The Road to Hell is Paved with Bad Intentions

[Traveler]

30 minutes ago, Godless said:

If Christianity is correct, then yes, which is why Christianity is a tough pill to swallow for people like me. 

If Mormonism is correct, then we're all getting a slice of heaven, so to speak. The believers will receive the higher exaltation, but I was always taught that the other realms of heaven would reward the good in their own way. Personally, I don't believe that either.

As it turns out, I don't believe in heaven and hell. I believe that the survival of our society depends on our capacity for good. I don't feel that I need a reward/punishment structure to encourage being a good person. But even for those who do, this mortal life provides ample reward for being good and consequences for being bad. Religion doesn't own morality. It's inside all of us, and it's up to us to find and unlock our best moral selves. Not everyone succeeds. There are some pretty deplorable people from all religious backgrounds, but a lot of good ones too. I think it has less to do with the "light of Christ" and more to do with a human desire to make the world better for those who come after us. 

 

Actually – if your parameters for defining good for good and evil for evil are thought to be well defined between birth and death – I think you are caught in a fantasy far more silly than just about any religion I have ever encountered.  The joke is on you my friend – regardless of how good you think you are or how bad you think anyone else is or was – you will all end up just as dead and insignificant in the grand scheme of things that has no meaning anyone, you or them when death comes.  Unless there is something beyond death.  Then if there is something I have a problem with those that think anything permeate is justice for anything that was temporary.  Individual life is the most temporary thing in this universe.

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, Godless said:

If Christianity is correct, then yes, which is why Christianity is a tough pill to swallow for people like me. 

If Mormonism is correct, then we're all getting a slice of heaven, so to speak. The believers will receive the higher exaltation, but I was always taught that the other realms of heaven would reward the good in their own way. Personally, I don't believe that either.

As it turns out, I don't believe in heaven and hell. I believe that the survival of our society depends on our capacity for good. I don't feel that I need a reward/punishment structure to encourage being a good person. But even for those who do, this mortal life provides ample reward for being good and consequences for being bad. Religion doesn't own morality. It's inside all of us, and it's up to us to find and unlock our best moral selves. Not everyone succeeds. There are some pretty deplorable people from all religious backgrounds, but a lot of good ones too. I think it has less to do with the "light of Christ" and more to do with a human desire to make the world better for those who come after us. 

Without God life becomes meaningless.

[Guest Godless]

7 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Without God life becomes meaningless.

I think my life has plenty of meaning. The scope and definition may differ from yours, but that's not the same as not having any, is it?

[Anddenex]

3 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

I would bet that there aren't atheists in heaven while hell is full of them. At some point in our journey we either have to gravitate to the light or stay in darkness. Those whose works are good are going to gravitate to the light. Those who wish to remain in darkness will, at some point, produce only corrupt fruit.

Personally, I don't think there are any atheists after this life (Every knee shall bow and tongue confess Jesus is the Lord. They will also proclaim God's ways were just). Hell will be occupied by those who rejected the Lord's will and his teachings; although, this initial sentence confirms people who have good intentions (who have done good) can indeed find themselves in the opposite of heaven.

At some point in our journey we either have to gravitate to the light or stay in darkness.

True. This however isn't the topic of the OP. This is a different topic by which at some point, in this life or the next, everyone will have had sufficient knowledge to either accept or reject the Lord's light. There is a reason why we have three kingdoms of glory as, per choice, there are sons and daughters of God who are/were only willing to accept a specific amount of light. Some with good intentions will forsake or will be like the 5 unwise virgins who knew of the bridegrooms coming but were not prepared when he came.

Those whose works are good are going to gravitate to the light.

True, and as they gravitate toward light (The Tree of Life), they will have a choice to continue in light, or to reject it.

Those who wish to remain in darkness will, at some point, produce only corrupt fruit.

Now, we are contrasting to complete opposites (Light and Dark - capitalized on purpose). Those who have received Outer Darkness will indeed only produce corrupt fruit. Those who inherit one of the lower kingdoms still have glory and light, and will receive according to the light they were willing to accept. Their choice. This is what I find intriguing with some atheist conversations. They act as if God did this to them, when in reality it was their choice (even when light was given) to reject the Lord's light.

It would be similar to an individual letting three people know by servant/friend that if they do this, this, and this they will earn $1 Million dollars. Those who do this, this, and this obtain the $1 Million dollars while those who "chose" not to did not. They who chose not to do this, this, and this will blame the giver of the million that they did not receive, and then call him narcissistic, evil, etc...

Edited July 28, 2018 by Anddenex

[Guest MormonGator]

19 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

Personally, I don't think there are any atheists after this life

I've more righteous disbelievers than holy believers, so I'm nearly certain that salvation of some kind is possible for atheists. 

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, Godless said:

I think my life has plenty of meaning. The scope and definition may differ from yours, but that's not the same as not having any, is it?

But I am driven by a greater hope and with that greater hope a greater desire to do good.

[Guest MormonGator]

14 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

But I am driven by a greater hope and with that greater hope a greater desire to do good.

Atheists can be just as driven to do good as you or I are. 

[Rob Osborn]

Just now, MormonGator said:

Atheists can be just as driven to do good as you or I are. 

No, they can't. In general, followers- disciples of Jesus Christ, will be more charitable and loving than atheists.

[Guest MormonGator]

2 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

No, they can't. In general, followers- disciples of Jesus Christ, will be more charitable and loving than atheists.

If you say so. Your worldview shows profound naivety. 

It's obnoxious when atheists act smarter than those stupid believers. It's also obnoxious when believers act morally superior to those evil and demonic atheists. Both views show a massively warped ego. 

[person0]

5 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Social healthcare doesn't remove agency.

You're kidding right?  I mean, you can't possibly be serious.

[person0]

4 hours ago, Godless said:

I don't feel that I need a reward/punishment structure to encourage being a good person. But even for those who do, this mortal life provides ample reward for being good and consequences for being bad. Religion doesn't own morality.  It's inside all of us, and it's up to us to find and unlock our best moral selves.

I have heard and read similar arguments from Penn Jillette.  He has stated that he has already killed and raped and . . . all the people he wants to (which is zero), and that with or without a God, that does not change.  Well, I'm so happy for him, but I can tell you that if I ever had the absolute firm conviction that there is no God, and that death is the end, I can't imagine anything other than the risk of being caught would hold me back from doing anything I felt like doing.  Additionally, I can't imagine other people not being driven in a similar way.  In the world today, most people still believe in a God and in some sort of afterlife.  Even atheists are aware of and have the concept of God in their minds although they reject it.  However, in a world where not 1 person believed in such a thing as God, or life after death, I imagine there would be much more anarchy and evil than you might expect.

[Anddenex]

4 hours ago, MormonGator said:

I've more righteous disbelievers than holy believers, so I'm nearly certain that salvation of some kind is possible for atheists. 

The doctrine is certain that there is salvation for all except the sons of perdition, whether they are saved in the Telestial kingdom, Terrestrial kingdom, or the Celestial kingdom. I wouldn't be shocked if there are atheists in this life (none in the next as every knee will bow and tongue confess Jesus is the Christ) who will inherit the Celestial kingdom as God is the only person who knows the end outcome. Personally, I think we will all know when we die what kingdom we shall receive as our countenance will either witness for or against us.

[Anddenex]

2 hours ago, MormonGator said:

If you say so. Your worldview shows profound naivety. 

It's obnoxious when atheists act smarter than those stupid believers. It's also obnoxious when believers act morally superior to those evil and demonic atheists. Both views show a massively warped ego. 

Although I may not agree with the presentation by Rob, the truth behind @Rob Osborn point is sure and true. There has never been a person in this life who could match Jesus Christ as to goodness and worthiness -- he was perfect.

Who will have a better chance at being more charitable and loving?

1) Those who are genuinely following the perfect example (not like the pharisees as @Traveler made a good point about love), or

2) Those who deny and reject and ridicule the only perfect person and follow after their own conscience

If the Master I follow is perfect, and I am following his path, the end outcome is that I will be more charitable and loving than those who don't. The greatest nation that will ever exist is Zion, which can only be accomplished by those who accept and follow Christ. No other nation or people will ever come to such charity and love unless they follow Christ.

This does not mean they can't be good, or that they can't be charitable. I think that would be naive, which is the part of Rob's statements I don't agree with. I have met far too many atheists who are good people to accept that they aren't good or that they don't have good intentions.

[Anddenex]

3 hours ago, MormonGator said:

Atheists can be just as driven to do good as you or I are. 

This is true as the scriptures testify that all have the Light of Christ; however, refer to my previous response as a caveat also.

Hopefully my smile is seen as friendly and not snarky. Just making sure.

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, person0 said:

You're kidding right?  I mean, you can't possibly be serious.

Totally serious. Take Medicaid for example- exactly how does Medicaid take away agency? Do you think Medicaid is satanic?

[Anddenex]

7 hours ago, Godless said:

If Christianity is correct, then yes, which is why Christianity is a tough pill to swallow for people like me. 

If Mormonism is correct, then we're all getting a slice of heaven, so to speak. The believers will receive the higher exaltation, but I was always taught that the other realms of heaven would reward the good in their own way. Personally, I don't believe that either.

As it turns out, I don't believe in heaven and hell. I believe that the survival of our society depends on our capacity for good. I don't feel that I need a reward/punishment structure to encourage being a good person. But even for those who do, this mortal life provides ample reward for being good and consequences for being bad. Religion doesn't own morality. It's inside all of us, and it's up to us to find and unlock our best moral selves. Not everyone succeeds. There are some pretty deplorable people from all religious backgrounds, but a lot of good ones too. I think it has less to do with the "light of Christ" and more to do with a human desire to make the world better for those who come after us. 

If Christianity is correct, then yes, which is why Christianity is a tough pill to swallow for people like me. 

As long as it is remembered that this "pill" is a pill you (general) have chosen to willing swallow. No one forced your (general) hand to swallow this pill. It is a choice, a logical a rational choice atheists have proudly accepted by their free will and choice.

If Mormonism is correct, then we're all getting a slice of heaven, so to speak. The believers will receive the higher exaltation, but I was always taught that the other realms of heaven would reward the good in their own way. Personally, I don't believe that either.

A "slice of heaven" wouldn't be a correct analogy, as a slice refers to taking a piece of the whole. The whole is "all" the Father hath, which those who do not receive exaltation will not have any "slice" of.  It would be a better analogy to liken it to three different types of pizza.  Telestial = cheese pizza (sorry to all you cheese pizza lovers), Telestial = peperoni, and Celestial = Stuff crust and every thing else that makes a pizza great.

I believe that the survival of our society depends on our capacity for good.

The only law, if there is no God, is the law of survival -- there is no good or evil -- only what allows a person to survive. The three young male lions are not considering good or evil when they attack the king male lion of another pride to take over the pride of female lions. These males lions aren't considering good or evil when they kill the current cubs of the pride, while make sure they mate with the females.

The majority of mammals aren't considering good or evil, they are only looking at survival. Even primates show similar actions. A lesser male primate beats the dominant male primate. What happens to the young and then what does he do with the females afterwards? Humans, according to organic evolution are primates. Without the light of Christ there is no good. There is only survival and whatever that means to each individual in order to survive -- is fine.

I don't feel that I need a reward/punishment structure to encourage being a good person.

According to the extreme behavioral science theories all (at least while I was in school -- maybe things have changed) of us are driven by reward / punishment. So everything you are and have achieved today is a result of reinforcement or punishment (positive or negative). Nothing good or bad, just reinforcement or punishment.

Religion doesn't own morality.

No, religion doesn't own morality -- God does. He is the ultimate law maker, and morality is inside us due to the light of Christ (correlating with our intelligence); otherwise, we would be no different than our related primates who act according to survival -- not good, not badd -- survival.

There are some pretty deplorable people from all religious backgrounds, but a lot of good ones too.

Sadly this is true. Gratefully, the opposite is true also.

I think it has less to do with the "light of Christ" and more to do with a human desire to make the world better for those who come after us. 

The human desire, the natural desire (without God) is survival, not to make the world a better place. It is solely to make your (general) place a better place. If that better place is threatened by an outside source, then according to the law of survival that threat will be taken out. It has nothing to do with making the world better. It has everything to do with survival.

Stalin did not care about making the world better, he only cared about making his power, his survival, more likely by removing any threat that would inhibit his peace. The human desire, natural human desire without God, will ultimately end in chaos as their is no good, there is no evil, there is only survival.

[Traveler]

38 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Totally serious. Take Medicaid for example- exactly how does Medicaid take away agency? Do you think Medicaid is satanic?

Interesting question - perhaps if the question was asked a little differently - like - Are there any reflections of Satan's plan to remove the exercise of agency and make sure everyone is covered regardless of their choices and the consequences of their choices?

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

1 minute ago, Traveler said:

Interesting question - perhaps if the question was asked a little differently - like - Are there any reflections of Satan's plan to remove the exercise of agency and make sure everyone is covered regardless of their choices and the consequences of their choices?

 

The Traveler

False premise. I'm not sure where the notion came from that Satan was really wanting to save all of God's children. Especially after making this statement in the premortal life God then labled him as the father of all lies...

I can show you what mimicks Satan's plan- like when a gang member beats someone and steals money from them. Or- when a person murders an innocent person for monetary or social gain. Or- when a child is forced to labor in a factory. Even- when a person gets kidnapped, raped, tortured and then left to die...

 

 

[Traveler]

4 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

False premise. I'm not sure where the notion came from that Satan was really wanting to save all of God's children. Especially after making this statement in the premortal life God then labled him as the father of all lies...

I can show you what mimicks Satan's plan- like when a gang member beats someone and steals money from them. Or- when a person murders an innocent person for monetary or social gain. Or- when a child is forced to labor in a factory. Even- when a person gets kidnapped, raped, tortured and then left to die...

 

 

So when Satan said that G-d knows good from evil - you think it was a lie?

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

8 minutes ago, Traveler said:

So when Satan said that G-d knows good from evil - you think it was a lie?

 

The Traveler

Satan can choose to lie or tell the truth. He lied when he said he should save all mankind. He had no intention of saving anyone.

[Guest MormonGator]

9 hours ago, Anddenex said:

Hopefully my smile is seen as friendly and not snarky. Just making sure.

No worries bud. 

[Traveler]

16 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Satan can choose to lie or tell the truth. He lied when he said he should save all mankind. He had no intention of saving anyone.

 

How then, do you know that was a lie?  You do understand there is a difference between being saved and exalted.  Explain how you know he was not willing to save every one (prevent sin and the fall) in exchange for his own exclusive exaltation and glory?

I am also concerned that you may not understand what "the father of lies" actually means.

 

The Traveler

[wenglund]

On 7/23/2018 at 3:31 PM, Rob Osborn said:

But then its not an intention at all. 

This assumes an overly narrow and rigid interpretation of the word "intention."  Speaking of electricity, should I be shocked it is coming from you,  Rob?

I don't know if your intent for this thread, or any other that you have started, was to quibble over semantics and definitions, but if it is, I am not sure it qualifies as good. If it isn't, then perhaps, given the responses here and elsewhere, this thread and others may be an object lesson that inadvertently underscore the validity of the quote that the OP is intending to reject. Funny, that.  

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

23 hours ago, Godless said:

I think my life has plenty of meaning. The scope and definition may differ from yours, but that's not the same as not having any, is it?

Over the last year or so there has been fascinating and illuminating discussions on this very point by members of the so-called Intellectual Dark Web.  On the "godless" side are Sam Harris and Michael Shermer. On the believer side are Jordan B Peterson and Ben Shapiro and Dennis Prager. While in the middle refereeing are Dave Rubin and Eric Weinstien. For those interested, here is the latest

 

Previous discussions are available on Youtube and podcast.

Thus far the respective sides haven't reached  an agreement, though things appear to be headed in that direction. I won't spoil things by disclosing what that agreement may be.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Guest]

On 7/23/2018 at 4:33 PM, lostinwater said:

The more i read, the more i become convinced that the greatest evils in the world occur when people numb their consciences for the sake of a "greater good" - or at least a protection of some greater good.  Except the "greater good" usually ends up not being good at all.  And i guess it's in this light that i've always interpreted that statement. 

It seems the minds that plan the greatest evils cannot do the thing they know as evil.  They have to peddle it as something else - as a good intention.  And then other people who see the evil as a good intention are the unwitting engineers of the path to hell - or at least something hellish.

Decisions held in conscientious opposition to one's own often get labeled as moral relativism that has to be fought or destroyed.  But i think most people know the difference between what they want to do that is not right, and what is right even if they don't want to do it.  i think we allow others to override our consciences at great peril - not just to ourselves, but to those around us.

Though to hear the other interpretations is fascinating.

Good thread @Rob Osborn!

This ^^^  is closer to the intended meaning.  An American Journalist named Russel Baker once said:

Quote

Usually terrible things that are done with the excuse that progress requires them are not progress at all, but just terrible things.