The Road to Hell is Paved with Bad Intentions

[Rob Osborn]

4 hours ago, Traveler said:

 

How then, do you know that was a lie?  You do understand there is a difference between being saved and exalted.  Explain how you know he was not willing to save every one (prevent sin and the fall) in exchange for his own exclusive exaltation and glory?

I am also concerned that you may not understand what "the father of lies" actually means.

 

The Traveler

In Moses it states specifically that Satan was the same from the beginning. The Lord is stating this in light that previously Satan came before Moses and tried to deceive him and was telling him he was the Only Begotten. That was a lie. In the council Moses is told that Satan was the very same from the beginning- a liar. He is the father of all lies because he started them in the beginning.

God saw his lies and knew full well his intentions were to enslave man in sin. The destruction of agency was Lucifers intent and that plan is still the same today. That destruction comes about by giving in to temptation and sin. Lucifer himself was already sinning in heaven.

[Rob Osborn]

6 hours ago, wenglund said:

This assumes an overly narrow and rigid interpretation of the word "intention."  Speaking of electricity, should I be shocked it is coming from you,  Rob?

I don't know if your intent for this thread, or any other that you have started, was to quibble over semantics and definitions, but if it is, I am not sure it qualifies as good. If it isn't, then perhaps, given the responses here and elsewhere, this thread and others may be an object lesson that inadvertently underscore the validity of the quote that the OP is intending to reject. Funny, that.  

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Not sure what you are asking. The topic of this thread is to do discuss throwing out a bad phrase. The road to hell is always paved with bad intentions.  

[Guest Scott]

On 7/28/2018 at 7:20 PM, Rob Osborn said:

No, they can't. In general, followers- disciples of Jesus Christ, will be more charitable and loving than atheists.

Statistically, in general, the more Christian a country is statistically, the higher the murder rate.  Most of the countries with the most charitable contributions per capita also have a high percentage of atheists.  

I guess it can be argued though that the countries that have the highest percentages of professed Christians in reality have a low percentage of those who are actually followers-disciples of Christ.  

Still, the connection between Christian countries and murder rates would be interesting if it weren't so tragic. 

Murder rates per country (the darker the country the higher the murder rate):

 

Here is the map of the percentage of Christians, where the darker the country, the higher the percentage of Christian:

You can see that both maps match up pretty well, shockingly so. 

I got neither from anti-Christian websites, but only from online encyclopedia sources unconnected to each other so there was no forced correlation.  I have also traveled extensively around the world and in 54 countries to date and I know which countries to really keep my guard up in.

Most of the countries on the top list for humanitarian aid per capita also have a high percentage of atheists. 

Of course this isn't an attack on Christianity, but just a reminder that we shouldn't be overly judgmental or have a holier than though attitude. 

I'm pretty sure I know why such a correlation between Christian countries and violence exists, but perhaps that's a good topic to discuss at another time. 

 

 

Edited July 30, 2018 by Scott

[Rob Osborn]

3 minutes ago, Scott said:

Statistically, in general, the more Christian a country is statistically, the higher the murder rate.  Most of the countries with the most charitable contributions per capita also have a high percentage of atheists.  

I guess it can be argued though that the countries that have the highest percentages of professed Christians in reality have a low percentage of those who are actually followers-disciples of Christ.  

Still, the connection between Christian countries and murder rates would be interesting if it weren't so tragic. 

Murder rates per country (the darker the country the higher the murder rate):

 

Here is the map of the percentage of Christians, where the darker the country, the higher the percentage of Christian:

You can see that both maps match up pretty well, shockingly so. 

I got neither from anti-Christian websites, but only from online encyclopedia sources unconnected to each other so there was no forced correlation.  I have also traveled extensively around the world and in 54 countries to date and I know which countries to really keep my guard up in.

Most of the countries on the top list for humanitarian aid per capita also have a high percentage of atheists. 

Of course this isn't an attack on Christianity, but just a reminder that we shouldn't be overly judgmental or have a holier than though attitude. 

I'm pretty sure I know why such a correlation between Christian countries and violence exists, but perhaps that's a good topic to discuss at another time. 

 

 

Professing to be Christian and being an actual disciple of Jesus Christ are two separate things. Statistics don't really paint a good picture of reality. True disciples of Christ don't murder people. 

[Guest Scott]

Quote

True disciples of Christ don't murder people. 

Agreed and I addressed this is the second paragraph.

Still countries with a high percentage of atheists in general do have lower crime rates.  They also tend to be high in charitable contributions per capita. 

I have a good answer, but for others, why do you think that in general the higher the percentage of Christians, the higher the murder rates?  I will give my answer if anyone is interested. 

Edited July 30, 2018 by Scott

[Rob Osborn]

10 minutes ago, Scott said:

Agreed and I addressed this is the second paragraph.

I have a good answer, but for others, why do you think that in general the higher the percentage of Christians, the higher the murder rates?  I will give my answer if anyone is interested. 

Good attracts evil. As I have lived in (in the past) and watched Salt lake grow over the years one thing is obvious- the righteous are becoming stronger but also the evil is becoming more wicked. I have witnessed that Salt Lake is a place where you will see some of the most righteous people on one hand and yet the most wicked on the other.

[Guest Scott]

8 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Good attracts evil. As I have lived in (in the past) and watched Salt lake grow over the years one thing is obvious- the righteous are becoming stronger but also the evil is becoming more wicked. I have witnessed that Salt Lake is a place where you will see some of the most righteous people on one hand and yet the most wicked on the other.

That's an interesting theory, and could explain part of it, but to expand on this, why do countries with a high percentage of atheist generally have lower murder rates?  

There are two important reasons I can think of.  

Edited July 30, 2018 by Scott

[Rob Osborn]

19 minutes ago, Scott said:

That's an interesting theory, and could explain part of it, but to expand on this, why do countries with a high percentage of atheist generally have lower murder rates?  

There are two important reasons I can think of.  

Shoot

[Jersey Boy]

On 7/28/2018 at 10:31 AM, Godless said:

The two bolded statements contradict each other. Regulating and restricting the types of health services a woman can receive is the exact opposite of giving them "sovereign control over their own healthcare". And btw, the two types of abortions you mentioned are performed exclusively out of medical necessity. Removing those options literally puts womens' lives at risk. 

A totally separate living living human being, with it’s own unique DNA, is not a woman’s body. 

Right, medical necessities like the mother saying she won’t be able to emotionally handle the responsibilities and pressures of motherhood. 

[Traveler]

12 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

In Moses it states specifically that Satan was the same from the beginning. The Lord is stating this in light that previously Satan came before Moses and tried to deceive him and was telling him he was the Only Begotten. That was a lie. In the council Moses is told that Satan was the very same from the beginning- a liar. He is the father of all lies because he started them in the beginning.

God saw his lies and knew full well his intentions were to enslave man in sin. The destruction of agency was Lucifers intent and that plan is still the same today. That destruction comes about by giving in to temptation and sin. Lucifer himself was already sinning in heaven.

 

If you were to research “The Spirit of Christ” you will discover a few things that I think you may be ignoring (at least in part in our discussion).   Some important elements – the spirits of Christ is not an individual entity spirit like unto the Father, the Son or the Holy Ghost.  It is described as “the light of truth”.  The spirit of Christ is also described as the “power” of creation and life and is the power by which G-d orders and maintains the universe.  It is the “power” of the sun and controls the movements of the stars, the moon and the planets.    The important notion for our discussion is that the “spirit of Christ” is the “light of truth”.

We also know from the Book of Mormon that everything has it opposite.  However, we are not told what the opposite of the spirit of Christ is but we do know that it is not Light and Truth.  The notion that is given us in scripture is “Darkness” and “Lies”.  It is this dark spirit of lies that Lucifer has become the “father” of.  This does not mean that what he speaks is not facts or related to what is - that is what many think of as truth.    But because he does not have within him “The LIGHT OF CHRIST” he cannot speak to the light of truth or do anything by that POWER.  Therefore everything he says and does is a lie.  Now think about that for a minute.  How can “what a person does”, be a lie?  If we were to describe what they were doing – would not that be the truth?  This is where the concept differs from the world understanding of the light of truth and the darkness of lies.  Describing or understanding accurately the darkness of lies is the essence of the lie and is the opposite of the light of truth or the spirit of Christ.

The Light of Truth or the Spirit of Christ testifies of Christ and inspires those that embrace the Light of Christ – to testify of Christ – not darkness.  Therefore that which testifies the Jesus is the Christ is the essence of truth – that which denies that Jesus is the Christ is the essence of the lie of which Satan is the “father”.

It is not that what you are purporting is not true (as it relates to the worldly understanding of truth) – it is that it is not complete and is missing the most important element which is “THE LIGHT OF CHRIST” that is not in Satan but is that which he opposes.

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

5 minutes ago, Traveler said:

 

If you were to research “The Spirit of Christ” you will discover a few things that I think you may be ignoring (at least in part in our discussion).   Some important elements – the spirits of Christ is not an individual entity spirit like unto the Father, the Son or the Holy Ghost.  It is described as “the light of truth”.  The spirit of Christ is also described as the “power” of creation and life and is the power by which G-d orders and maintains the universe.  It is the “power” of the sun and controls the movements of the stars, the moon and the planets.    The important notion for our discussion is that the “spirit of Christ” is the “light of truth”.

We also know from the Book of Mormon that everything has it opposite.  However, we are not told what the opposite of the spirit of Christ is but we do know that it is not Light and Truth.  The notion that is given us in scripture is “Darkness” and “Lies”.  It is this dark spirit of lies that Lucifer has become the “father” of.  This does not mean that what he speaks is not facts or related to what is - that is what many think of as truth.    But because he does not have within him “The LIGHT OF CHRIST” he cannot speak to the light of truth or do anything by that POWER.  Therefore everything he says and does is a lie.  Now think about that for a minute.  How can “what a person does”, be a lie?  If we were to describe what they were doing – would not that be the truth?  This is where the concept differs from the world understanding of the light of truth and the darkness of lies.  Describing or understanding accurately the darkness of lies is the essence of the lie and is the opposite of the light of truth or the spirit of Christ.

The Light of Truth or the Spirit of Christ testifies of Christ and inspires those that embrace the Light of Christ – to testify of Christ – not darkness.  Therefore that which testifies the Jesus is the Christ is the essence of truth – that which denies that Jesus is the Christ is the essence of the lie of which Satan is the “father”.

It is not that what you are purporting is not true (as it relates to the worldly understanding of truth) – it is that it is not complete and is missing the most important element which is “THE LIGHT OF CHRIST” that is not in Satan but is that which he opposes.

 

The Traveler

The bottom line is that Lucifer's works were built upon lies. Lucifer wanted the power of God but wanted it to rule over mankind by enslaving them into his power. 

[Traveler]

1 minute ago, Rob Osborn said:

The bottom line is that Lucifer's works were built upon lies. Lucifer wanted the power of God but wanted it to rule over mankind by enslaving them into his power. 

 

That is exactly what would have happened had not Adam and Eve partaken of the forbidden fruit to gain the knowledge of good and evil which is absolutely necessary for agency - So why do you think Satan convinced them to partake?

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

1 minute ago, Traveler said:

 

That is exactly what would have happened had not Adam and Eve partaken of the forbidden fruit to gain the knowledge of good and evil which is absolutely necessary for agency - So why do you think Satan convinced them to partake?

 

The Traveler

The spirits of man had agency before the world was created. Satan turned 1/3 the hosts of heaven to his side because of their agency.

[Traveler]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

The spirits of man had agency before the world was created. Satan turned 1/3 the hosts of heaven to his side because of their agency.

The question was - can you exercise agency without knowledge of good and evil?   If Satan was destroying the agency of man - why did he have them partake of the fruit?  Since you did not answer - I will provide the answer.  --  Because destroying agency was not the end he sought but was a means to an end - a necessary step if you will.  Man must use his agency to loose it and be enslaved by Satan.    But his end goes beyond enslaving man through the exercise of agency which is just the means to an end.  But as long as you refuse to focus on the Light of Christ as the light of truth - you cannot know the truth and you cannot have agency or be free.  When you take the Light of Christ out of the discussion - it is impossible to make the sense of anything concerning the work and glory of G-d.  It is the Light of Christ that is the truth and without it what is left is the lie of which Satan is the Father.

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

The question was - can you exercise agency without knowledge of good and evil?   If Satan was destroying the agency of man - why did he have them partake of the fruit?  Since you did not answer - I will provide the answer.  --  Because destroying agency was not the end he sought but was a means to an end - a necessary step if you will.  Man must use his agency to loose it and be enslaved by Satan.    But his end goes beyond enslaving man through the exercise of agency which is just the means to an end.  But as long as you refuse to focus on the Light of Christ as the light of truth - you cannot know the truth and you cannot have agency or be free.  When you take the Light of Christ out of the discussion - it is impossible to make the sense of anything concerning the work and glory of G-d.  It is the Light of Christ that is the truth and without it what is left is the lie of which Satan is the Father.

 

The Traveler

Adam and Eve exercised their agency by choosing temptation and partaking of the fruit.

[Traveler]

8 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Adam and Eve exercised their agency by choosing temptation and partaking of the fruit.

So it is your belief and understanding that a knowledge of good and evil is not relevant and has nothing to do with agency and the exercise of agency?

The problem I am having is that you ignore specific question and divert the discussion as though you either do not know or do not care,

 

The Traveler

 

[Rob Osborn]

1 minute ago, Traveler said:

So it is your belief and understanding that a knowledge of good and evil is not relevant and has nothing to do with agency and the exercise of agency?

The problem I am having is that you ignore specific question and divert the discussion as though you either do not know or do not care,

 

The Traveler

 

I think we both have ideas and we are speaking past each other on the one hand and on the other we both have different definitions and ideas of words and concepts.

[wenglund]

15 hours ago, Scott said:

Statistically, in general, the more Christian a country is statistically, the higher the murder rate.  Most of the countries with the most charitable contributions per capita also have a high percentage of atheists.  

I guess it can be argued though that the countries that have the highest percentages of professed Christians in reality have a low percentage of those who are actually followers-disciples of Christ.  

Still, the connection between Christian countries and murder rates would be interesting if it weren't so tragic. 

Murder rates per country (the darker the country the higher the murder rate):

 

Here is the map of the percentage of Christians, where the darker the country, the higher the percentage of Christian:

You can see that both maps match up pretty well, shockingly so. 

I got neither from anti-Christian websites, but only from online encyclopedia sources unconnected to each other so there was no forced correlation.  I have also traveled extensively around the world and in 54 countries to date and I know which countries to really keep my guard up in.

Most of the countries on the top list for humanitarian aid per capita also have a high percentage of atheists. 

Of course this isn't an attack on Christianity, but just a reminder that we shouldn't be overly judgmental or have a holier than though attitude. 

I'm pretty sure I know why such a correlation between Christian countries and violence exists, but perhaps that's a good topic to discuss at another time. 

 

 

It is loose statistical comparisons like this that validate the precept that "correlation is not causation."

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Guest Scott]

Quote

It is loose statistical comparisons like this that validate the precept that "correlation is not causation."

In this case, I believe that there is causation.

Quote

Shoot

Will do.

I believe the first cause is the separation of Church and State.

For years Christian churches suppressed scientific thinking and discovery (Galileo, Copernicus, Servetus, etc.).    It wasn't until the concept of the separation of Church and State that nations really began develop quickly.  There are exceptions, but for the most part most countries with the highest percentage of Christians were slower to grasp the concept of the separation of Church and State, especially with those countries that had only one dominant sect of Christianity (the United States didn't really have one dominant sect and thus embraced the concept of the separation of Church and State more readily than some predominantly Christian nations).

One again, there are exceptions, but for the most part most countries that have high murder rates are developing countries.   In many developing countries the murder rate is still low, though this can be attributed to the fact that most of those have communities that are dependent on each other for survival and development.  

It is my opinion, that there is a correlation between murder rates and the percentage of Christians in a country that can be traced back to the slower implication of the separation of Church and State.

There is another second reason as well, but it is a matter of which came first , the chicken or the egg.

Most of the countries with the lowest murder rates have a higher percentage of atheist than other nations.   In this case causation is there, but the causation is reversed.   Most of the countries with the lowest murder rates (again, there exceptions) are the ones that have a highest economic development.    When things are going well both economically and socially, more people tend to turn away from religion.

So, in my opinion there are direct correlations between the percentage of Christians in a country and the murder rates.

If anyone wants to refute the above though, go ahead.

Still, I think it error to think that there aren't a lot of people that are both non-religious and charitable.    Some of the most charitable people I know aren't religious.   

Of course there are other minor contributing causations as well.  

Edited July 31, 2018 by Scott

[Anddenex]

44 minutes ago, Scott said:

In this case, I believe that there is causation.

Will do.

I believe the first cause is the separation of Church and State.

For years Christian churches suppressed scientific thinking and discovery (Galileo, Copernicus, Servetus, etc.).    It wasn't until the concept of the separation of Church and State that nations really began develop quickly.  There are exceptions, but for the most part most countries with the highest percentage of Christians were slower to grasp the concept of the separation of Church and State, especially with those countries that had only one dominant sect of Christianity (the United States didn't really have one dominant sect and thus embraced the concept of the separation of Church and State more readily than some predominantly Christian nations).

One again, there are exceptions, but for the most part most countries that have high murder rates are developing countries.   In many developing countries the murder rate is still low, though this can be attributed to the fact that most of those have communities that are dependent on each other for survival and development.  

It is my opinion, that there is a correlation between murder rates and the percentage of Christians in a country that can be traced back to the slower implication of the separation of Church and State.

There is another second reason as well, but it is a matter of which came first , the chicken or the egg.

Most of the countries with the lowest murder rates have a higher percentage of atheist than other nations.   In this case causation is there, but the causation is reversed.   Most of the countries with the lowest murder rates (again, there exceptions) are the ones that have a highest economic development.    When things are going well both economically and socially, more people tend to turn away from religion.

So, in my opinion there are direct correlations between the percentage of Christians in a country and the murder rates.

If anyone wants to refute the above though, go ahead.

Still, I think it error to think that there aren't a lot of people that are both non-religious and charitable.    Some of the most charitable people I know aren't religious.   

Of course there are other minor contributing causations as well.  

Yes, a place called Zion.

I would say you are giving to much credit for Separation of Church and State and people turning away from religion and murder rates.

Still, I think it error to think that there aren't a lot of people that are both non-religious and charitable.

We have agreement here.

Edited July 31, 2018 by Anddenex

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, Scott said:

In this case, I believe that there is causation.

Will do.

I believe the first cause is the separation of Church and State.

For years Christian churches suppressed scientific thinking and discovery (Galileo, Copernicus, Servetus, etc.).    It wasn't until the concept of the separation of Church and State that nations really began develop quickly.  There are exceptions, but for the most part most countries with the highest percentage of Christians were slower to grasp the concept of the separation of Church and State, especially with those countries that had only one dominant sect of Christianity (the United States didn't really have one dominant sect and thus embraced the concept of the separation of Church and State more readily than some predominantly Christian nations).

One again, there are exceptions, but for the most part most countries that have high murder rates are developing countries.   In many developing countries the murder rate is still low, though this can be attributed to the fact that most of those have communities that are dependent on each other for survival and development.  

It is my opinion, that there is a correlation between murder rates and the percentage of Christians in a country that can be traced back to the slower implication of the separation of Church and State.

There is another second reason as well, but it is a matter of which came first , the chicken or the egg.

Most of the countries with the lowest murder rates have a higher percentage of atheist than other nations.   In this case causation is there, but the causation is reversed.   Most of the countries with the lowest murder rates (again, there exceptions) are the ones that have a highest economic development.    When things are going well both economically and socially, more people tend to turn away from religion.

So, in my opinion there are direct correlations between the percentage of Christians in a country and the murder rates.

If anyone wants to refute the above though, go ahead.

Still, I think it error to think that there aren't a lot of people that are both non-religious and charitable.    Some of the most charitable people I know aren't religious.   

Of course there are other minor contributing causations as well.  

Separation of church and state? Doubtful. I see murder rates going up in this country and it's because of a stronger push towards separation of church and state.

[Guest Scott]

Quote

 I see murder rates going up in this country and it's because of a stronger push towards separation of church and state.

Based on what?  2015 and 2016 only?  

Murder rates went up slightly in 2015 and 2016, but the overall trend is that murder rates have dropped significantly in recent decades.

Historically, it has really dropped:

Of course all cities and places are different and not the same and it has dropped more in some areas and risen in others.

Also the US has separation of Church and State.  I was speaking of countries with historically state sponsored/supported religions which suppressed scientific ideas and discoveries.

Edited July 31, 2018 by Scott

[wenglund]

1 hour ago, Scott said:

In this case, I believe that there is causation.

Will do.

I believe the first cause is the separation of Church and State.

For years Christian churches suppressed scientific thinking and discovery (Galileo, Copernicus, Servetus, etc.).    It wasn't until the concept of the separation of Church and State that nations really began develop quickly.  There are exceptions, but for the most part most countries with the highest percentage of Christians were slower to grasp the concept of the separation of Church and State, especially with those countries that had only one dominant sect of Christianity (the United States didn't really have one dominant sect and thus embraced the concept of the separation of Church and State more readily than some predominantly Christian nations).

One again, there are exceptions, but for the most part most countries that have high murder rates are developing countries.   In many developing countries the murder rate is still low, though this can be attributed to the fact that most of those have communities that are dependent on each other for survival and development.  

It is my opinion, that there is a correlation between murder rates and the percentage of Christians in a country that can be traced back to the slower implication of the separation of Church and State.

There is another second reason as well, but it is a matter of which came first , the chicken or the egg.

Most of the countries with the lowest murder rates have a higher percentage of atheist than other nations.   In this case causation is there, but the causation is reversed.   Most of the countries with the lowest murder rates (again, there exceptions) are the ones that have a highest economic development.    When things are going well both economically and socially, more people tend to turn away from religion.

So, in my opinion there are direct correlations between the percentage of Christians in a country and the murder rates.

If anyone wants to refute the above though, go ahead.

Still, I think it error to think that there aren't a lot of people that are both non-religious and charitable.    Some of the most charitable people I know aren't religious.   

Of course there are other minor contributing causations as well.  

You are free to believe whatever you want, but the nominal and static statistical comparison doesn't come close to affirming causation for a variety of reasons too numerous to mention, though lack of experimentation (controls and multivariate and rigorous analysis) as well as the fact that the statistics are extremely loose (they assume homogeneity among Christians, but they highly diverse in multiple ways) , aren't the least among them.

Your suggested mediating variable (separation of church and state) is even less viable.

Have you considered ethnicity and culture? What about population density? You mentioned "developed countries," but didn't seem to consider socio-economics factors in relation to murder rates.

To test your assumption, how do you account for the different murder rates within the United states? Does your alleged "causation" hold up?  From what I can find, Utah is the most Christian state, while Maine is the least Christian (see HERE), yet both have some of the lowest murder rates (see HERE). Louisiana and Alaska have the highest murder rates (not counting the District of Columbia), with Louisiana having a high rate of Christianity,, and Alaska and D.C. with a low rate of Christianity. (ibid) As for the rate of non-religious by state, Main and Alaska and D.C. rank towards the top, with Utah towards the middle, and Louisiana towards the bottom. (see HERE and HERE), And, all of these states are governed by the U.S. Constitution--i.e. the same degree of "separation of church and state." 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Guest Scott]

Quote

To test your assumption, how do you account for the different murder rates within the United states

The US hasn't had a history of a State run religion that suppressed scientific development, so you couldn't test the theory here.

Let's here why you believe that when it comes to nations,  with some exceptions, the murder rate is generally higher with the highest percentage of Christians.  No one can argue this part, but causation can be debated.

I'm speaking of nations, not states.

I consider my observation to be my own hypothesis rather than something definitive.  I don't mind hearing other hypothesis on causation (which is why I asked the question and waited before posting 

While there is a correlation in the United States between population density and murder rates, that's really not evident when it comes to nations.  In fact most (not all) of the nations with very low murder rates have very high population densities, at least compared to the US.

Edited July 31, 2018 by Scott

[Traveler]

19 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

I think we both have ideas and we are speaking past each other on the one hand and on the other we both have different definitions and ideas of words and concepts.

If I sense that a concept, idea or words are vague or incomplete - then I ask specific pointed and detailed questions to get clarification and avoid the problem you think we are having.   But you refuse to answer the questions or make any attempt to clear up definitions or concepts.   The internet has a very broad range and it is easy for misunderstanding to arise.  I had hoped that you would be more anxious and happy to clarify.  As pertaining to my post in response to yours - I have made every attempt to be specific and point out exactly - important elements --like the Spirit of Christ and knowledge of good and evil being necessary for maintaining and exercising agency.  I will add to my understanding of agency in that if a person is beguiled (as was Eve by Satan) then the result may be a choice that is not an exercise of agency.

Perhaps we could have some very interesting discussions - but not if you continue to refuse to answer questions and attempt to divert specifics as you have done with this statement above that I have quoted.  It is vague and lacking an specifics so I have no idea at all what you are attempting to reference. 

 

The Traveler