Do Evangelicals Go To Heaven

[Shell72]

From what I gather (at least as I can remember) the Mormon doctrines say that the previous model Christians (like me) would predominately find themselves in the 2nd rung of heaven (the Terrestrial I believe) due to their faith and service in Christs name, but unable to reach the top level (Celestial?) due to not accepting the full revelation.

Which I have a great problem with. Why - when our God is the all being and all knowing and expects total devotion from his followers - would He wait until the 1800's - basically 3800 years after He created Adam and Eve to fully reveal Himself? Do people believe that they are more worthy and accepting than those created prior to this time period and only they are going to reach the "top level" ?

[Canuck Mormon]

I'm going by memory here, but I'm sure that everyone will have a chance to accept the Gospel in the afterlife. God is not going to keep people out of the Celestial Kingdom if they never had a chance to hear the Gospel.

[AnthonyB]

VisionofLehi,

I have had a similair discussion with a-train and I quite like the point that we eventually got to. Both Jospeh Smith and Augustine (covered both sides there) identified that God does not exist in time but in an eternal now. This is mindblowing, but God exist simultaneously in your past, your present and your future. He does not sit there waiting for you to do things, he is at the same time experiencing you before your decision and the effects after the decision. He does not foreordain or foreknow but rather foreexists. He knows what you will do not because he controls what you will do but that he is already currently at this moment existing in the future whatever you may choose, whilst He is also existing in your now at the same eternal now for Him.

[USNationalist]

Which I have a great problem with. Why - when our God is the all being and all knowing and expects total devotion from his followers - would He wait until the 1800's - basically 3800 years after He created Adam and Eve to fully reveal Himself? Do people believe that they are more worthy and accepting than those created prior to this time period and only they are going to reach the "top level" ?

Couldnt that same argument be applied to the Christ showing up so many thousands of years after Adam and eve? Maybe God was waiting for the time when the world would be in a better position to receive it, by giving it 200 years to get some foundation before the technology age. Its not like Mormons teach that people before Joseph Smith are SOL. There is that whole spirit world scene.

[Dr T]

I'm guessing SOL="so outa luck" :)

[Shell72]

Couldnt that same argument be applied to the Christ showing up so many thousands of years after Adam and eve? Maybe God was waiting for the time when the world would be in a better position to receive it, by giving it 200 years to get some foundation before the technology age. Its not like Mormons teach that people before Joseph Smith are SOL. There is that whole spirit world scene.

I suppose you have a point there. But.. in that argument God sent his own Son. Joseph Smith was a plain old human no different than you or I and his first vision changed greatly throughout his years of telling the world of it if I am correct in what I am reading.

[VisionOfLehi]

You're not. The vision didn't change, but the parts he chose to emphasize for others' learning did.

[USNationalist]

I'm guessing SOL="so outa luck" :)

...of course. heh.

[HiJolly]

Which I have a great problem with. Why - when our God is the all being and all knowing and expects total devotion from his followers - would He wait until the 1800's - basically 3800 years after He created Adam and Eve to fully reveal Himself? Do people believe that they are more worthy and accepting than those created prior to this time period and only they are going to reach the "top level" ?

Excellent question. Hope y'all don't mind me jumping in on the conversation.

I don't suppose God DID wait "until the 1800's" to fully reveal Himself. While the institution of the Body of God went into the Great Apostacy, yet His spirit still worked with all those who sought Him. We have plentious examples of this, particularly where records were kept, such as in India, China, and the Catholic church. St. John of the Cross is only one of many examples, IMO.

Mack Wilberg of the Mormon Tabernacle Choir often takes texts written by these early mystics and puts them to music, because their words are so sublime and profound.

Unfortunately, the institutions of the day could not support the increased light, and typically persecuted and/or killed those who received the greater light.

I have read journals of people in Joseph Smith's generation who received visitations from God, who told them to wait, and they would see the Gospel restored through another person. At least one of these later joined the Church.

Just my 2 cents.

HiJolly

[HiJolly]

VisionofLehi,

I have had a similair discussion with a-train and I quite like the point that we eventually got to. Both Jospeh Smith and Augustine (covered both sides there) identified that God does not exist in time but in an eternal now. This is mindblowing, but God exist simultaneously in your past, your present and your future. He does not sit there waiting for you to do things, he is at the same time experiencing you before your decision and the effects after the decision. He does not foreordain or foreknow but rather foreexists. He knows what you will do not because he controls what you will do but that he is already currently at this moment existing in the future whatever you may choose, whilst He is also existing in your now at the same eternal now for Him.

Yup. Good stuff. I would point out, though, that God does upon occasion, condescend to enter into our timestream and manifest Himself. In those cases, He exists both in eternity, and in time. Hmmm.. "time and eternity"... kinda has a nice ring to it!

HiJolly

[Dale]

It is possible to have a false assurance of salvation.

[WANDERER]

Dale, can you explain that?

[Shell72]

You're not. The vision didn't change, but the parts he chose to emphasize for others' learning did.

That doesn't add for me.

If he saw Angels, and in another telling he saw God, and in another telling God said one thing, and in another telling God didn't say anything.

Don't you think if something as monumental as God actually uttering audible words to you happened - that would not be a detail that you would not tell immediately? I'm not trying to be disrespectful, I assure you, I just dont' understand.

[prisonchaplain]

It is possible to have a false assurance of salvation.

Yes.

Take the simple fact that there are so many LDS who are convinced that their church is the restoration of Christ's church on earth, and there are so many Protestants and Catholics who believe that Joseph Smith was not a true prophet. Many on both sides are very assured of their beliefs, and would tell you that the Holy Spirit had born witness to their conviction.

Jesus himself said that on the Day of Judgment many would proclaim that they had done much in his name, and He would respond that He did not know them.

So, clearly, it is possible to have false spiritual assurance.

We've not even touched on the 1.3 billion Muslim, who are convinced that Muhammed was both a true prophet and the last one.

[darrel]

I think we have to be careful. LDS Doctrine is The Gospel of Jesus Christ as taught through his prophets from the beginning of time. The Trinity view of The Godhead is in my opinion is the philosophies of men mingled with scripture and has resulted in the great confusion among the religions of the world.

Revelation from God is the only way to streighten out the confusion. Surely the Lord God will do nothing except he revealeth his secrets to his servents the Prophets (Amos 3:7)

I firmly believe that the Father, The Son, and the Holy Ghost are three separate and distinct Personages. The Father and the son have immortal bodies of Flesh and Bones and men are created in the image of God. The Holy Ghost is a Personage of Spirit. The special Mission of the Holy Ghost is as a Testifier of Christ, and one of his names is The Spirit of Truth. Through his influence we can know through our sincere prayer the truth of all things.

[Shell72]

Yes.

Take the simple fact that there are so many LDS who are convinced that their church is the restoration of Christ's church on earth, and there are so many Protestants and Catholics who believe that Joseph Smith was not a true prophet. Many on both sides are very assured of their beliefs, and would tell you that the Holy Spirit had born witness to their conviction.

Jesus himself said that on the Day of Judgment many would proclaim that they had done much in his name, and He would respond that He did not know them.

So, clearly, it is possible to have false spiritual assurance.

We've not even touched on the 1.3 billion Muslim, who are convinced that Muhammed was both a true prophet and the last one.

Do you believe that those who do not believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet are not saved?

[HiJolly]

That doesn't add for me.

If he saw Angels, and in another telling he saw God, and in another telling God said one thing, and in another telling God didn't say anything.

Don't you think if something as monumental as God actually uttering audible words to you happened - that would not be a detail that you would not tell immediately? I'm not trying to be disrespectful, I assure you, I just dont' understand.

ummm... Perhaps this is a bit of a nit, but we are totally not talking about what Joseph said. We are talking about what he wrote, or dictated to be written. I'm very sure he spilled it all to his parents and family. We know he also shared it with his Pastor.

Remember, he was NOT an historian. The criticism is pointless, IMO.

HiJolly

[prisonchaplain]

Do you believe that those who do not believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet are not saved?

Shell, you might want to read my profile. I'm not LDS. So, I do not see a person's view of Joseph Smith entering into the salvation question.

BTW, I'm guessing that most LDS would not believe accepting Joseph Smith's accounts as gospel would be a pre-requisite of entering into the heavenly kingdoms (at least not the lower two).

[Shell72]

ummm... Perhaps this is a bit of a nit, but we are totally not talking about what Joseph said. We are talking about what he wrote, or dictated to be written. I'm very sure he spilled it all to his parents and family. We know he also shared it with his Pastor.

Remember, he was NOT an historian. The criticism is pointless, IMO.

HiJolly

I am not trying to criticize. I just think if God had a message for me to deliver, I would deliver it. ALL of it.

Please don't take my tone as critical - I have a lot of questions and somethings do not make sense to me so I voice this in hopes that there are answers.

[Shell72]

Shell, you might want to read my profile. I'm not LDS. So, I do not see a person's view of Joseph Smith entering into the salvation question.

BTW, I'm guessing that most LDS would not believe accepting Joseph Smith's accounts as gospel would be a pre-requisite of entering into the heavenly kingdoms (at least not the lower two).

Sorry - I wasn't sure if you were LDS or not.

I am glad to hear about the second part.. :)

[AnthonyB]

Although I can see that there will be degrees in glory and varying rewards in heaven, I really don't like the idea of heaven being seperated. For me one of the results of the fall is seperation. Adam and Eve were seperated from the garden, the place of blessing from God. They faced the seperation from loved ones that physcal death entails. They also faced on estrangement in their relationship with God.

Heaven for me is the final reversal of the fall. We are back in the presence of God, in a new paradise (replacement for the garden) that He will provided us and very importantly for me, no longer seperated from loved ones who have passed on before.

Yet doesn't having a segregated heaven leave some people seperated from each other. Families still divided depending on which of the 3 heavens they obtain. Longed for loved ones not present. Don't children who die under the age of accountability go straight to the Celestial kingdom, yet their parents who may even have lived holy and rightoeus lives devoted to serving God are divided from them simply by the fact they joined not a particular church group (aka the LDS). For me that situation would be like choosing heaven and still getting hell, with all its divisions and seperation. It would not be a true removal of the fall, for one of the falls consequences (ie seperation) would still be in effect.

(Sorry for the rant, remeeting loved ones is a very improtant part of heaven for me.)

[VisionOfLehi]

I'd like to point out the Gospels in the New Testament, and some of the differences between them, especially in John.

It's the same story, but the accounts are different in several spots.

[Dale]

Dale, can you explain that?

I was thinking of Matthew 7:21-23. That on the day of judgement person's who thought they were saved from outer-darkness in mortality will be surprised they were not. That's what i meant by writing "It is possible to have a false assurance of salvation."

I think many Evangelical's who think they are saved and Mormon's are damned will experience that surprise.

[Shell72]

I'd like to point out the Gospels in the New Testament, and some of the differences between them, especially in John.

It's the same story, but the accounts are different in several spots.

The different books were written by different people - the slight variances were from person to person, not the individual stories.

[WANDERER]

Dale : thankyou, I've been thinking about that.

I think many Evangelical's who think they are saved and Mormon's are damned will experience that surprise.

Are you saying that religious membership is a false assurance of salvation?

And I'm curious if you could invert the above statement and whether it would also be true:

and that many Mormons who think they are saved and Evangelicals are damned (or just not going to be anywhere near them in Heaven perhaps) will experience that surprise.