Tolerant liberals say you can't compliment a conservative friend

[unixknight]

5 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

I appreciate you answering, but considering that Conservatives are easily the majority here on this board and in the church, what is to be defensive about?   

Sure, Conservatives are the majority on this forum, but this forum is a tiny part of our lives.  The rest of the time it's a relentless barrage of derision and contempt of Conservatism, religion (when it's Christianity) and anything else valued by the Right.  

The flaws of the Right are well known and easy enough to hear about (as well as plenty of false accusations.  Pick any random 5 minute clip of CNN for that.)  In an environment where the majority is Conservative and, for once, the situation gets to be flipped, you're asking them to - yet again - go over the flaws of Conservatism...  

Also, (and I'm not accusing you of this) Conservatives often get met with criticisms of a Conservative in response to a criticism of a Liberal.  My dad is the master of this.  His response to every single criticism I made of Obama was "Well George Bush did..."

Hopefully that was a useful answer.

[Guest Scott]

Quote

It is said that an agnostic is an atheist who lacks the courage of his convictions. I would say the same about a great many self-proclaimed "independents".

Independent does not mean neutral.  

I have strong opinions on various laws and policies (as should be obvious here).  

As an Independent, I don't ally myself with only one major party or the other.

I believe both parties to be flawed.  

I would rather vote on issues rather than parties. 

If there were a major party that aligned with my viewpoints than I would join that party.

If you want me to spell out my beliefs in a general manner, I would be liberal when it came to the environment; very conservative when it comes to welfare, except for healthcare and necessities for a child; libertarian when it comes to foreign policy; moderately conservative on gun control;  moderately liberal when it comes to infrastructure; moderately liberal when it comes to education and healthcare; conservative for affirmative action, at least how most of those laws are written, moderate on immigration, etc.

If I could find a person who I agree with the most  on political issues; that would be the Pope Francis (seriously).   I' have never been a Catholic and never plan to be, but politically I seem to align with him quite well on many issues (but not on others). 

 

Edited August 3, 2018 by Scott

[anatess2]

5 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

Obviously, I disagree, but moving on.... what do you see as problems on the right? 

The biggest one is I am against the Right's foreign policy doctrine (the ideology that making other countries democratic like the USA will lead to peace).  

But, it is better to point to the "chart" and tell you what I don't agree with.  That way you know exactly what I'm talking about when I say, "the right" or "the left".  This graphic is pretty accurate to the American usage of Left and Right (which is not the same as the Filipino usage of Left and Right).

So, if you look at the very bottom of the Right section, you'll see "Hawks" (votes for militancy and aggression).  I see that as a problem on the Right (hence my statement that the foreign policy doctrine of the Right is the most problematic for me not only because I don't agree with it but because it uses these Hawkish methods to achieve it).  What I do completely agree with is that the USA (like every other country should, including the Philippines) should be hawkish with their National Defense including border protection.  This trait is imprinted into the Filipino National Identity, and artfully stated in the National Anthem "it is our glory and honor to fight to death against our country's oppressors."  I expect nothing less of Americans in the defense of their own country.

Okay, now look at that thing on both the Right and the Left and compare the section labeled "Beliefs".  Now, just so we understand - what this points is the tendency of the Right or the Left which influences law not that, say, the Right believes ALL homeless people deserve it or the Left believes ALL criminals are victims.  It's a tendency, a leaning, a scale.  You understand? 

So, I'm going to point to one belief:  Criminals.  I don't have a tendency to believe that criminals chose to be criminals.  I'm more inclined to believe most criminals become criminals by circumstance - which is a tendency of the Left.  So the Left would focus more on fighting for massive societal change while the Right focus more on incarceration/rehabilitation/individual change.  BUT, I am a US Constitution Conservative (on the Right - can be seen on the very top of the chart).  The US Constitution limits government.  Therefore, as a believer in limited government, I want societal change but I don't want the government put in charge of it.  Rather, we work towards societal change through societal means - like promotion of Religious organizations, stabilizing economies, etc.

I can go on and on, pointing to all the points on the Chart but it would make this post a novel.  So, anyway, hope this, at least, gives you an idea.  I can write a novel about everything on this chart if you want.  But, I don't want to write something that would just go "whoosh" over this conversation.

 

 

[Guest Scott]

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So you gave a wrong definition of a person.  You said what makes a fetus a person is her ability to feel pain.

You gave an unrealistic scenario.

If we're going to proposed unrealistic scenarios, let me ask you this.

If Hitler's brain were reincarnated and scientists spliced genes into it that made it gay and then transplanted the brain into a 100 foot tall cyborg who's skin was made of dead liberals, and that cyborg looks and sounded like Gilbert Godfrey, and that cyborg was holding ten nuclear weapons in downtown Salt Lake and the cyborg said if you didn't get a gay marriage right then and there he would detonate the ten nuclear bombs, and there was a person around who could perform that gay marriage and there was a partner, and if you got that marriage (to avoid the nuclear weapons being detonated), and there was a law that said it takes 48 hours to annul a gay marriage, could you still get a temple recommend the next day?

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

40 minutes ago, unixknight said:

  Also, (and I'm not accusing you of this) Conservatives often get met with criticisms of a Conservative in response to a criticism of a Liberal.  My dad is the master of this.  His response to every single criticism I made of Obama was "Well George Bush did..."

Hopefully that was a useful answer.

Thanks for explaining.   

What you say about Obama/Bush must be human nature, because Conservatives do the same thing to me when I say anything about Trump...they say "Well Obama did . . . "   It's happened in this thread.  

[anatess2]

3 minutes ago, Scott said:

You gave an unrealistic scenario.

If we're going to proposed unrealistic scenarios, let me ask you this.

If Hitler's brain were reincarnated and scientists spliced genes into it that made it gay and then transplanted the brain into a 100 foot tall cyborg who's skin was made of dead liberals, and that cyborg looks and sounded like Gilbert Godfrey, and that cyborg was holding ten nuclear weapons in downtown Salt Lake and the cyborg said if you didn't get a gay marriage right then and there he would detonate the ten nuclear bombs, and there was a person around who could perform that gay marriage and there was a partner, and if you got that marriage (to avoid the nuclear weapons being detonated), and there was a law that said it takes 48 hours to annul a gay marriage, could you still get a temple recommend the next day?

We're not talking about scenarios.  We're talking about DEFINITIONS.  Definition doesn't encompass a "scenario".  Define "Refrigerator" - well, it's this thing that keeps food cold but if the scenario is that you don't have food, then it's just a closet.  No.  Definition of Refrigerator doesn't change just because there's no food.

So, the Definition would cover a fetus, a gene-altered human, or cyborg, brain-transplanted Hitler.

Edited August 3, 2018 by anatess2

[Guest Scott]

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So you're saying that the United States of America doesn't breathe the equivalent of smoking several packs of cigarettes a day because of liberals and ONLY liberals? 

No.  It was the Republicans who were instrumental in creating environmental regulations under the Nixon Administration.  

I am saying that now days though that the parties have become more polarized and it's the conservatives who are almost always against any types of environmental regulations.  It hasn't always been like that.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

47 minutes ago, Vort said:

No, @LiterateParakeet, that is not what you said. What you said was:

You were wrong. LePeel said no such thing. What happened to your willingness to admit fault?

Really? "...wondering which planet you're living on" is an ad hominem? Do you really want to go back over your past contributions and do an ad hominem analysis based on that standard?

I see them as the same.   IF I agreed that I was wrong, I would readily admit it.  I simply disagree.  

Yes, I see "what planet you're living on" as insulting my intelligence, rather than the discussing the topic.  If you think I have intentionally insulted someone, please do point it out.  I will either clarify or apologize.  

[Vort]

12 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

It's a beautiful graphic, anatess. But it's crap. Pretty much what I would expect from someone in the UK illustrating their ignorant ideas about US politics and society.

[anatess2]

1 minute ago, Scott said:

No.  It was the Republicans who were instrumental in creating environmental regulations under the Nixon Administration.  

I am saying that now days though that the parties have become more polarized and it's the conservatives who are almost always against any types of environmental regulations.  It hasn't always been like that.

Depends on the environmental regulation.  You don't hear about the environmental regulation that Republicans pass because... nobody talks about it.

[anatess2]

2 minutes ago, Vort said:

It's a beautiful graphic, anatess. But it's crap. Pretty much what I would expect from someone in the UK illustrating their ignorant ideas about US politics and society.

I knew you would say that.  I had a completely separate post addressed to you about it but mormonhub ate my long-winded post.  So, don't respond yet until I finish re-writing the darn thing.

TLDR:  The graphic is not crap.  You simply think so because it's not written by a Right Winger who would make sure the Right will sound like Roses.

Edited August 3, 2018 by anatess2

[Guest Scott]

Quote

We're talking about DEFINITIONS.

Your scenario was still unrealistic.   I said that my definition of when a fetus becomes a person is when it can feel pain, but more specifically I could say when it starts to feel pain.   So a fetus would still be a person (to me) if it could feel pain at sometime, and then it got shut off.

So, what is your definition?   When does a fetus become a person?  

[Vort]

3 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

I see them as the same.   IF I agreed that I was wrong, I would readily admit it.  I simply disagree.

Then you are closing your eyes. You claimed -- falsely -- that LePeel said that "Conservatives follow the Proclamation on the Family, and Liberals do not." This is a blatant falsehood. He did not say that. The fact that you think he did say that, despite being utterly unable to come up with something that shows, you know, him actually saying something like that, speaks volumes.

[Vort]

3 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

I see them as the same.   IF I agreed that I was wrong, I would readily admit it.  I simply disagree.

Then you are closing your eyes. You claimed -- falsely -- that LePeel said that "Conservatives follow the Proclamation on the Family, and Liberals do not." This is a blatant falsehood. He did not say that. The fact that you think he did say that, despite being utterly unable to come up with something that shows, you know, him actually saying that, sp

[anatess2]

2 minutes ago, Vort said:

 

[anatess2]

Just now, anatess2 said:

6 minutes ago, Vort said:

 

Well... there goes my 2nd attempt at that long-winded post.  I give up.  Give me a minute to decide if it's worth giving a 3rd try.

[Vort]

5 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

TLDR:  The graphic is not crap.  You simply think so because it's not written by a Right Winger who would make sure the Right will sound like Roses.

How wrong you are. The graphic is crap because (a) it misrepresents conservative ideals and (b) seeks to actively assign virtue to leftists and vice to those on the right.

[anatess2]

4 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

9 minutes ago, Vort said:

 

Well... there goes my 2nd attempt at that long-winded post.  I give up.  Give me a minute to decide if it's worth giving a 3rd try.

 

2 minutes ago, Vort said:

How wrong you are. The graphic is crap because (a) it misrepresents conservative ideals and (b) seeks to actively assign virtue to leftists and vice to those on the right.

Like I said... you are complaining because the graphi

EDIT:  

c makes the Right sound bad at first glance.

But this graphic actually supports YOUR claim that the problems with the Family is predominantly on the Left.  I'm going to give a 3rd try.  IF YOU CAN JUST HAVE SOME PATIENCE while mormonhub plays games with me.

Edited August 3, 2018 by anatess2

[Guest Scott]

Quote

.wondering which planet you're living on

To answer this question, I live on earth.

Parakeets also live on Earth.

I had to look up Vort because I was not sure of the planet.  It is a planet in itself.  Interesting.   I assume that you are the representative from that planet?  Here is what I found (see link for more information):

http://zim.wikia.com/wiki/Vort

Vort was originally the home planet of the Vortian race and the "Home of the Universe's Most Comfortable Couch," as described in The Nightmare Begins. Vort is inhabited by the Vortian race, an intelligent race of aliens who have goat-like characteristics including hocks on their legs, and horns on top of their heads. The planet was originally in alliance with the Irken Empire and was later conquered by Irken Invader Larb. The possible reason for this was that Zim created a blob monster on Vort Research Station 9 that devoured former Almighty Tallest Miyuki, and later former Almighty Tallest Spork. It is unknown what planet Vort looks like from space, as it was never seen during the duration of the series. Vort is now Irk's top millitary research prison. Lard Nar, the leader of the Resisty, is Vortian.

====================================================

Interesting.   Vort, I am curious as to the Vortians interest on earth.   Do you represent all of the Planet of Vort or just a part of it, and what's your interest in Earth politics and religion?   What else would you like to know about our planet?   As long as your race (or whatever you call a group of aliens from another planet; I don't know the politically correct term) isn't hostile, I'd be more than happy to answer any questions you have about earth..  

Edited August 3, 2018 by Scott

[anatess2]

1 minute ago, anatess2 said:

Well... there goes my 2nd attempt at that long-winded post.  I give up.  Give me a minute to decide if it's worth giving a 3rd try.

 

Like I said... you are complaining because the graphi

@pam is playing with me.

 

 

[Vort]

The horns thing is absolutely false, based on a simple misunderstanding. The couch thing is true, but overrated.

[anatess2]

4 minutes ago, Scott said:

To answer this question, I live on earth.

Parakeets also live on Earth.

Literate Parakeets do not live on Earth.  LP is from a different dimension.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

32 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

The biggest one is I am against the Right's foreign policy doctrine (the ideology that making other countries democratic like the USA will lead to peace).  

But, it is better to point to the "chart" and tell you what I don't agree with.  That way you know exactly what I'm talking about when I say, "the right" or "the left".  This graphic is pretty accurate to the American usage of Left and Right (which is not the same as the Filipino usage of Left and Right).

Thanks anatess2, that was interesting.  I appreciate it.  

[Guest Scott]

Quote

Literate Parakeets do not live on Earth.

If donkeys can talk (Numbers 22:28-30), a literate parakeet might be possible.  

Plus, haven't you seen Men in Black?
 

 

Edited August 3, 2018 by Scott

[Guest Scott]

Quote

Thanks anatess2, that was interesting. 

Agreed.