Being Born Again

[Rob Osborn]

This topic I brought up in another thread and I want to further discuss it. I brought up that we as LDS do not really know what this means. As a Sunday School teacher years ago I was surprised to see such a widespread response. It's not a topic we discuss very often as we don't refer to ourselves so much as born again Christians, even though that's exactly what we are.

I'd like to discuss more of the details and see where people stand. As we discuss I will throw in my two cents but I first want to see how people respond to a few questions-

1. Is being born again a second birth, and if so when was the first?

2. Does being born again happen immediately or over a long period of time or somewhere in between?

3. What does it mean to be born again? Does this mean a person not spiritually reborn is dead? And dead in what way?

4. If we are born again what do we inherit?

5. What does it mean if we fail to be born again?

[SpiritDragon]

2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

This topic I brought up in another thread and I want to further discuss it. I brought up that we as LDS do not really know what this means. As a Sunday School teacher years ago I was surprised to see such a widespread response. It's not a topic we discuss very often as we don't refer to ourselves so much as born again Christians, even though that's exactly what we are.

I'd like to discuss more of the details and see where people stand. As we discuss I will throw in my two cents but I first want to see how people respond to a few questions-

1. Is being born again a second birth, and if so when was the first?

Yes and no. Being born again is not a second birth in the physical sense as Jesus explained to Nicodemus it refers to a change of heart leading to repentance and baptism. Repentance  is said to refer to literally turning our hearts to God. Through the process of repentance we put off the natural man and are born of God. King Benjamin does a fine job of teaching this:

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Mosiah 3:19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.

20 And moreover, I say unto you, that the time shall come when the knowledge of a Savior shall spread throughout every nation, kindred, tongue, and people.

21 And behold, when that time cometh, none shall be found blameless before God, except it be little children, only through repentance and faith on the name of the Lord God Omnipotent.

He later asked his people to find out how his teachings were received and learned that they were indeed reborn as followers of Christ:

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Mosiah 5:2 And they all cried with one voice, saying: Yea, we believe all the words which thou hast spoken unto us; and also, we know of their surety and truth, because of the Spirit of the Lord Omnipotent, which has wrought a mighty change in us, or in our hearts, that we have no more disposition to do evil, but to do good continually.

The first birth is our birth into mortality in a fallen state as the natural man, even though children are innocent until the age of accountability.

2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

2. Does being born again happen immediately or over a long period of time or somewhere in between?

Being born again is symbolic of conversion. Conversion is progressive, but also has a tipping point that leads to the waters of baptism and a life of faith or at least acts of faith. Baptism is symbolic of being born again. A symbolic commitment and covenant of rebirth is made at baptism and renewed weekly partaking of the Sacrament. Conversion happens much like Alma's analogy to testing faith like a seed. It grows as it's nourished. It could be said that the baptism is THE rebirth event and everything after is akin to a child growing in understanding. But the analogy could also be used to describe starting fresh every day doing your best to be Christ-like and honouring covenants with a true hope that Christ has paid the price of sin and death.

2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

3. What does it mean to be born again? Does this mean a person not spiritually reborn is dead? And dead in what way?

It means to be converted. 

2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

4. If we are born again what do we inherit?

If ye are not born again, ye cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven, Alma 7:14.

Ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, Moses 6:59.

The kingdom of heaven!

2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

5. What does it mean if we fail to be born again?

As noted above, not being born again precludes inheritance in the kingdom of heaven. We need to be converted, hence the new curriculum is strictly pointing out that conversion is the goal and not simply obedience to daily scripture study. Studying is a means to an end. The end is for the spirit to work in us and bring about conversion.

[Rob Osborn]

12 minutes ago, SpiritDragon said:

Yes and no. Being born again is not a second birth in the physical sense as Jesus explained to Nicodemus it refers to a change of heart leading to repentance and baptism. Repentance  is said to refer to literally turning our hearts to God. Through the process of repentance we put off the natural man and are born of God. King Benjamin does a fine job of teaching this:

He later asked his people to find out how his teachings were received and learned that they were indeed reborn as followers of Christ:

The first birth is our birth into mortality in a fallen state as the natural man, even though children are innocent until the age of accountability.

Being born again is symbolic of conversion. Conversion is progressive, but also has a tipping point that leads to the waters of baptism and a life of faith or at least acts of faith. Baptism is symbolic of being born again. A symbolic commitment and covenant of rebirth is made at baptism and renewed weekly partaking of the Sacrament. Conversion happens much like Alma's analogy to testing faith like a seed. It grows as it's nourished. It could be said that the baptism is THE rebirth event and everything after is akin to a child growing in understanding. But the analogy could also be used to describe starting fresh every day doing your best to be Christ-like and honouring covenants with a true hope that Christ has paid the price of sin and death.

It means to be converted. 

If ye are not born again, ye cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven, Alma 7:14.

Ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, Moses 6:59.

The kingdom of heaven!

As noted above, not being born again precludes inheritance in the kingdom of heaven. We need to be converted, hence the new curriculum is strictly pointing out that conversion is the goal and not simply obedience to daily scripture study. Studying is a means to an end. The end is for the spirit to work in us and bring about conversion.

All good insights. I like how you use the Book of Mormon. Well done. I may add one question- How is this verse related to being reborn? What is he dead to?

1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins. (Ephesians 2:1)

[SpiritDragon]

53 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

All good insights. I like how you use the Book of Mormon. Well done. I may add one question- How is this verse related to being reborn? What is he dead to?

1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins. (Ephesians 2:1)

I may need to look into the context better at some point in case there is more to it that I'm not addressing. However, my cursory analysis would be to state that Christ has overcome sin and death. In doing so He has bridged the gulf between us caused by our carnal nature. As the second article of faith states we are not guilty because of our first parents mistakes, and as such children are innocent, but we all severally and invariably transgress the laws once we reach the age of accountability. Sin separates us from God and disqualifies us from entrance into His kingdom. Only as we are are cleansed through the atoning blood of Christ can we gain entrance into everlasting life. I realize you have a different take on the degrees of glory than I do, so will likely disagree with what this all means in the eternities. From my perspective living in the lesser kindgoms still represents a form of separation from God and therefore still represents a death of sorts or certainly a damnation meaning a stopping of progression. Only those in the Celestial kingdom will have true eternal life in the sense of not being separated from god in the least degree.

[Rob Osborn]

36 minutes ago, SpiritDragon said:

From my perspective living in the lesser kindgoms still represents a form of separation from God and therefore still represents a death of sorts or certainly a damnation meaning a stopping of progression.

Are these people born again?

[wenglund]

5 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

1. Is being born again a second birth, and if so when was the first?

It is also a third and fourth and perhaps even a fifth birth. The first birth was in the pre-existence, when our intelligences were clothed in spirit bodies and we became the sons and daughters of God.

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2. Does being born again happen immediately or over a long period of time or somewhere in between?

Yes to each.

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3. What does it mean to be born again? Does this mean a person not spiritually reborn is dead? And dead in what way?

To me, the term is self-explanatory. Those who are not reborn don't become unborn, though those who are reborn must, of necessity, pass through a form of death.

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4. If we are born again what do we inherit?

It depends upon which rebirth you are talking about.

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5. What does it mean if we fail to be born again?

It means that you have been born, but not again.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited January 1, 2019 by wenglund

[Rob Osborn]

13 minutes ago, wenglund said:

To me, the term is self-explanatory. Those who are not reborn don't become unborn, though those who are reborn must, of necessity, pass through a form of death.

What do you mean by pass through a form of death?

 

15 minutes ago, wenglund said:

It depends upon which rebirth you are talking about.

I'm talking about being born again, in the spirit.

[wenglund]

1 minute ago, Rob Osborn said:

What do you mean by pass through a form of death?

When a spirit personage is reborn into mortality they experience a form of death that is the Fall. When a mortal is born again through baptism, their old life of sin dies. To be born again through the resurrection one must die physically.

1 minute ago, Rob Osborn said:

I'm talking about being born again, in the spirit.

Each rebirth I mentioned above is in the spirit.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Rob Osborn]

12 minutes ago, wenglund said:

When a spirit personage is reborn into mortality they experience a form of death that is the Fall. When a mortal is born again through baptism, their old life of sin dies. To be born again through the resurrection one must die physically.

Each rebirth I mentioned above is in the spirit.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I'm a bit confused. How is a person reborn into mortality? Perhaps you meant to say "born into mortality"? I will agree that spiritual death is tied to sin. I believe that though a person born into mortality is in a state of death so to speak, they are still alive in Spirit to righteousness. As they become accountable they slumber into spiritual death. It's at that point they need a spiritual rebirth.

Edited January 1, 2019 by Rob Osborn

[mikbone]

D&C 132:20-25

The use of the terms Lives and Deaths in these verses may have relevance.

[wenglund]

9 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

I'm a bit confused. How is a person reborn into mortality? 

Since each of our spirits were first born in the pre-existence, then when our spirits are  born into mortality that becomes our second birth or rebirth or being born again.

.Another way to look at this is by considering that each birth is rationally made possible by a father and mother. Our first birth (as spirit personages) is made possible by our Heavenly Father and Mother. Our second birth (into mortality) came by Christ the Creator and our mortal fathers and mothers. Our third birth (baptism of water and Spirit) ) is made possible by Christ the bridegroom and his bride the Church.  Our fourth birth (the resurrection) is made possible by the first fruit and father Christ and mother Church (the patriarchal priesthood).

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Rob Osborn]

48 minutes ago, wenglund said:

Since each of our spirits were first born in the pre-existence, then when our spirits are  born into mortality that becomes our second birth or rebirth or being born again.

.Another way to look at this is by considering that each birth is rationally made possible by a father and mother. Our first birth (as spirit personages) is made possible by our Heavenly Father and Mother. Our second birth (into mortality) came by Christ the Creator and our mortal fathers and mothers. Our third birth (baptism of water and Spirit) ) is made possible by Christ the bridegroom and his bride the Church.  Our fourth birth (the resurrection) is made possible by the first fruit and father Christ and mother Church (the patriarchal priesthood).

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Hum..I don't agree. In the sense of being "born again" as spoken in scripture it refers to our being born again unto righteousness. As sinners, people are "dead in tresspass and sin". They thus need to be born again unto righteousness. As far as I can tell, we come into mortality already alive in Christ and thus alive in the spirit and we need no rebirth at that point.

[wenglund]

2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Hum..I don't agree. 

Okay. Not everyone is ready as yet to receive further light and knowledge, and may get hung up on terminology.

While it is true that the phrase "born again" occurs explicitly about five times in the scriptures,  and this only in relation to baptism and growth in the gospel, reason strongly suggest that the other instances of rebirth, that I noted, are implicitly suggested in a number of scriptures--particularly those that refer to members of the Godhead as "Father."

And, by recognizing the layered meaning of many scriptures, one may come to understand that reference to one birth or rebirth is a type and shadow and metaphor for the other births.

But, to each their own.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, wenglund said:

Okay. Not everyone is ready as yet to receive further light and knowledge, and may get hung up on terminology.

While it is true that the phrase "born again" occurs explicitly about five times in the scriptures,  and this only in relation to baptism and growth in the gospel, reason strongly suggest that the other instances of rebirth, that I noted, are implicitly suggested in a number of scriptures--particularly those that refer to members of the Godhead as "Father."

And, by recognizing the layered meaning of many scriptures, one may come to understand that reference to one birth or rebirth is a type and shadow and metaphor for the other births.

But, to each their own.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

There are lots of instances in scripture speaking about being born again. In reference to the plan of salvation, it only speaks of being spiritually reborn one time once one turns to God. I'm not aware of other scripture references you may know of.

Edited January 1, 2019 by Rob Osborn

[Traveler]

It has been my experience that being born again is a lot like being humble.  Very often those that brag the most about knowing all the pertinent doctrinal details seem to struggle the most with being the best example.

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

22 minutes ago, Traveler said:

It has been my experience that being born again is a lot like being humble.  Very often those that brag the most about knowing all the pertinent doctrinal details seem to struggle the most with being the best example.

 

The Traveler

It's been my experience that people claim to know much more than they think they know at the expense of making others look bad and when pressed upon close inspection they try to derail or avoid the point. Complacency seems comfortable.

Edited January 2, 2019 by Rob Osborn