Caffeine

[srm]

Originally posted by broadway@May 15 2004, 07:44 PM

It is a small thing that a lot of people have a hard time obeying...

It is where some people get hanged up. The church 'makes a big deal' out of it since that is where the church is having its problems. A man can try to teach a person about the universe but won't have much success if they are having a hard time grasping that earth is finite and small.

If the church is having a hard time with such a small part of the gospel, then how is the church going to be able to handle the deeper things, such as the law of full concencration or whatever?

It is a small deal that gets blown into a big deal by our members, not the leaders.

Be specific please,

What is the "...small thing that a lot of people have a hard time obeying..."?

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Starsky@May 15 2004, 06:21 PM

I once had a MTC teacher tell the group that the foundation to spiritual perfection was disapline. Personal disapline. I think it is true. If our foundation is undisaplined, the next step up can't be found.

I've never met anyone spiritually perfect. I don't recall the Savior ever speaking on the topic of spiritual perfection. The closest thing I remember Him saying is that He is the Way. Nothing about caffeine whatsoever.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by srm+May 17 2004, 10:26 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (srm @ May 17 2004, 10:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--curvette@May 15 2004, 06:10 PM

Over the years I've come to believe that this is a very small issue that we tend to make a big deal out of.  I think it's a perfect example of how we can "strain at a gnat and swallow a camel."

touche

I wasn't trying to "best" anyone. This is just something I've observed over the years and something to think about.

[broadway]

Originally posted by Starsky+May 17 2004, 11:22 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Starsky @ May 17 2004, 11:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -shanstress70@May 17 2004, 04:29 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--Starsky@May 16 2004, 09:28 PM

EXCESS bro is not disapline....

TAking in unhealthy products or amounts is not disapline.

You failed miserably to take my meaning and twist it up side down...

Ever eat margarine, Starsky? If so, then you don't have a lot of discipline (going by your meaning). Trans fats, as found in margarine, are VERY unhealthy.

What about bacon, palm oil, refined flours, etc?

To avoid everything bad is sometimes really bad for you...do you breath Shanstress??? Do you know how bad polution is for your lungs....stop breathing alright? LOL

BTW...I choose to use 'special butter subs'. No trans fattys here...bacon yuk! and flour...only whole wheat...when I use it at all...I prefer nuts and fresh veggies and fruits. Don't much like meat, but use tuna and love crab salad...something wrong with those? LOL...maybe we should just stop eating all together....I am for that!!!

yes, apparently everything you eat is bad for you. You DO eventually die, do you not?

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by broadway@May 17 2004, 11:00 AM

The 'hot drinks' part of the WOW is quite literal. It is unhealthy for one's stomache to drink liquids at extreme temperatures. The most common hot drinks happen to be tea and coffee, which have other bad side effects due to caffiene. I would imagine that drinking Hot Chocolate or herbal tea or chicken broth at the same high temperature would be just as unhealthy. Look up "Hot Drinks" in "Mormon Doctrine. Pretty interesting.

You've actually just pointed out another flaw in the WoW. If it is the heat of the drinks that is bad, then WHY is hot choc, etc. not forbidden? And why is iced tea? No matter what way you look at it, it MAKES NO SENSE! I think it's a power thing.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by curvette+May 17 2004, 02:06 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ May 17 2004, 02:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Starsky@May 15 2004, 06:21 PM

I once had a MTC teacher tell the group that the foundation to spiritual perfection was disapline. Personal disapline. I think it is true. If our foundation is undisaplined, the next step up can't be found.

I've never met anyone spiritually perfect. I don't recall the Savior ever speaking on the topic of spiritual perfection. The closest thing I remember Him saying is that He is the Way. Nothing about caffeine whatsoever.

Try reading Matt 5:48... Or maybe a little reading in Moroni 10:32-33.

Actually looking up the word perfect/perfection in the topical guide will give you a little insight about the teachings of being perfect, spiritually in this life.

Of course you won't find the words caffeine in any of those...but you will find putting off all ungodliness... and I think it isn't such a stretch to think of disobedience to counsel....ungodly.

I'm sorry that sounds so snotty, and self-righteous....but take the points I made and shake off my attitude....

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Starsky@May 18 2004, 07:53 AM

I'm sorry that sounds so snotty, and self-righteous....but take the points I made and shake off my attitude....

Shake off your attitude? It 's much too permeating. It would take a tanker full of Febreeze.

[srm]

Originally posted by curvette+May 17 2004, 02:08 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ May 17 2004, 02:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -srm@May 17 2004, 10:26 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--curvette@May 15 2004, 06:10 PM

Over the years I've come to believe that this is a very small issue that we tend to make a big deal out of.  I think it's a perfect example of how we can "strain at a gnat and swallow a camel."

touche

I wasn't trying to "best" anyone. This is just something I've observed over the years and something to think about.

My touche just meant good point. How else could I have said it....let's see. Oh, I know. Good point.

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by Starsky@May 18 2004, 08:53 AM

Try reading Matt 5:48... Or maybe a little reading in Moroni 10:32-33.

Actually looking up the word perfect/perfection in the topical guide will give you a little insight about the teachings of being perfect, spiritually in this life.

Of course you won't find the words caffeine in any of those...but you will find putting off all ungodliness... and I think it isn't such a stretch to think of disobedience to counsel....ungodly.

I'm sorry that sounds so snotty, and self-righteous....but take the points I made and shake off my attitude....

Caffiene is not ungodly - whether in the form of coke, coffee, tea, hot cocoa, whatever! And I don't mind being obedient, but it has to make a little bit of sense. I'm not going to do something 'just because'. This thread is hopeless. There is no answer about the WoW. It just makes no sense. Sorry if that offends anyone - just my $.02.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by shanstress70@May 18 2004, 08:13 AM

Caffiene is not ungodly - whether in the form of coke, coffee, tea, hot cocoa, whatever! And I don't mind being obedient, but it has to make a little bit of sense. I'm not going to do something 'just because'. This thread is hopeless. There is no answer about the WoW. It just makes no sense. Sorry if that offends anyone - just my $.02.

Thank you. Well said.

[StrawberryFields]

I like my caffeine in moderation. I was at one time (years ago) addicted to diet coke and I know that wasn't good. I would get really "hard to be around” without drinking it in the morning, noon, and at night. Now I only have it when I eat Mexican food and I like it with lime. I can even tolerate the caffeine free stuff with lime. I think that everybody needs to be accountable for what they do in there own lives. For me diet coke occasionally is my vice. I won't touch alcohol because I am afraid with my family’s history I would become addicted

[srm]

Originally posted by shanstress70+May 18 2004, 08:13 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (shanstress70 @ May 18 2004, 08:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Starsky@May 18 2004, 08:53 AM

Try reading Matt 5:48...   Or maybe a little reading in Moroni 10:32-33.

Actually looking up the word perfect/perfection in the topical guide will give you a little insight about the teachings of being perfect, spiritually in this life.

Of course you won't find the words caffeine in any of those...but you will find putting off all ungodliness... and I think it isn't such a stretch to think of disobedience to counsel....ungodly.

I'm sorry that sounds so snotty, and self-righteous....but take the points I made and shake off my attitude....

Caffiene is not ungodly - whether in the form of coke, coffee, tea, hot cocoa, whatever! And I don't mind being obedient, but it has to make a little bit of sense. I'm not going to do something 'just because'. This thread is hopeless. There is no answer about the WoW. It just makes no sense. Sorry if that offends anyone - just my $.02.

You are correct we are sometimes asked to do things without being told why (see Moses 5:6). BTW...the closest we can get to the meaning of Hot drinks from Joseph is Hyrum who did say that it was refering to Coffee and Tea.

[srm]

Now this is intertesting, Fresa says,

I can even tolerate the caffeine free stuff with lime.

Caffine is colorless, oderless and tasteless.

[broadway]

Originally posted by shanstress70+May 18 2004, 05:05 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (shanstress70 @ May 18 2004, 05:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--broadway@May 17 2004, 11:00 AM

The 'hot drinks' part  of the WOW is quite literal.  It is unhealthy for one's stomache to drink liquids at extreme temperatures. The most common hot drinks happen to be tea and coffee, which have other bad side effects due to caffiene. I would imagine that drinking Hot Chocolate or herbal tea or chicken broth at the same high temperature would be just as unhealthy. Look up  "Hot Drinks" in "Mormon Doctrine. Pretty interesting.

You've actually just pointed out another flaw in the WoW. If it is the heat of the drinks that is bad, then WHY is hot choc, etc. not forbidden? And why is iced tea? No matter what way you look at it, it MAKES NO SENSE! I think it's a power thing.

At this point, because it has been revealed to us not to drink beverages that high in caffeine...that is why. I do not think there is a 'flaw' in the WOW, only a 'flaw' in how people accept it or take it.

The WOW is about being healthy. It is proven that tea is really bad for a person's body, so is coffee. Just because there are other beverages that are bad for you as well doesn't mean that you should just disregard the WOW concerning tea and coffee. If anything, as a person who knows the health dangers of drinking other kinds of beverages, you should be even more restrictive on yourself...not less.

[srm]

Originally posted by broadway+May 18 2004, 12:04 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (broadway @ May 18 2004, 12:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -shanstress70@May 18 2004, 05:05 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--broadway@May 17 2004, 11:00 AM

The 'hot drinks' part  of the WOW is quite literal.  It is unhealthy for one's stomache to drink liquids at extreme temperatures. The most common hot drinks happen to be tea and coffee, which have other bad side effects due to caffiene. I would imagine that drinking Hot Chocolate or herbal tea or chicken broth at the same high temperature would be just as unhealthy. Look up  "Hot Drinks" in "Mormon Doctrine. Pretty interesting.

You've actually just pointed out another flaw in the WoW. If it is the heat of the drinks that is bad, then WHY is hot choc, etc. not forbidden? And why is iced tea? No matter what way you look at it, it MAKES NO SENSE! I think it's a power thing.

At this point, because it has been revealed to us not to drink beverages that high in caffeine...that is why. I do not think there is a 'flaw' in the WOW, only a 'flaw' in how people accept it or take it.

The WOW is about being healthy. It is proven that tea is really bad for a person's body, so is coffee. Just because there are other beverages that are bad for you as well doesn't mean that you should just disregard the WOW concerning tea and coffee. If anything, as a person who knows the health dangers of drinking other kinds of beverages, you should be even more restrictive on yourself...not less.

Hold the phone. Where "has been revealed to us not to drink beverages that high in caffeine."

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by broadway@May 18 2004, 01:04 PM

At this point, because it has been revealed to us not to drink beverages that high in caffeine...that is why. I do not think there is a 'flaw' in the WOW, only a 'flaw' in how people accept it or take it.

The WOW is about being healthy. It is proven that tea is really bad for a person's body, so is coffee. Just because there are other beverages that are bad for you as well doesn't mean that you should just disregard the WOW concerning tea and coffee. If anything, as a person who knows the health dangers of drinking other kinds of beverages, you should be even more restrictive on yourself...not less.

At this point, because it has been revealed to us not to drink beverages that high in caffeine...that is why. I do not think there is a 'flaw' in the WOW, only a 'flaw' in how people accept it or take it.

Decaf tea or coffee is also forbidden, according to most people discussing the WoW. Tea (forbidden) has a lot less caffeine than Coke (not forbidden). So that goes to show you that the WoW has nothing to do with caffeine.

Someone before in this thread said that it is because of the tem of the drinks, but that isn't the case either (hot choc, herbal teas, etc).

So if it isn't those two things, what IS the reason? I believe I know, but you wouldn't be very happy with my explanation.

If anything, as a person who knows the health dangers of drinking other kinds of beverages, you should be even more restrictive on yourself...not less.

Not quite sure what you're talking about here.

Please show me where tea has been PROVEN to be bad for you body (not Mormon writings). I can show you many articles that shows it's GOOD for your body. Let me know if you're interested. Oh, and tea tannins are not the same as tannic acid.

[srm]

I believe I know, but you wouldn't be very happy with my explanation.

Happy or not, I, for one, would love to hear your explanation

[Maureen]

Originally posted by broadway@May 18 2004, 12:04 PM

....It is proven that tea is really bad for a person's body, so is coffee.

Really. I too would like you to show us this proof. And while you're digging up that information I'll give you a list of:

Top 10 Health Benefits of Drinking Tea

by Lynn Grieger, R.D., C.D.E.

http://www.ivillage.com/diet/experts/askdi..._601571,00.html

1. Tea contains antioxidants. Like the Rust-Oleum paint that keeps your outdoor furniture from rusting, tea's antioxidants protect your body from the ravages of aging and the effects of pollution.

2. Tea has less caffeine than coffee. Coffee usually has two to three times the caffeine of tea (unless you're a fan of Morning Thunder, which combines caffeine with mate, an herb that acts like caffeine in our body). An eight-ounce cup of coffee contains around 135 mg caffeine; tea contains only 30 to 40 mg per cup. If drinking coffee gives you the jitters, causes indigestion or headaches or interferes with sleep -- switch to tea.

3. Tea may reduce your risk of heart attack and stroke. Unwanted blood clots formed from cholesterol and blood platelets cause heart attack and stroke. Drinking tea may help keep your arteries smooth and clog-free, the same way a drain keeps your bathroom pipes clear. A 5.6-year study from the Netherlands found a 70 percent lower risk of fatal heart attack in people who drank at least two to three cups of black tea daily compared to non-tea drinkers.

4. Tea protects your bones. It's not just the milk added to tea that builds strong bones. One study that compared tea drinkers with non-drinkers, found that people who drank tea for 10 or more years had the strongest bones, even after adjusting for age, body weight, exercise, smoking and other risk factors. The authors suggest that this may be the work of tea's many beneficial phytochemicals.

5. Tea gives you a sweet smile. One look at the grimy grin of Austin Powers and you may not think drinking tea is good for your teeth, but think again. It's the sugar added to it that's likely to blame for England's bad dental record. Tea itself actually contains fluoride and tannins that may keep plaque at bay. So add unsweetened tea drinking to your daily dental routine of brushing and flossing for healthier teeth and gums.

6. Tea bolsters your immune defenses. Drinking tea may help your body's immune system fight off infection. When 21 volunteers drank either five cups of tea or coffee each day for four weeks, researchers saw higher immune system activity in the blood of the tea drinkers.

7. Tea protects against cancer. Thank the polyphenols, the antioxidants found in tea, once again for their cancer-fighting effects. While the overall research is inconclusive, there are enough studies that show the potential protective effects of drinking tea to make adding tea to your list of daily beverages.

8. Tea helps keep you hydrated. Caffeinated beverages, including tea, used to be on the list of beverages that didn't contribute to our daily fluid needs. Since caffeine is a diuretic and makes us pee more, the thought was that caffeinated beverages couldn't contribute to our overall fluid requirement. However, recent research has shown that the caffeine really doesn't matter -- tea and other caffeinated beverages definitely contribute to our fluid needs. The only time the caffeine becomes a problem as far as fluid is concerned is when you drink more than five or six cups of a caffeinated beverage at one time.

9. Tea is calorie-free. Tea doesn't have any calories, unless you add sweetener or milk. Consuming even 250 fewer calories per day can result in losing one pound per week. If you're looking for a satisfying, calorie-free beverage, tea is a top choice.

10. Tea increases your metabolism. Lots of people complain about a slow metabolic rate and their inability to lose weight. Green tea has been shown to actually increase metabolic rate so that you can burn 70 to 80 additional calories by drinking just five cups of green tea per day. Over a year's time you could lose eight pounds just by drinking green tea. Of course, taking a 15-minute walk every day will also burn calories.

M. :)

[Guest curvette]

I've never seen a scientific study conclude that tea is bad for us. In fact, study after study consistently show that it is incredibly GOOD for us. (I see a couple of other people have also read those studies.)

[Maureen]

I can't help myself, here's more:

Question: Benefits of Green Tea? I have heard you recommend switching from coffee or black tea to green tea. I drink herb tea, usually a Good Earth blend. Am I missing out on some healing aspects by not taking green tea? -- Anonymous

Today's Answer - (Published 07/22/1997)

Both green and black teas contain polyphenols, or catechins, which have many wonderful properties. They protect your heart by lowering cholesterol and improving lipid metabolism. They guard against cancer by scavenging for free radicals that can damage cells and push them in the direction of uncontrolled growth. They also have antibacterial effects.

Tea makers prepare both kinds of tea from leaves of the white-flowered tea plant, Camellia sinensis, a bush native to Asia. But to make green tea, they dry the leaves after a brief steaming, instead of crushing them, piling them in heaps and briefly "sweating" them for black tea. (During this natural fermentation process, the tea leaves darken and develop a different aroma and flavor than green tea.)

Since fermentation destroys some of the polyphenols, green tea is thought to be best for your health. Green tea contains about 27 percent catechins, oolong is next with 23 percent, then comes black tea at about 4 percent. Unfortunately, herb tea, while it may be tasty and relaxing, doesn't deliver any polyphenols.

In laboratory tests, green tea has inhibited the growth of skin cancers in mice and protected against lung cancer in animals exposed to a strong tobacco extract. Human tea drinkers also showed less stomach cancer and stroke than those who didn't include tea among their habits.

There is some evidence that black tea shouldn't be written off, however. As reported in the journal Mutagenesis, green, black and decaffeinated black tea all had equally strong abilities to neutralize cancer-causing chemicals in the test tube, leading researchers to conclude that the fermented derivatives of polyphenols may be active too. Another study in the same journal found comparable anti-mutagenic and antioxidant activity among instant teas, a black tea and a green tea.

All of these teas also contain theophylline, a close relative of caffeine. This can be useful to people with asthma, because it acts as a bronchodilator. But people can become addicted to tea and the stimulating effects of theophylline, so I'd recommend keeping your enjoyment of this beverage to just one or two cups a day.

If you're not drinking caffeine -- in the form of coffee, black tea, green tea or sodas, I wouldn't recommend that you take up the practice. (You can still get the health benefits of green tea through decaffeinated forms.) If you are a caffeine drinker, I suggest you try to switch to green tea, at least in part. Drink it instead of that afternoon soda, or use it to replace a cup of coffee in the evening.

http://www.drweil.com/app/cda/drw_cda.html...questionId=3044

M.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Starsky@May 16 2004, 08:28 PM

Over the years I've come to believe that this is a very small issue that we tend to make a big deal out of.  I think it's a perfect example of how we can "strain at a gnat and swallow a camel."

Yes...strain at a gnat. I would think that is what the WoW is...

I once had a MTC teacher tell the group that the foundation to spiritual perfection was disapline. Personal disapline. I think it is true. If our foundation is undisaplined, the next step up can't be found.

Discipline in what context? And discipline handed out by whom and determined by whom? If I exercise TOO MUCH, am I undisciplined? If I drink too much water, am I undisciplined? If I attend church too many times a week, am I undisciplined? If I drink one cup of coffee each morning am I undisciplined? If I cuss, once a year, am I undisciplined? If I cuss once a day, am I undisciplined? If I cuss, every 3 minutes, am I undisciplined?

The term becomes quite relative doesn't it.

You may think someone who drinks on glass of wine, once a week on sunday evening as undisciplined. Others may find this extremely DISCIPLINED. Its all in the value system you set up.

EXCESS bro is not disapline....

TAking in unhealthy products or amounts is not disapline.

You failed miserably to take my meaning and twist it up side down...

Starsky--no, you failed to give the term any meaning AT ALL.

The point I was making was that one person's sense of discipline is different from another's.

You also fail to define excess--which illustrates your poor thinking ability. When you use terms that are vague and subjective you must clarify by assigning a definition to the term, otherwise you are communicating NOTHING.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Taoist_Saint@May 18 2004, 04:33 PM

I was talking to the Bishop the other day, and he said that we follow the WoW not because it is a test of obedience (which is what I considered it to be)...but because there are real health benefits.

His example was smoking.

He said that in the time of JS, smoking was considered to be healthy. God knew better, so he told JS to include it in the WoW. Today we know smoking is unhealthy, so that proves JS was a prophet.

Is it true that people used to think smoking was healthy?

If so, then I suppose the theory is that in another 100 years they will probably find something seriously wrong with coffee too.

I remember that smoking was considered not either good or bad...but only socially acceptable. Many people's crops and income was tied to the tabacco industry...and to smoke was good social and economical karma.

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by curvette@May 18 2004, 02:48 PM

I've never seen a scientific study conclude that tea is bad for us. In fact, study after study consistently show that it is incredibly GOOD for us. (I see a couple of other people have also read those studies.)

I think that is was tea or maybe it was coke... When I was in high school somebody put a screw into a glass of one of them (coke or tea) and within a week it was eating through the screw.

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by srm@May 18 2004, 12:12 PM

Now this is intertesting, Fresa says,

I can even tolerate the caffeine free stuff with lime.

Caffine is colorless, oderless and tasteless.

I said that.

Ask any Diet Coke Lover if they can taste the difference between the leaded (caffeine) and the unleaded (caffeine free) versions and I bet they say yes.

Now that you say that I may sound a bit crazy but that is how I feel. :)

SF