical folks.

[Traveler]

<div class='quotemain'> A covenant is between two parties. Prior to the fall the covenants of heaven were established with G-d and man. After the fall the covenants of heaven are still established with man but my point is that if there is no change then there was no fall.

Bold above is mine..... Traveler, I have followed your discussion with Madhatter closely and must admit that it leaves me in confusion also. My understanding parallels what Madhatter has posted, although in some areas I think he has made some conclusions by extrapolation (which, neverless, may be true) instead of hard doctrine.

I think that you are saying above that if there were no change (or changes) in the covenants made during their premortal existence between the Father and his spirit children, then Adam could not have set the stage (via the "fall") for their entrance into the fallen mortal world by taking on bodies composed of mortal elements.

If I have this right, would you point out which covenants made in the pre-fall period had to be changed before the fall could take place? We are all trying to understand the point you are attempting to make.

Thanks, Old Tex

Thank you for your interest:

There are several covenant changes that took place and had immediate effect upon all mankind and the structure of heaven:

First: The divine relationship, status and rights man (as spirit children) had with the Father were made null and void.

Second: The Son became our covenant Sovereign,

Third: Our right to and heir-ness to divine priesthood of the Father was lost (in reality this is a more detailed explanation of the First item).

These covenant changes were necessary in order that man have a mortal (blood) experience. This is why blood was required by covenant in order to have a just covenant with the Mediator G-d, Jesus Christ – the G-d of the Old Testament (or Old covenant). Prior to Jesus the blood covenant was a type and shadow that was completed (or fulfilled – also called “made perfect”) by a divine and eternal blood sacrifice.

This change was not just the choice of Adam but of all the children of Adam that enjoyed the divine presents and protections of the Father. Those that refused this covenant change established their covenants and priesthoods through Lucifer and established a kingdom in which Lucifer was Sovereign. Those that accepted the plan of a change in covenants and priesthoods established The Son as their covenant Sovereign.

In essence, all the covenant children of the Father and heirs to him were set on courses that removed them as citizens of the Kingdom of the Father (which is represented in the Eden Epoch as the Tree of Life). It is interesting to note that the symbolism of “Cherubim” is a plural reverence and not a singular reference and many seem to think. Although this has important repercussions to covenants and the eternal scheme of things few seem to understand or care about this symbolism.

The Fall of Man is a gateway concept to all the covenants, doctrines, commandments and ordinances included in the Gospel of Jesus Christ – yet it is one of the most miss-understood principles of religion addressed in our modern times.

The Traveler

[MadHatter]

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'> A covenant is between two parties. Prior to the fall the covenants of heaven were established with G-d and man. After the fall the covenants of heaven are still established with man but my point is that if there is no change then there was no fall.

Bold above is mine..... Traveler, I have followed your discussion with Madhatter closely and must admit that it leaves me in confusion also. My understanding parallels what Madhatter has posted, although in some areas I think he has made some conclusions by extrapolation (which, neverless, may be true) instead of hard doctrine.

I think that you are saying above that if there were no change (or changes) in the covenants made during their premortal existence between the Father and his spirit children, then Adam could not have set the stage (via the "fall") for their entrance into the fallen mortal world by taking on bodies composed of mortal elements.

If I have this right, would you point out which covenants made in the pre-fall period had to be changed before the fall could take place? We are all trying to understand the point you are attempting to make.

Thanks, Old Tex

Thank you for your interest:

There are several covenant changes that took place and had immediate effect upon all mankind and the structure of heaven:

First: The divine relationship, status and rights man (as spirit children) had with the Father were made null and void.

Second: The Son became our covenant Sovereign,

Third: Our right to and heir-ness to divine priesthood of the Father was lost (in reality this is a more detailed explanation of the First item).

These covenant changes were necessary in order that man have a mortal (blood) experience. This is why blood was required by covenant in order to have a just covenant with the Mediator G-d, Jesus Christ – the G-d of the Old Testament (or Old covenant). Prior to Jesus the blood covenant was a type and shadow that was completed (or fulfilled – also called “made perfect”) by a divine and eternal blood sacrifice.

This change was not just the choice of Adam but of all the children of Adam that enjoyed the divine presents and protections of the Father. Those that refused this covenant change established their covenants and priesthoods through Lucifer and established a kingdom in which Lucifer was Sovereign. Those that accepted the plan of a change in covenants and priesthoods established The Son as their covenant Sovereign.

In essence, all the covenant children of the Father and heirs to him were set on courses that removed them as citizens of the Kingdom of the Father (which is represented in the Eden Epoch as the Tree of Life). It is interesting to note that the symbolism of “Cherubim” is a plural reverence and not a singular reference and many seem to think. Although this has important repercussions to covenants and the eternal scheme of things few seem to understand or care about this symbolism.

The Fall of Man is a gateway concept to all the covenants, doctrines, commandments and ordinances included in the Gospel of Jesus Christ – yet it is one of the most miss-understood principles of religion addressed in our modern times.

The Traveler

I have to disagree with this, on that fact that you think it was "sprung" on us about mortality. I am very sure due to scriptural refrences in the D&C and BoM that we knew full well the plan as we were being raised as spirit children, we were taught the same gospel there as we were here. Just as we wait till we are 8 to be baptised, we are made aware of that coveneant before hand. I'm very sure it was the saem in the pre-existence, that we were taught about it and learned what mortality would do. then we were given the choice to either accept it or not. those who didn't followed lucifer and htose who did came ot earth to gain bodies.

the covenants remained the same throughout the eons, but we had to wait untill we were prepared to take those upon ourselves, there was no "change" and the Fall was not a mishap in which God had to send someone to redeem us because of the "mistake" it was all planned out for us from the beginning.

[Traveler]

I have to disagree with this, on that fact that you think it was "sprung" on us about mortality. I am very sure due to scriptural refrences in the D&C and BoM that we knew full well the plan as we were being raised as spirit children, we were taught the same gospel there as we were here. Just as we wait till we are 8 to be baptised, we are made aware of that coveneant before hand. I'm very sure it was the saem in the pre-existence, that we were taught about it and learned what mortality would do. then we were given the choice to either accept it or not. those who didn't followed lucifer and htose who did came ot earth to gain bodies.

the covenants remained the same throughout the eons, but we had to wait untill we were prepared to take those upon ourselves, there was no "change" and the Fall was not a mishap in which God had to send someone to redeem us because of the "mistake" it was all planned out for us from the beginning.

I have no idea where where you get the idea that the fall of man was sprung unknowing on anybody or that all covenants were in effect befor the fall. If all covenants were in effect what purpose is there in mortality? If you reference Alma chapter 13 you will clearly see that those that kept their first estate were "added" upon in their second or mortal estate and those that keep their second estate will be added upon in the resurrection. There is a direct relationship to the covenants kept in one estate to the covenants that are added upon in a following estate. For example there are two kinds of covenants introduced during temple worship. The first kind is the covenants that apply directly to the estate in which one currently lives. The second kind are covenants that will not have effect until some later time. I am sorry but on this forum this is all that can be said.

It is important to note that covenants do change. As you stated Baptisism is a covenant of this estate and cannot be made before or after mortality. When the fall took place (just like death) the time of certain covenants has ended and the time for other covenants based on our choices is now available.

The Traveler

[MadHatter]

<div class='quotemain'>

I have to disagree with this, on that fact that you think it was "sprung" on us about mortality. I am very sure due to scriptural refrences in the D&C and BoM that we knew full well the plan as we were being raised as spirit children, we were taught the same gospel there as we were here. Just as we wait till we are 8 to be baptised, we are made aware of that coveneant before hand. I'm very sure it was the saem in the pre-existence, that we were taught about it and learned what mortality would do. then we were given the choice to either accept it or not. those who didn't followed lucifer and htose who did came ot earth to gain bodies.

the covenants remained the same throughout the eons, but we had to wait untill we were prepared to take those upon ourselves, there was no "change" and the Fall was not a mishap in which God had to send someone to redeem us because of the "mistake" it was all planned out for us from the beginning.

I have no idea where where you get the idea that the fall of man was sprung unknowing on anybody or that all covenants were in effect befor the fall. If all covenants were in effect what purpose is there in mortality? If you reference Alma chapter 13 you will clearly see that those that kept their first estate were "added" upon in their second or mortal estate and those that keep their second estate will be added upon in the resurrection. There is a direct relationship to the covenants kept in one estate to the covenants that are added upon in a following estate. For example there are two kinds of covenants introduced during temple worship. The first kind is the covenants that apply directly to the estate in which one currently lives. The second kind are covenants that will not have effect until some later time. I am sorry but on this forum this is all that can be said.

It is important to note that covenants do change. As you stated Baptisism is a covenant of this estate and cannot be made before or after mortality. When the fall took place (just like death) the time of certain covenants has ended and the time for other covenants based on our choices is now available.

The Traveler

I must admit I have very little knowlege of temple worship because i went inactive in my teens and only recently got my act together. I agree with you that things are "added" not changed, which i stated in my previous post. The fall did not alter any covenants, it just allowed more covenants to be made.

I did not say we made the covenants, but we were made aware of them before coming to this earth. and that the purpose of mortality was to give us the experience needed to become a God, at the risk of loosing our eternal life and glory. and also to gain a physical body like our fathe rin heaven, once perfected has the potential to be glorified to a divine being.

[Traveler]

I did not say we made the covenants, but we were made aware of them before coming to this earth. and that the purpose of mortality was to give us the experience needed to become a God, at the risk of loosing our eternal life and glory. and also to gain a physical body like our fathe rin heaven, once perfected has the potential to be glorified to a divine being.

Just for fun I thought I would focus on one thought given in your pots. I hope you will not think that I criticize. The term I wish to focus on is “perfected”. Mostly we think of becoming like G-d and that perfected is to mean without flaw (which is a backward looking approach). The problem is that being perfected or without flaw is only one dimension in understanding. There is another dimension that I think is more profitable in understanding. That is that perfected also means complete. This expands our understanding beyond avoiding mistakes to a more conclusive wholeness and turns our quest for perfection to a forward looking perspective.

When we look towards covenants as a means of perfection or to become whole we are lead to new landscapes of understanding and outlook – the goal is seen by looking forward. We are not just taking a test and trying to pass but we are gathering light, truth, love, compassion and power. But in the sense that G-d would gather light, truth, love, compassion and power. This is most interesting and I would point out that there is not a single instance where the Father or the Son has used that which is gathered for themselves but all the divine treasures are offered to those willing to covenant for the same. This is backward for every principle of economy that we are taught. Thus the leap of faith – not to obtain a greater covenant for our self but to “sacrifice” through discipline of our self, through covenant for the eternal benefit of others. And thus both we and our covenants change and progress towards a completeness.

The Traveler

PS. Perfection is not about our past but about our future.

[MadHatter]

I agree that we are here to gather knowledge, and to learn truth and gain experience. and to humble ourselves, we have to "first we must descend below all things, to ascend above them" - Brigham Young.

Perfection will never come in our mortal state. it can only be achieved through the grace of Jesus Christ if we repent by him.

We had to do this though to feel, know, understand, and realize both ends of the spectrum of all truth knowledge and light. We could not appreciate Light without being in darkness, nor could we appreciate Immortality had we not understood mortality. indeed we had to descend below all things and leave our Heavenly Father's presence if we were at all to know everythign there is to know in the universe.

[Traveler]

I agree that we are here to gather knowledge, and to learn truth and gain experience. and to humble ourselves, we have to "first we must descend below all things, to ascend above them" - Brigham Young.

Perfection will never come in our mortal state. it can only be achieved through the grace of Jesus Christ if we repent by him.

We had to do this though to feel, know, understand, and realize both ends of the spectrum of all truth knowledge and light. We could not appreciate Light without being in darkness, nor could we appreciate Immortality had we not understood mortality. indeed we had to descend below all things and leave our Heavenly Father's presence if we were at all to know everythign there is to know in the universe.

Matt 5:48 - Trust him. He knows what he is talking about. Not only is it possible it is inevitable to all those that follow the way (which is the way of covenant). Perhaps someday we will exchange our efforts and not just words to assist one another or another.

The Traveler

[Snow]

BIZ: This is amusing, thanks for the laugh!

Of course, the bible is nothing BUT allegory and metaphor. One can learn a lot about human nature, how to live a civil life, and various other tidbits about humans and how we can and should relate to one another, but to believe it to be a LITERALLY TRUE document is pretty goofy and leads to people making these kinds of weird speculative statements.

Again, thanks for the morning giggle.

Of course - and this goes without saying - the evidence for you position is non-existent.

Funny that you mock others for having faith when your own position is faith based.

We professionals call that hipocrisy.

[Guest bizabra]

<div class='quotemain'>

BIZ: This is amusing, thanks for the laugh!

Of course, the bible is nothing BUT allegory and metaphor. One can learn a lot about human nature, how to live a civil life, and various other tidbits about humans and how we can and should relate to one another, but to believe it to be a LITERALLY TRUE document is pretty goofy and leads to people making these kinds of weird speculative statements.

Again, thanks for the morning giggle.

Of course - and this goes without saying - the evidence for you position is non-existent.

Funny that you mock others for having faith when your own position is faith based.

We professionals call that hipocrisy.

BIZ: Well, what evidence is there that the Bible is actually literally true? Ding Ding Ding! None!

What evidence do YOU have that my position is "faith based"? What do you mean? Maybe you should believe in ALL the various world religions mythologies. After all, if it is written down in some religious book and declared to be scripture by the religious/spiritual leadership, it MUST be DA TRWU WERD O" GAWD!!!!!!

Is "hipocrisy" something to do with HIPPOS? WhatEVER do you mean? LOL

[Old Tex]

Old_Tex,

I'd agree that Adam and Eve don't get a lot of respect in many churches. (I can see how the LDS take on things changes their roles.) God did command us to "honour your father and mother" and I think they deserve far more honour than they are usually accorded. ( A bit like how Mary (Jesus' Mother) is greatly ignored by most Protestants, I don't think I've ever heard a sermon specifically about her in my life.)

When we get a chance could you (as a former bapo) do a post on how you got off the "faith-facts-feeling" train? (I'm currently working on a post for a-train about personal revelations verses written revelation (I keep rewritting and thinking about it, and trying to stop it getting too long) as I think that appears to be something very distinctive in the LDS worldveiw)

I'll do what I can in the way of answering your questions, AnthonyB. Can you explain a little more of what you mean by the "faith-facts-feeling" train? Perhaps I'm familiar with it by some other name.

[Old Tex]

I must admit I have very little knowlege of temple worship because i went inactive in my teens and only recently got my act together.

Hat,

I presume now that you are getting your "act" together, that the Temple is on your schedule in the future. Be sure to tell your Bishop that you would like to attend a Temple preparation class, If there is none, at least get the books and learn for yourself. It is important that you have some idea as to the basics. And remember that the Lord gave us symbols to learn by.

Baptism is symbolic of death and resurrection and for the remission of sins, The Sacrament is a symbol to remind us to remember Christ, and the endowment is basically an interactive teaching session where many symbols are used as teaching aids. And don't try to remember a lot of what happened after your first time through. It takes a few times to begin to get your bearings and really start to grasp things.

[CrimsonKairos]

I would say try to remember as much as you can, but don't be frustrated if you can't remember it all. B)

[MadHatter]

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I must admit I have very little knowlege of temple worship because i went inactive in my teens and only recently got my act together.

Hat,

I presume now that you are getting your "act" together, that the Temple is on your schedule in the future. Be sure to tell your Bishop that you would like to attend a Temple preparation class, If there is none, at least get the books and learn for yourself. It is important that you have some idea as to the basics. And remember that the Lord gave us symbols to learn by.

Baptism is symbolic of death and resurrection and for the remission of sins, The Sacrament is a symbol to remind us to remember Christ, and the endowment is basically an interactive teaching session where many symbols are used as teaching aids. And don't try to remember a lot of what happened after your first time through. It takes a few times to begin to get your bearings and really start to grasp things.

Thanks Tex, Yes I am preparing to go to the temple with my wife at the appropriate time, she's getting baptized in February, and then when we go to the temple for those things at the appropriate time we will be able to do them together. I've heard some things and read others and i do have a basic idea as to what to expect at the temple. There is a really good book to read by Matthew B. Brown called "The Plan of Salvation - Understaning Our Divine Origin and Destiny" the best LDS doctrine book i have ever read, it goes from the Origin of God through the creation and Fall all the way to death resurrection and exaltation, temple worship and ceremonies. It's at Deseret Book.

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BIZ: This is amusing, thanks for the laugh!

Of course, the bible is nothing BUT allegory and metaphor. One can learn a lot about human nature, how to live a civil life, and various other tidbits about humans and how we can and should relate to one another, but to believe it to be a LITERALLY TRUE document is pretty goofy and leads to people making these kinds of weird speculative statements.

Again, thanks for the morning giggle.

Of course - and this goes without saying - the evidence for you position is non-existent.

Funny that you mock others for having faith when your own position is faith based.

We professionals call that hipocrisy.

BIZ: Well, what evidence is there that the Bible is actually literally true? Ding Ding Ding! None!

What evidence do YOU have that my position is "faith based"? What do you mean? Maybe you should believe in ALL the various world religions mythologies. After all, if it is written down in some religious book and declared to be scripture by the religious/spiritual leadership, it MUST be DA TRWU WERD O" GAWD!!!!!!

Is "hipocrisy" something to do with HIPPOS? WhatEVER do you mean? LOL

No, we are told from day one to think for ourselves, just because a religious leader (including any of our Prophets) said something does not mean it is true.

There is no Hard proof that the Bible or the book of Mormon is true in terms of science, only supporting and circumstantial archaology. but that is not how God operates. It is not part of his program.

Even if you held the golden plates in your hand and were allowed to touch and feel them and flip through the sheets of gold pages, you would still not believe it any more then than you do now. that is the plain truth. the ONLY thing that testifies of the truth of god and the gospel Principals is indeed the Holy spirit, the comforter. that is the only way you will know for sure that anything is true and real. We are not mindless drones who follow what our prophets say without question. We are always encouraged to build up our own perfect scructure of truth through dilligent study and prayer and to find out for ourselves. Same goes for scripture.

We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly. We also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

Not a single member of this church Believes the Book of Mormon or the Bible to be the word of God unless they themselves had recieved that testimony through the power of the Holy Ghost.