Science vs Religion--A New Take?

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

My question was not intended to be limited to secular collaboration.

 

The Traveler

Im not sure what you are asking.

[Rob Osborn]

28 minutes ago, wenglund said:

It says that there was a beginning,  contrary to your dogmatic claim.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

And so what is meant by "beginning"? Do you think God created the entire universe at this "beginning"?

[wenglund]

6 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

And so what is meant by "beginning"? Do you think God created the entire universe at this "beginning"?

The meaning is disclosed in the 1st verse, itself: "God created the heaven and earth."

In subsequent verses God ""made two great lights, the greater to rule the day, and the lesser to rule the night: he made the stars. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven."

The Book of Moses is similarly worded.

Since I am not a dogmatist, I will leave open the question of just how much of the universe was a function of the creation. and marked "the Beginning."

I should also note that, according to the Book of Moses (Chapt 2 vs 1), one of the names for the Almighty God is "The Beginning." 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Traveler]

13 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

And so what is meant by "beginning"? Do you think God created the entire universe at this "beginning"?

According to a Rabbi that I have had conversations with (because he spoke fluent Hebrew and was an expert) - the phrase in Genesis would be better translated as "When G-d first established a covenant with man".

Because of the context in which this epoch is given - I am inclined that this creation epoch has more to do with the establishment and introduction of the "Plan of Salvation" than it does the origins of the universe, galaxy, solar system or for than matter - so much of anything we would think of as creation or coming into being in scientific terms.

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

6 minutes ago, wenglund said:

The meaning is disclosed in the 1st verse, itself: "God created the heaven and earth."

In subsequent verses God ""made two great lights, the greater to rule the day, and the lesser to rule the night: he made the stars. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven."

The Book of Moses is similarly worded.

Since I am not a dogmatist, I will leave open the question of just how much of the universe was a function of the creation. and marked "the Beginning."

I should also note that, according to the Book of Moses (Chapt 2 vs 1), one of the names for the Almighty God is "The Beginning." 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

So, where do you believe God was before Genesis 1:1? Was he inside the universe and part of it or outside of it?

[Rob Osborn]

7 minutes ago, Traveler said:

According to a Rabbi that I have had conversations with (because he spoke fluent Hebrew and was an expert) - the phrase in Genesis would be better translated as "When G-d first established a covenant with man".

Because of the context in which this epoch is given - I am inclined that this creation epoch has more to do with the establishment and introduction of the "Plan of Salvation" than it does the origins of the universe, galaxy, solar system or for than matter - so much of anything we would think of as creation or coming into being in scientific terms.

 

The Traveler

Aye. The universe itself exists, it has no "beginning". 

[Traveler]

1 minute ago, Rob Osborn said:

So, where do you believe God was before Genesis 1:1? Was he inside the universe and part of it or outside of it?

Can you give an example of anything that anyone has created that they were inside it before they started?  Your question is a bit of an oxymoron. 

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

5 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Can you give an example of anything that anyone has created that they were inside it before they started?  Your question is a bit of an oxymoron. 

 

The Traveler

One of the things in my work is building vintage racecars from scratch. We plan them, engineer the details, and then follow those plans using materials available. We can do this because we live in a world full of resources.. This is no different than God. He planned and engineered our solar system. Then, he took of materials in the already existing universe he is in (it being the same universe we are in), and carried out the formation and order of a new solar system.

[Traveler]

3 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Aye. The universe itself exists, it has no "beginning". 

I use to work for Boeing - though we could say that the materials from which their aircraft were made have always existed - I do believe that we can say there was a beginning to the creation or the first or any other aircraft.  But where would be the beginning - as an engineer it would have to have been pre-design.  Something that is intelligently created (engineered) there is a step the precedes design.  For those unacquainted with engineering - the pre-design phase is called the requirement phase.  As an engineer I see definite indications in the various (creation accounts that imply that a requirement phase took place prior to what is called creation.

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

The relevent passage-

1 And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto Moses, saying: Behold, I reveal unto you concerning this heaven, and this earth; write the words which I speak. I am the Beginning and the End, the Almighty God; by mine Only Begotten I created these things; yea, in the beginning I created the iheaven, and the earth upon which thou standest. (Moses 2:1)

The words "this heaven" & "this earth" are in reference to our solar system/ galaxy and our earth. We will pass through three "heavens" by the time this planet is celestialized. We arent talking about three universes here but rather three solar systems/galaxies.

[Traveler]

4 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

One of the things in my work is building vintage racecars from scratch. We plan them, engineer the details, and then follow those plans using materials available. We can do this because we live in a world full of resources.. This is no different than God. He planned and engineered our solar system. Then, he took of materials in the already existing universe he is in (it being the same universe we are in), and carried out the formation and order of a new solar system.

Using this example - how much and of what do you thing he outsourced?  😉

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

5 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Using this example - how much and of what do you thing he outsourced?  😉

 

The Traveler

Im not sure. I do know that other galaxies and solar systems came and past before he created ours. This all happens in the universe according to Gods work and glory.

[wenglund]

10 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

So, where do you believe God was before Genesis 1:1? Was he inside the universe and part of it or outside of it?

God hasn't revealed this to us as yet, and so I can't really say.

This holds true whether one is speaking about the literal physical universe, or the literal spiritual universe, or , as @Traveler intimated, metaphorically the covenant universes, etc.. 

All God has revealed is that there was "the Beginning," contrary to your dogmatic statement.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Rob Osborn]

5 minutes ago, wenglund said:

God hasn't revealed this to us as yet, and so I can't really say.

This holds true whether one is speaking about the literal physical universe, or the literal spiritual universe, or , as @Traveler intimated, metaphorically the covenant universes, etc.. 

All God has revealed is that there was "the Beginning," contrary to your dogmatic statement.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

So, you think I am speaking dogmatism when you have a closed loop mind. Hum... go look at the definition of dogmatism-

": the expression of an opinion or belief as if it were a fact : positiveness in assertion of opinion especially when unwarranted or arrogant"

[Rob Osborn]

This is one of those moments when you have to ask the class- "c'mon guys, were smarter than this".

[wenglund]

38 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

So, you think I am speaking dogmatism when you have a closed loop mind.

Evidently, when I say"I leave the question open, " or "I can't really say," you interpret this to mean that my mind is closed.  It creates a real communication problem when you interpret my words exactly opposite to what they actually mean.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited November 29, 2018 by wenglund

[wenglund]

4 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

This is one of those moments when you have to ask the class- "c'mon guys, were smarter than this".

The words of Christ come to mind: "Physician, heal thy self" or better yet, motes and beams.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[MrShorty]

The direction this has taken seems similar to a thread I started not quite 2 years ago:

Elder Scott was invoked early with a statement that seemed to support a "our Father God created everything we can ever hope to see" model. There was a round of discussion into Kolob theorem type models (God created our galaxy, another being created the Andromeda galaxy, and so on) kind of model, but that did not seem well received. We did not really discuss the possibility of an eternally existing universe without beginning, our discussion pretty much assumed the observable universe had a beginning. I know I am uncomfortable with the idea that I can see beyond God's creation with my simple telescopes (based on pre - Joseph Smith technologies).

I would note: @Rob Osborn that it seems that most on this forum prefer a "god is the creator of all of the observable universe (even the hypothetical stuff that is beyond our current technology)" model.

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, wenglund said:

Evidently, when I say"I leave the question open, " or "I can't really say," you interpret this to mean that my mind is closed.  It creates a real communication problem when you interpret my words exactly opposite to what they actually mean.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Its definitely a communication problem when you keep assuming all I spout is dogmatism.

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, wenglund said:

The words of Christ come to mind: "Physician, heal thy self" or better yet, motes and beams.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Pull it out already then☺️

[wenglund]

2 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Pull it out already then☺️

Have a nice day.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, MrShorty said:

The direction this has taken seems similar to a thread I started not quite 2 years ago:

Elder Scott was invoked early with a statement that seemed to support a "our Father God created everything we can ever hope to see" model. There was a round of discussion into Kolob theorem type models (God created our galaxy, another being created the Andromeda galaxy, and so on) kind of model, but that did not seem well received. We did not really discuss the possibility of an eternally existing universe without beginning, our discussion pretty much assumed the observable universe had a beginning. I know I am uncomfortable with the idea that I can see beyond God's creation with my simple telescopes (based on pre - Joseph Smith technologies).

I would note: @Rob Osborn that it seems that most on this forum prefer a "god is the creator of all of the observable universe (even the hypothetical stuff that is beyond our current technology)" model.

Its all dominos. If God created all the observable, or possible to observe universe, then the next, and the next, and so on forever which woyld include the whole universe. Logic tells me this isnt so. Logic tells me that God creates "within" the universe of the which God himself is in and has always been within. If we too are to become Gods with this earth as our eternal home planet then when we are creating we too will be creating within the universe also, and so on to the next generation, and so on and on forever.

[Rob Osborn]

8 minutes ago, wenglund said:

Have a nice day.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

You too.

[wenglund]

22 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Its definitely a communication problem when you keep assuming all I spout is dogmatism.

The proof is in the bark.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Rob Osborn]

5 minutes ago, wenglund said:

The proof is in the bark.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

And all I can hear is barking from😃  your side of the fence