Comparative repentance processes and outcomes

[Jersey Boy]

On 1/4/2019 at 8:06 AM, Rob Osborn said:

I already know God doesn't lie, neither does he change his statututes and laws. Therefore there must be an error in the script. That was my point. God doesn't have a double standard. If someone committed an unpardonable sin it doesn't mean "well, mostly". 

Here’s another perspective for you to consider with regard to the eternal fate of King David: The scriptures make it plain that those who become the sons of perdition descend to the lowest depths of depravity until they finally become the implacable and utterly destructive enemies of God. Not only do the sons of perdition have an unquenchable, evelasting hatred toward the God who gave them life, but, if it were possible, they would even attempt to destroy God and usurp his throne, which is why we are informed that the most fervent desire of these hateful creatures is to “crucify the Son of God afresh and put him to an open shame.” Not only do the sons of perdition hate and want to destroy God, but because their souls are in absolute darkness their other consuming desire is to make war against the saints and drag them down to hell.

Now I’m sure you will freely acknowledge all the aforesaid is totally true. So this prompts a very important question: Why after the acknowledgement of his sin to Nathan did David contiinually think and act very unlike a son of perdition? The following Psalm of David, written after his confession, evinces a state of mind and heart totally unlike that of a son of perdition. In the context of your ideas, the sixty-four thousand dollar question is why? Also consider that David continued to demonstrate the same broken-hearted and contrite attitude to the end of his life. Why if he is a son of perdition does David not at all act like a son of perdition is supposed to act?

1 Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.

2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.

3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.

4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.

5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.

7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.

9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.

10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.

14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.

15 O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.

16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.

17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. 

18 Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.

19 Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar. (Psalm 31)

 

Edited January 8, 2019 by Jersey Boy

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, Jersey Boy said:

Here’s another perspective for you to consider with regard to the eternal fate of King David: The scriptures make it plain that those who become the sons of perdition descend to the lowest depths of depravity until they finally become the implacable and utterly destructive enemies of God. Not only do the sons of perdition have an unquenchable, evelasting hatred toward the God who gave them life, but, if it were possible, they would even attempt to destroy God and usurp his throne, which is why we are informed that the most fervent desire of these hateful creatures is to “crucify the Son of God afresh and put him to an open shame.” Not only do the sons of perdition hate and want to destroy God, but because their souls are in absolute darkness their other consuming desire is to make war against the saints and drag them down to hell.

Now I’m sure you will freely acknowledge all the aforesaid is totally true. So this prompts a very important question: Why after the acknowledgement of his sin to Nathan did David contiinually think and act very unlike a son of perdition? The following Psalm of David, written after his confession, evinces a state of mind and heart totally unlike that of a son of perdition. In the context of your ideas, the sixty-four thousand dollar question is why? Also consider that David continued to demonstrate the same broken-hearted and contrite attitude to the end of his life. Why if he is a son of perdition does David not at all act like a son of perdition is supposed to act?

1 Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.

2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.

3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.

4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.

5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.

7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.

9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.

10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.

14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.

15 O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.

16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.

17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. 

18 Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.

19 Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar. (Psalm 31)

 

I find it interesting that all the while of his life he thinks like this, for we aren't told different, even entering into holy covenant with God and yet attempts to deceive the Lord and get away with murder. Hum...

Now, both Judas and Cain were the same...

[Rob Osborn]

4 hours ago, Jersey Boy said:

16 And the resurrection from the dead is the redemption of the soul.

Basic resurrection here.

[Jersey Boy]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

I find it interesting that all the while of his life he thinks like this, for we aren't told different, even entering into holy covenant with God and yet attempts to deceive the Lord and get away with murder. Hum...

Now, both Judas and Cain were the same...

Do you have any evidence that Cain wrote inspired holy scripture after he murdered Cain?

Do you realize that some of David’s Messianic Psalms were written after David’s confrontation with Nathan? And are you seriously entertaining the notion that many of David’s beautiful and inspiring Psalms were written by a son of perdition? That David wasn’t evinciing sincere repentance in our scriptures but only putting on a cynical, manipulative act?

Doesn’t David’s repentant and deeply remorseful attitude make much more sense in light of the fact that, as the prophet Joseph Smith testified in his previously mentioned 1841 sermon, David would eventually be forgiven and receive a measure of mercy?

Finally, do you have any evidence that David, who reigned during the administration of the lesser Aaronic priesthood and the lesser Mosaic Law, held the Melchizedek Priesthood? One can only become a son of perdition after receiving the fulness of the Melchizedec priesthood and making his calling and election sure. And don’t say it’s because he was plurally married because plural marriage was permitted under the Mosaic Law in the Holy Land. 

 

Edited January 8, 2019 by Jersey Boy

[Rob Osborn]

3 hours ago, Jersey Boy said:

Do you have any evidence that Cain wrote inspired holy scripture after he murdered Cain?

Do you realize that some of David’s Messianic Psalms were written after David’s confrontation with Nathan? And are you seriously entertaining the notion that many of David’s beautiful and inspiring Psalms were written by a son of perdition? That David wasn’t evinciing sincere repentance in our scriptures but only putting on a cynical, manipulative act?

Doesn’t David’s repentant and deeply remorseful attitude make much more sense in light of the fact that, as the prophet Joseph Smith testified in his previously mentioned 1841 sermon, David would eventually be forgiven and receive a measure of mercy?

Finally, do you have any evidence that David, who reigned during the administration of the lesser Aaronic priesthood and the lesser Mosaic Law, held the Melchizedek Priesthood? One can only become a son of perdition after receiving the fulness of the Melchizedec priesthood and making his calling and election sure. And don’t say it’s because he was plurally married because plural marriage was permitted under the Mosaic Law in the Holy Land. 

 

Well, it's certainly debatable on what requirements it takes to become a son of perfition. Lots of opinions exist but in truth it's one of two things or a combination of the two. The first is a turning away altogether from Christ. One must not hold a high level of priesthood to become a son of perfition. The 1/3 host of heaven all chose to follow Satan and thus are son's of perfition. Pretty sure they didn't have the high levels of the priesthood. The second is committing the unpardonable sin.  David committed the unpardonable sin. He shall not be forgiven.

[JohnsonJones]

7 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Well, it's certainly debatable on what requirements it takes to become a son of perfition. Lots of opinions exist but in truth it's one of two things or a combination of the two. The first is a turning away altogether from Christ. One must not hold a high level of priesthood to become a son of perfition. The 1/3 host of heaven all chose to follow Satan and thus are son's of perfition. Pretty sure they didn't have the high levels of the priesthood. The second is committing the unpardonable sin.  David committed the unpardonable sin. He shall not be forgiven.

What is the unpardonable sin?

From what I understand it is the Denial or Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost.  It is to deny the Lord even as you know him, and then to fight against him and try to destroy him and his works.

In a way Denial is denying the Holy Ghost to work on you and to deny it's ability to help you repent and receive forgiveness.  This is due to how hard hearted you have become and how avid you have become against the Lord and all he is and represents.  You would rather be destroyed than to accept him or anything from him.

David does not seem to fulfill this.

He committed two very terrible sins.  The first was adultery and the second was murder.  From the departure of the spirit from him it would probably have been VERY EASY for him to go full evil at that point and deny the ability to be forgiven.  As he had already tried to cover and hide his first sin with an even greater sin, he could have continued down this path to go full on denial. 

However, it seems to me that Nathan turned him away from this and thus, he was able to enact repentance in this life.  Thus, he will still suffer for his sins for a time, but in the end be allowed to be returned to the lowest degree of glory.

If I understand how you feel the afterlife works, you feel as if there is a form of reincarnation where those who die but inherit the telestial glory thus return to a telestial world (aka...the earth) to give it another go.  Thus, in your idea, it would mean that David would suffer for his sins for a while, but through the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ be saved to go to a telestial world in a telestial body. 

I feel that the telestial Kingdom is a permanent place (rather than a temporary place) though this world itself is a telestial world (and once was an immortal world as well until the fall of Adam and Eve at which point it became a MORTAL world instead where things die), it is not congruent with the Telestial Kingdom as of yet.

However, in both beliefs, David could suffer for a time, as the Lord stated, but still be saved to a telestial state later.

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

What is the unpardonable sin?

From what I understand it is the Denial or Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost.  It is to deny the Lord even as you know him, and then to fight against him and try to destroy him and his works.

In a way Denial is denying the Holy Ghost to work on you and to deny it's ability to help you repent and receive forgiveness.  This is due to how hard hearted you have become and how avid you have become against the Lord and all he is and represents.  You would rather be destroyed than to accept him or anything from him.

David does not seem to fulfill this.

He committed two very terrible sins.  The first was adultery and the second was murder.  From the departure of the spirit from him it would probably have been VERY EASY for him to go full evil at that point and deny the ability to be forgiven.  As he had already tried to cover and hide his first sin with an even greater sin, he could have continued down this path to go full on denial. 

However, it seems to me that Nathan turned him away from this and thus, he was able to enact repentance in this life.  Thus, he will still suffer for his sins for a time, but in the end be allowed to be returned to the lowest degree of glory.

If I understand how you feel the afterlife works, you feel as if there is a form of reincarnation where those who die but inherit the telestial glory thus return to a telestial world (aka...the earth) to give it another go.  Thus, in your idea, it would mean that David would suffer for his sins for a while, but through the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ be saved to go to a telestial world in a telestial body. 

I feel that the telestial Kingdom is a permanent place (rather than a temporary place) though this world itself is a telestial world (and once was an immortal world as well until the fall of Adam and Eve at which point it became a MORTAL world instead where things die), it is not congruent with the Telestial Kingdom as of yet.

However, in both beliefs, David could suffer for a time, as the Lord stated, but still be saved to a telestial state later.

The scriptures state David fell from his exaltation. He was forgiven all of his sins except the muder of Uriah. In that case he sinned against Christ. I tend to think people just don't understand the ramifications of this action. David was highly favored of the Lord. He had many blessings afforded to him. He committed a series of sins which led up to his devious plan to hide his dark deeds from the Lord. Uriah was his good friend, he tried to trick him to cover his infidelity. Uriah didn't fall for it because he had some ethics in his life about his fellow friends on the line in the war. And so, David had him killed. He thought he had gotten away with it but Nathan caught him in this.

The thing that makes this so bad was that it didn't matter who it was that David had killed, he was going to do it. Just like Judas Iscariot, life at that point became a price and the list for retaining or gaining power was all that mattered. It is their position they had with the Lord that makes it unforgivable.

[Rob Osborn]

3 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

I feel that the telestial Kingdom is a permanent place (rather than a temporary place) though this world itself is a telestial world (and once was an immortal world as well until the fall of Adam and Eve at which point it became a MORTAL world instead where things die), it is not congruent with the Telestial Kingdom as of yet.

Why would the telestial kingdom be permanent? If it's God's work and glory to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man why would God have a kingdom of stagnation that doesn't work towards his goal? Every law, ordinance and covenant God has given man is for the sole purpose of advancing man into the very type of being God himself is. Why? Because that's God's work and glory. Ultimately, man cannot serve two masters, for he will hate the one and love the other. Everyone will either gravitate towards godliness or wickedness in the end. There will be no in between, no fence sitters.

[JohnsonJones]

4 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Why would the telestial kingdom be permanent? If it's God's work and glory to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man why would God have a kingdom of stagnation that doesn't work towards his goal? Every law, ordinance and covenant God has given man is for the sole purpose of advancing man into the very type of being God himself is. Why? Because that's God's work and glory. Ultimately, man cannot serve two masters, for he will hate the one and love the other. Everyone will either gravitate towards godliness or wickedness in the end. There will be no in between, no fence sitters.

That's his work and his glory, but does not mean that he will force anyone to be there.  He gave us our free agency so WE could choose and WE could know who we are and what or where we want to be.

Those in the Telestial Kingdom are NOT fence sitters.  To assume this is ridiculous.  They CHOOSE...whether in this life or the next, to accept the Lord.  They do not reject the Holy Spirit or the Lord and thus inherit the glory of their choice.  The Kingdom they receive is as perfect as the Garden of Eden prior to the Fall.  It is something so glorious that most of us would probably die just to get there. 

The Lord is NOT going to force us to be someone we are not, nor be someplace where we do not wish to go.  Man is that he may have joy.  There is very little Joy in the Adversary's plan of forcing us to go where we don't want to choose to go. 

Now, on the following, we probably are going to not see eye to eye on what we feel is how it works.  I think I understand your point of view, but there are things that I believe differently from you.  That boils down to more personal thought rather than something that is highly important to mine or your salvation (in my opinion).

The Telestial Kingdom is permanent for the same reason the Terrestrial Kingdom is permanent and the Celestial Kingdom is Permanent...though Permanent is probably the improper word for it.

The Celestial Kingdom is eternal as is the Terrestrial and the Telestial Kingdoms.  However, only ONE kingdom offers us exaltation and eternal life in which it would be a life where we return to live with our Spiritual Father.  The others are STILL within his Kingdom though and one would be able to feel his presence and influence.  They will be able to spend time with the Son or, even in the lowest Kingdom, the messengers and servants of the Most High.

There they spend an eternity...though eternity in my opinion is NOT something based on time (hence the word permanent is probably not the right connotation).  It is something beyond time where things are more of an eternal round.  There is NO time there, and as such things there are SET.  Thus they DO NOT change, as you need time to change things, and when time is non-existence, you cannot change.  Hence, why once you receive the Telestial Glory in the Kingdom of Heaven, you are not going to change Kingdoms all that quickly.

This is also why any ordinances need to be accomplished in this life, or this mortality.  It is ONLY in this world or this time that these things can be accomplished.  Once out of this world and out of time, you CANNOT change these things.  It is one reason WHY this life is so important, for this is the time for us to prepare and to do that which is necessary for us to return to live with our Father (if that is truly the desire of our soul).

Just my thoughts, but not necessarily something most would agree with...and that's okay.  We are discussing things that are not specifically known in a great detail to most, and so differing thoughts on this aspect is to be expected.  As long as we try to understand what others are saying and talking about, it is probably more important in these categories (which I do not think are especially essential to understand in this life for us to be saved or to gain exaltation and as such are trivial overall) to discuss with understanding trying to understand anothers point of view rather than say who is right or who is wrong or try to say we have the high ground or low ground. 

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, JohnsonJones said:

That's his work and his glory, but does not mean that he will force anyone to be there.  He gave us our free agency so WE could choose and WE could know who we are and what or where we want to be.

Those in the Telestial Kingdom are NOT fence sitters.  To assume this is ridiculous.  They CHOOSE...whether in this life or the next, to accept the Lord.  They do not reject the Holy Spirit or the Lord and thus inherit the glory of their choice.  The Kingdom they receive is as perfect as the Garden of Eden prior to the Fall.  It is something so glorious that most of us would probably die just to get there. 

The Lord is NOT going to force us to be someone we are not, nor be someplace where we do not wish to go.  Man is that he may have joy.  There is very little Joy in the Adversary's plan of forcing us to go where we don't want to choose to go. 

Now, on the following, we probably are going to not see eye to eye on what we feel is how it works.  I think I understand your point of view, but there are things that I believe differently from you.  That boils down to more personal thought rather than something that is highly important to mine or your salvation (in my opinion).

The Telestial Kingdom is permanent for the same reason the Terrestrial Kingdom is permanent and the Celestial Kingdom is Permanent...though Permanent is probably the improper word for it.

The Celestial Kingdom is eternal as is the Terrestrial and the Telestial Kingdoms.  However, only ONE kingdom offers us exaltation and eternal life in which it would be a life where we return to live with our Spiritual Father.  The others are STILL within his Kingdom though and one would be able to feel his presence and influence.  They will be able to spend time with the Son or, even in the lowest Kingdom, the messengers and servants of the Most High.

There they spend an eternity...though eternity in my opinion is NOT something based on time (hence the word permanent is probably not the right connotation).  It is something beyond time where things are more of an eternal round.  There is NO time there, and as such things there are SET.  Thus they DO NOT change, as you need time to change things, and when time is non-existence, you cannot change.  Hence, why once you receive the Telestial Glory in the Kingdom of Heaven, you are not going to change Kingdoms all that quickly.

This is also why any ordinances need to be accomplished in this life, or this mortality.  It is ONLY in this world or this time that these things can be accomplished.  Once out of this world and out of time, you CANNOT change these things.  It is one reason WHY this life is so important, for this is the time for us to prepare and to do that which is necessary for us to return to live with our Father (if that is truly the desire of our soul).

Just my thoughts, but not necessarily something most would agree with...and that's okay.  We are discussing things that are not specifically known in a great detail to most, and so differing thoughts on this aspect is to be expected.  As long as we try to understand what others are saying and talking about, it is probably more important in these categories (which I do not think are especially essential to understand in this life for us to be saved or to gain exaltation and as such are trivial overall) to discuss with understanding trying to understand anothers point of view rather than say who is right or who is wrong or try to say we have the high ground or low ground. 

We as mortals have a very hard time in seeing the stages of men's progression. We are so far shortsighted. An analogy- just like kids just learning how to ride a bike and we fail over and over and start to think it's impossible to do it. We are like these kids learning and thinking it impossible that it's possible that it can be accomplished. The truth is that everyone who starts learning to ride a bike eventually do end up learning how. Some may learn really fast and others it takes some time but everyone who begins learning eventually get it or walk away from it forever. 

I think it could be worded to say God's work and glory is to bring to pass the Celestial glory of man and all those who accept the Savior get there.

[Rob Osborn]

On 1/8/2019 at 11:15 AM, Jersey Boy said:

If you are willing to take on the challenge, all you have to do is start by copying and pasting verse 16, along with your own best thoughtful analytical interpretation of what you believe the verse is teaching; I will then respond with my own interpretation of verse 16. Then you can continue the process by copying and posting verse 17 along with your commentary, and I’ll respond by doing the same. So as to keep things clear and simple throughout , we’ll hold off on directly debating each other on any points of disagreement until after the last verse has been analyzed .Hope you’re willing to take on this challenge because it could be enlightening and fun

So, you want to or not?

[JohnsonJones]

5 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

We as mortals have a very hard time in seeing the stages of men's progression. We are so far shortsighted. An analogy- just like kids just learning how to ride a bike and we fail over and over and start to think it's impossible to do it. We are like these kids learning and thinking it impossible that it's possible that it can be accomplished. The truth is that everyone who starts learning to ride a bike eventually do end up learning how. Some may learn really fast and others it takes some time but everyone who begins learning eventually get it or walk away from it forever. 

I think it could be worded to say God's work and glory is to bring to pass the Celestial glory of man and all those who accept the Savior get there.

I think we agree on many things, but there are some things I think we may not see the same.

For example, I think you misunderstand the cycle of progress as presented in the scriptures.  In the scriptures there is an end state for all, and as such we are judged whether we were good or evil in this life.  For many of those who are Latter-day Saints this means that we end up in the Telestial, Terrestrial, or Celestial Kingdom.

The Kicker is that in order to get to the Terrestrial life, we must have already lived and gotten past a Telestial life.  In order to get toe Celestial Glory, we must have already lived a Terrestrial way of life.

In MY OPINION

This is NOT something that is done via reincarnation, nor is it something that is done via progressing from kingdom to Kingdom after this life.  It is accomplished in this one life we have or not at all.

We see this as a type and shadow as given to us in the Scriptures.  Prophets in the past have talked about this (though I haven't heard it for many years now, it used to be discussed).

We all start with a Telestial life.  We all are living in a Telestial world.  As such we are living Telestial laws.  Our society is a lesser society that is either less than Telestial or lives up to a Telestial ideal.  However, when we start following and living the commandments we can start living a Terrestrial life.  It may not be a sudden change that everyone notices, but some may notice a change if it were a sudden change. 

We see this in the scriptures.  There are several instances where the society and land where people were living in was transformed from a Telestial way of life to a Terrestrial way of life.  The prime example we can should read in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints can be found in the Book of Mormon.  In the Book of Mormon the people were living a very Telestial way of life or worse until they were visited by the Savior.  After his visit they were living a higher law among themselves and their society became a Terrestrial type of society.  There were centuries of peace as they lived in this manner.  In this way they progressed while still on this earth from a Telestial to a Terrestrial state of living.  It was not something that transformed their bodies in an instant, but instead they became more Terrestrial as their bodies were filled with the Spirit.

In the same way their society was filled with the Spirit and the land as well so that the Adversary could not destroy this society of theirs for a long time.  He had no place among them and they lived under the full law of the Lord.

Another example in the scriptures of this type of progress is found with the City of Enoch.  In this they also progressed from a Telestial to a Terrestrial way of life.  As they lived the Laws of the Lord they became a very blessed people, probably MUCH like those of the Nephite Nation after they were visited in the Americas.  Their society was taken a step further and though they got elevated as a city to an even higher state, eventually as they are righteous they will advance from the Terrestrial to a Celestial glory (if it has not already happened, it may have, or it may be that they will come back during the Millenium in a Terrestrial state).  Once again, originally it was accomplished by what one would see as a natural blessing of the spirit.  They were filled with the Spirit constantly and thus so was their society.  As such, their city was a Terrestrial place on this Telestial plane.

This same idea also is predicted to happen to the whole world (so not just a smaller location).  When the Millennium comes we have been told that life will be much like it is now.  The difference will be that we will be so righteous that the adversary will have no power over us or society. In this way he will be bound and will not be able to affect the world.  The world itself, as the people are filled with the Spirit, will become a Terrestrial inhabitation.  This is a natural consequence of those people living the Terrestrial laws given forth, which are the commandments of the Higher law given in the New Testament.  It is the spirit coming upon all of them in abundance and always with them and their society.  It is so great in the Millennium that it will affect even the rest of the world and what occurs in it.

Thus, the idea is a type and shadow for us.  We do not have to wait until the next life to have a Terrestrial type of existence today.  In fact, if we follow the scriptures, if anything, it shows that if we do as those did with the City of Enoch, or those in the Nephite society, or those during the Millennium, that our personal life can be lived as if a Terrestrial type of existence.  This is a natural progression of those in the Church today and should be sought after.

The ideal is that within the church we have at least a Terrestrial type of society or way of living (if not higher).  Unless we are able to get beyond the veil, we cannot ascend to a Celestial glory, but we can try to live all the Commandments that we have been given thus far.

Just because a person is living a Terrestrial type of life does NOT mean they cannot fall away from it.  Once again, we have examples in the scriptures that show us what can happen.

The Nephite civilization eventually did not follow the Lord as a civilization and many fell away.  As this happened the blessings they experienced ended and great evil and conflict grew among them.  After such great blessings, they became more hard and evil then they had been previously.  They fell upon each other and were destroyed.

The same happens to many members today who had the blessings and spirituality of the Lord upon them.  Normally the worst and strongest enemies opposed to the church come from those who used to be members.  They reject the higher law and the great authority of the Lord and become so bitter that their fall is great. 

This same cycle is predicted to occur at the end of the Millennial reign.  At that time it will be as with the Nephites and the world will fall to wickedness.  It is at the end of that where the world will end and then the world (though not all that were in it) will become gain it's own celestial glory.

This idea may be spoken of and demonstrated elsewhere (and as you talk I expect this example elsewhere is where you gain some of your ideas), but it is clearly demonstrated in the scriptures.  We are to advance in our own way of living from being holding onto a Telestial way of life before we are baptized and do the ordinances required of us, to start living a Terrestrial way of life.  This is supposed to be something we do IN THIS LIFE.  As we advance from living the lower law to becoming perfect and living the Higher law, we can attain a Terrestrial state in this life, even if not the Terrestrial glory at that time.  In fact, it is expected of us to do so. 

There is a difference between the rewards of the Kingdoms given AFTER we pass on and the judgments that are given that send us to either a Telestial, Terrestrial, or Celestial Glory in my way of thinking, and that reward is eternal.  It is our eternal reward.  If we have not lived in at least a Terrestrial manner in this life, it is impossible for us to attain a Celestial state in the life hereafter.  If man has not striven to live at least a Telestial law in this life (at least the Lower Law or at least all the commandments he/she has been given) for our time, it is impossible for them to attain a Terrestrial glory in the life hereafter.  For those who did not even live the Telestial laws, it will be given that they are in such a higher state in the hereafter.

In this way we are glorified and given great rewards for what we do in this life.  It may be that for some they even achieve living the Celestial state (but obviously NOT the glory) in this life, but the scriptures really don't touch upon that (at least that I know of).

Thus, while you may feel it is something that occurs after this life, I feel that this change of heart needs happen to us IN THIS LIFE.  IT IS IN THIS LIFE that we determine whether we are Telestial type beings, Terrestrial type beings, or Celestial type beings (or, for those unfortunate few, those who qualify for none of the three kingdoms).  It is in THIS LIFE that we can demonstrate our willingness and ability to live the lower or higher law that we receive in the Old and New Testament (As well as the Book  of Mormon).  I would in fact say this is actually necessary for us to progress in our understanding and the way we live and it is even expected of us.

When I see your thoughts, I see that we agree on a great many things, but I think that we might not see eye to eye in some others.  I could be absolutely wrong in my view, as this is merely what I think as per what I've read in the scriptures and heard discussed by General Authorities (albeit, some time ago).  I am certain it is not something believed by all, and perhaps just as few think that my thoughts are accurate (and perhaps think the whole of it is inaccurate) as they do with many of your thoughts.  However, it is my way of thinking that when we talk about the Telestial, Terrestrial, and Celestial we often ascribe that life to some far off distant afterlife, when in reality we can live that type of life (though probably not that glory, though some have attained a Terrestrial body in this life even) and live in that type of state in the HERE and NOW.  I'd say as we make covenants with the Lord it is even expected that we will progress in this way and live a higher law than that which we lived before.

Just my thoughts and hopefully that clarifies what I think in regards to our stages of progression.  It is THIS life that we are to prepare to meet God, and as such our eternal reward is determined by WHAT manner of life we lead.

 

(PS: I may eventually put this in my thread of musings after some more thought on it).

[Guest Scott]

9 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

The scriptures state David fell from his exaltation.

Exaltation is the highest tier of the Celestial Kingdom (there are three tiers in the Celestial Kingdom).   Even in the Celestial Kingdom many people don't receive exaltation.  

[Jersey Boy]

19 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Well, it's certainly debatable on what requirements it takes to become a son of perfition. Lots of opinions exist but in truth it's one of two things or a combination of the two. The first is a turning away altogether from Christ. One must not hold a high level of priesthood to become a son of perfition. The 1/3 host of heaven all chose to follow Satan and thus are son's of perfition. Pretty sure they didn't have the high levels of the priesthood. The second is committing the unpardonable sin.  David committed the unpardonable sin. He shall not be forgiven.

You confirm that turning away altogether from Christ is one of the characteristics of the sons of perdition, yet it’s obvious from the Psalms David wrote after his transgression — some of which are quoted approvingly as scripture in the New Testament — that he did not turn away altogether from Christ. 

You say that no priestood is necessary in order to become a son of perdition, yet the scriptures say otherwise:

27 The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord. (D&C 132)

The only way individuals can receive the fulness of the new and everlasting covenant is to receive the Melchizedek Priesthood temple endowment, and be sealed in the temple to a spouse for time and all eternity by someone holding Melchizedek Priesthood sealing power of Elijah. Joseph Smith is on record saying that David did not hold the fulness of the priesthood and that he never enjoyed the blessings of the priesthood power of Elijah. 

One of the reasons why you’re doggedly holding on to your false idea about the fate of David, even though the prophet Joseph Smith at least twice clearly says otherwise, is that you apparently fail to properly understand what the above verse of scripture is actually saying. You see, the verse says that the sons of perdition not only commit murder after gloriously partaking of the new and everlasting covenant , but that they must also hate Christ enough to want to “crucify him afresh” and, if possible, dethrone him, destroy him and usurp his throne. It’s plain to see from the love David still deeply felt for Christ, as recorded in His post-transgression Psalms,  that David still worshipped the Savior and wanted him to remain his God. 

27 The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, AND ASSENT UNTO MY DEATH, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord. (D&C 132)

So do you now understand that committing murder isn’t enough to become a son of perdition, for such individuals must commit murder after receiving the new and everlasting temple covenants of the Melchizedek Priesthood,  and further, assent unto Christ’s death with unquenchable hatred? I kinda doubt it because the cognitive dissonance you’ll experience by having to admit you’re wrong for once might be too much to bear.

As to your last point: Are you aware of the fact that the prophet Joseph Smith taught that we also held the priesthood when we were preexistent spirits? 

 

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

I think we agree on many things, but there are some things I think we may not see the same.

For example, I think you misunderstand the cycle of progress as presented in the scriptures.  In the scriptures there is an end state for all, and as such we are judged whether we were good or evil in this life.  For many of those who are Latter-day Saints this means that we end up in the Telestial, Terrestrial, or Celestial Kingdom.

The Kicker is that in order to get to the Terrestrial life, we must have already lived and gotten past a Telestial life.  In order to get toe Celestial Glory, we must have already lived a Terrestrial way of life.

In MY OPINION

This is NOT something that is done via reincarnation, nor is it something that is done via progressing from kingdom to Kingdom after this life.  It is accomplished in this one life we have or not at all.

We see this as a type and shadow as given to us in the Scriptures.  Prophets in the past have talked about this (though I haven't heard it for many years now, it used to be discussed).

We all start with a Telestial life.  We all are living in a Telestial world.  As such we are living Telestial laws.  Our society is a lesser society that is either less than Telestial or lives up to a Telestial ideal.  However, when we start following and living the commandments we can start living a Terrestrial life.  It may not be a sudden change that everyone notices, but some may notice a change if it were a sudden change. 

We see this in the scriptures.  There are several instances where the society and land where people were living in was transformed from a Telestial way of life to a Terrestrial way of life.  The prime example we can should read in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints can be found in the Book of Mormon.  In the Book of Mormon the people were living a very Telestial way of life or worse until they were visited by the Savior.  After his visit they were living a higher law among themselves and their society became a Terrestrial type of society.  There were centuries of peace as they lived in this manner.  In this way they progressed while still on this earth from a Telestial to a Terrestrial state of living.  It was not something that transformed their bodies in an instant, but instead they became more Terrestrial as their bodies were filled with the Spirit.

In the same way their society was filled with the Spirit and the land as well so that the Adversary could not destroy this society of theirs for a long time.  He had no place among them and they lived under the full law of the Lord.

Another example in the scriptures of this type of progress is found with the City of Enoch.  In this they also progressed from a Telestial to a Terrestrial way of life.  As they lived the Laws of the Lord they became a very blessed people, probably MUCH like those of the Nephite Nation after they were visited in the Americas.  Their society was taken a step further and though they got elevated as a city to an even higher state, eventually as they are righteous they will advance from the Terrestrial to a Celestial glory (if it has not already happened, it may have, or it may be that they will come back during the Millenium in a Terrestrial state).  Once again, originally it was accomplished by what one would see as a natural blessing of the spirit.  They were filled with the Spirit constantly and thus so was their society.  As such, their city was a Terrestrial place on this Telestial plane.

This same idea also is predicted to happen to the whole world (so not just a smaller location).  When the Millennium comes we have been told that life will be much like it is now.  The difference will be that we will be so righteous that the adversary will have no power over us or society. In this way he will be bound and will not be able to affect the world.  The world itself, as the people are filled with the Spirit, will become a Terrestrial inhabitation.  This is a natural consequence of those people living the Terrestrial laws given forth, which are the commandments of the Higher law given in the New Testament.  It is the spirit coming upon all of them in abundance and always with them and their society.  It is so great in the Millennium that it will affect even the rest of the world and what occurs in it.

Thus, the idea is a type and shadow for us.  We do not have to wait until the next life to have a Terrestrial type of existence today.  In fact, if we follow the scriptures, if anything, it shows that if we do as those did with the City of Enoch, or those in the Nephite society, or those during the Millennium, that our personal life can be lived as if a Terrestrial type of existence.  This is a natural progression of those in the Church today and should be sought after.

The ideal is that within the church we have at least a Terrestrial type of society or way of living (if not higher).  Unless we are able to get beyond the veil, we cannot ascend to a Celestial glory, but we can try to live all the Commandments that we have been given thus far.

Just because a person is living a Terrestrial type of life does NOT mean they cannot fall away from it.  Once again, we have examples in the scriptures that show us what can happen.

The Nephite civilization eventually did not follow the Lord as a civilization and many fell away.  As this happened the blessings they experienced ended and great evil and conflict grew among them.  After such great blessings, they became more hard and evil then they had been previously.  They fell upon each other and were destroyed.

The same happens to many members today who had the blessings and spirituality of the Lord upon them.  Normally the worst and strongest enemies opposed to the church come from those who used to be members.  They reject the higher law and the great authority of the Lord and become so bitter that their fall is great. 

This same cycle is predicted to occur at the end of the Millennial reign.  At that time it will be as with the Nephites and the world will fall to wickedness.  It is at the end of that where the world will end and then the world (though not all that were in it) will become gain it's own celestial glory.

This idea may be spoken of and demonstrated elsewhere (and as you talk I expect this example elsewhere is where you gain some of your ideas), but it is clearly demonstrated in the scriptures.  We are to advance in our own way of living from being holding onto a Telestial way of life before we are baptized and do the ordinances required of us, to start living a Terrestrial way of life.  This is supposed to be something we do IN THIS LIFE.  As we advance from living the lower law to becoming perfect and living the Higher law, we can attain a Terrestrial state in this life, even if not the Terrestrial glory at that time.  In fact, it is expected of us to do so. 

There is a difference between the rewards of the Kingdoms given AFTER we pass on and the judgments that are given that send us to either a Telestial, Terrestrial, or Celestial Glory in my way of thinking, and that reward is eternal.  It is our eternal reward.  If we have not lived in at least a Terrestrial manner in this life, it is impossible for us to attain a Celestial state in the life hereafter.  If man has not striven to live at least a Telestial law in this life (at least the Lower Law or at least all the commandments he/she has been given) for our time, it is impossible for them to attain a Terrestrial glory in the life hereafter.  For those who did not even live the Telestial laws, it will be given that they are in such a higher state in the hereafter.

In this way we are glorified and given great rewards for what we do in this life.  It may be that for some they even achieve living the Celestial state (but obviously NOT the glory) in this life, but the scriptures really don't touch upon that (at least that I know of).

Thus, while you may feel it is something that occurs after this life, I feel that this change of heart needs happen to us IN THIS LIFE.  IT IS IN THIS LIFE that we determine whether we are Telestial type beings, Terrestrial type beings, or Celestial type beings (or, for those unfortunate few, those who qualify for none of the three kingdoms).  It is in THIS LIFE that we can demonstrate our willingness and ability to live the lower or higher law that we receive in the Old and New Testament (As well as the Book  of Mormon).  I would in fact say this is actually necessary for us to progress in our understanding and the way we live and it is even expected of us.

When I see your thoughts, I see that we agree on a great many things, but I think that we might not see eye to eye in some others.  I could be absolutely wrong in my view, as this is merely what I think as per what I've read in the scriptures and heard discussed by General Authorities (albeit, some time ago).  I am certain it is not something believed by all, and perhaps just as few think that my thoughts are accurate (and perhaps think the whole of it is inaccurate) as they do with many of your thoughts.  However, it is my way of thinking that when we talk about the Telestial, Terrestrial, and Celestial we often ascribe that life to some far off distant afterlife, when in reality we can live that type of life (though probably not that glory, though some have attained a Terrestrial body in this life even) and live in that type of state in the HERE and NOW.  I'd say as we make covenants with the Lord it is even expected that we will progress in this way and live a higher law than that which we lived before.

Just my thoughts and hopefully that clarifies what I think in regards to our stages of progression.  It is THIS life that we are to prepare to meet God, and as such our eternal reward is determined by WHAT manner of life we lead.

 

(PS: I may eventually put this in my thread of musings after some more thought on it).

Some good insights. It's interesting that even in LDS theology there are massive holes. We certainly have a long ways to go to get all the doctrine lined up.

My own view is that none of us earn Celestial glory in this life, it's too hard. Celestial glory requires perfection which is complete spotlessness and sinlessness. Our progression takes us through the telestial kingdom with it's glory of the Holy Ghost for those worthy, to the terrestrial with it's glory of the resurrected Christ for those worthy, to the Celestial with it's glory of the presence of the Father. Much of our progression will happen in the millennium.

Paramount to the conversation though is the fact that in order to be saved from hell one must become perfectly spotless as the scriptures teach. This means that the person must become changed from their fallen and carnal state to a godly state full of righteousness. Christ will not nor cannot save a person in their sins. Said another way, Christ cannot nor will not save a person who has not taken upon him or herself all of the saving laws and ordinances by covenant in the Lord's holy temple. Living by all of these covenants are not possible on this Earth. But, they will be available in their fullest in the next life during the millennium. Have you ever wondered what we will be doing for a thousand years on the earth void of Satan? Perfecting ourselves through Christ. Thus, at the end of the millennium Christ will then present the kingdom, as a singular kingdom, to the Father perfectly spotless. Christ will save no others.

This is where I like to bring in the parable of the wheat and the tares. In the parable the wheat represent the children of God- the righteous. The tares are the children of the devil- the wicked. In the end, at harvest, the wheat are all stored in the garners to be crowned with Celestial glory while the tares are all bound to be burned. This saving the wheat with Celestial glory is the singular kingdom Christ has made spotless. There are no other options, only those two.

65 Therefore, I must gather together my people, according to the parable of the wheat and the tares, that the wheat may be secured in the garners to possess eternal life, and be crowned with celestial glory, when I shall come in the kingdom of my Father to reward every man according as his work shall be;
            66 While the tares shall be bound in bundles, and their bands made strong, that they may be burned with unquenchable fire. (D&C 101:65-66)

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, Jersey Boy said:

You confirm that turning away altogether from Christ is one of the characteristics of the sons of perdition, yet it’s obvious from the Psalms David wrote after his transgression — some of which are quoted approvingly as scripture in the New Testament — that he did not turn away altogether from Christ. 

You say that no priestood is necessary in order to become a son of perdition, yet the scriptures say otherwise:

27 The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord. (D&C 132)

The only way individuals can receive the fulness of the new and everlasting covenant is to receive the Melchizedek Priesthood temple endowment, and be sealed in the temple to a spouse for time and all eternity by someone holding Melchizedek Priesthood sealing power of Elijah. Joseph Smith is on record saying that David did not hold the fulness of the priesthood and that he never enjoyed the blessings of the priesthood power of Elijah. 

One of the reasons why you’re doggedly holding on to your false idea about the fate of David, even though the prophet Joseph Smith at least twice clearly says otherwise, is that you apparently fail to properly understand what the above verse of scripture is actually saying. You see, the verse says that the sons of perdition not only commit murder after gloriously partaking of the new and everlasting covenant , but that they must also hate Christ enough to want to “crucify him afresh” and, if possible, dethrone him, destroy him and usurp his throne. It’s plain to see from the love David still deeply felt for Christ, as recorded in His post-transgression Psalms,  that David still worshipped the Savior and wanted him to remain his God. 

27 The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, AND ASSENT UNTO MY DEATH, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord. (D&C 132)

So do you now understand that committing murder isn’t enough to become a son of perdition, for such individuals must commit murder after receiving the new and everlasting temple covenants of the Melchizedek Priesthood,  and further, assent unto Christ’s death with unquenchable hatred? I kinda doubt it because the cognitive dissonance you’ll experience by having to admit you’re wrong for once might be too much to bear.

As to your last point: Are you aware of the fact that the prophet Joseph Smith taught that we also held the priesthood when we were preexistent spirits? 

 

It's obvious you are not reading or understanding section 132 correctly. Section 132 explains that with David, he did fall from his exaltation because he had entered into the priesthood covenant and then murdered. So yes, David did assent unto Christ's death.

We aren't really getting anywhere. You believe your way, I believe my way, and oh well-being we disagree. Time to move on.

[Just_A_Guy]

4 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

It's obvious you are not reading or understanding section 132 correctly. 

Well, he’s in good company.

“David sought repentance at the hand of God carefully with tears, for the murder of Uriah; but he could only get it through hell: he got a promise that his soul should not be left in hell” (TPJS 339).

That Joseph Smith.  What a chucklehead!  Too bad he didn’t have someone to explain D&C 132 to him.  

[Rob Osborn]

1 minute ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Well, he’s in good company.

 

 

That Joseph Smith.  What a chucklehead!  Too bad he didn’t have someone to explain D&C 132 to him.  

I'm not even gonna quote section 132 where it says otherwise. Good day.

[Jersey Boy]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

It's obvious you are not reading or understanding section 132 correctly. Section 132 explains that with David, he did fall from his exaltation because he had entered into the priesthood covenant and then murdered. So yes, David did assent unto Christ's death.

We aren't really getting anywhere. You believe your way, I believe my way, and oh well-being we disagree. Time to move on.

In the History of the Church, the prophet Joseph Smith says although David was the king of Israel he didn’t possess the fullness of the priesthood and didn’t enjoy the blessings of the sealing power of Elijah, therefore he couldn’t have participated in the ordinances pertaining to the new and everlasting covenant.  It’s also plain to see that after his transgression he didn’t turn away altogether from God, nor possess an unquenchable desire to crucify the Son of God afresh, but rather steadfastly sought forgiveness with tears. In addition, Joseph Smith, the author of D&C 132, explained at least two times that David would eventually be forgiven. Yet none of this has had any affect on your mind to even begin to consider that you may be in error on this point.

When even the official clarifying statements of the prophet Joseph Smith on the subject carry zero weight in making an impression on your mind, there really does seem to be no point in carrying on a discussion. You appear to have a near infinite capacity to explain things away so as to be able to zealously hold on to your pet ideas, even when they are at extreme odds with the official doctrine of the Church and the teachings of the living oracles of God.

I believe you’ve arrived at this heretical impasse because you sincerely wanted to find a way to make the teachings of the plan of salvation in the Doctrine and Covenants harmonize with the Book of Mormon’s presentation (remember, the Book of Mormon says of itself that it contains the more basic portion of the word of God), but you ended up arriving at concepts that are only partially correct, What you should have also done is reverse the process and attempt to find a way to get the Book of Mormon’s more basic teachings to harmonize with the more advanced teachings in the Doctrine & Covenants as well as the official doctrines of the Church.

I have succeeded at doing this, finding a way to harmonize the Book of Mormons more basic teachings with the more advanced and enlarged teachings on the plan of salvation found in the Doctrine & Covenants. It’s a wonderful feeling knowing I’ve found a way to fully harmonize the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine & Covenant’s revelations on the plan of salvation without having to advance heretical doctrines that place me at odds with the Church and it’s leaders. I had faith that the living prophets were correct and my faithful efforts were richly rewarded

There’s little chance I’ll be engaging much with you in the future because I’m not interested in participating discussions that seem to inevitably end up being exercises in frustration.

Best wished, Ted

Edited January 10, 2019 by Jersey Boy

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, Jersey Boy said:

In the History of the Church, the prophet Joseph Smith says although David was the king of Israel he didn’t possess the fullness of the priesthood and didn’t enjoy the blessings of the sealing power of Elijah, therefore he couldn’t have participated in the ordinances pertaining to the new and everlasting covenant.  It’s also plain to see that after his transgression he didn’t turn away altogether from God, nor possess an unquenchable desire to crucify the Son of God afresh, but rather steadfastly sought forgiveness with tears. In addition, Joseph Smith, the author of D&C 132, explained at least two times that David would eventually be forgiven. Yet none of this has had any affect on your mind to even begin to consider that you may be in error on this point.

When even the official clarifying statements of the prophet Joseph Smith on the subject carry zero weight in making an impression on your mind, there really does seem to be no point in carrying on a discussion. You appear to have a near infinite capacity to explain things away so as to be able to zealously hold on to your pet ideas, even when they are at extreme odds with the official doctrine of the Church and the teachings of the living oracles of God.

I believe you’ve arrived at this heretical impasse because you sincerely wanted to find a way to make the teachings of the plan of salvation in the Doctrine and Covenants harmonize with the Book of Mormon’s presentation (remember, the Book of Mormon says of itself that it contains the more basic portion of the word of God), but you ended up arriving at concepts that are only partially correct, What you should have also done is reverse the process and attempt to find a way to get the Book of Mormon’s more basic teachings to harmonize with the more advanced teachings in the Doctrine & Covenants as well as the official doctrines of the Church.

I have succeeded at doing this, finding a way to harmonize the Book of Mormons more basic teachings with the more advanced and enlarged teachings on the plan of salvation found in the Doctrine & Covenants. It’s a wonderful feeling knowing I’ve found a way to fully harmonize the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine & Covenant’s revelations on the plan of salvation without having to advance heretical doctrines that place me at odds with the Church and it’s leaders. I had faith that the living prophets were correct and my faithful efforts were richly rewarded

There’s little chance I’ll be engaging much with you in the future because I’m not interested in participating discussions that seem to inevitably end up being exercises in frustration.

Best wished, Ted

I just have one parting question-

How could David have fallen from his "exaltation"? One must enter into the everlasting covenant to have blessings of exaltation. He was entered into his exaltation, then he murdered and fell from that covenant.