Wheat and Tares and Other Gospel Verses

[Anddenex]

11 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Here is the quote-

"To put this issue in context, may I remind all of us that we live in a fallen world and for now we are a fallen people. We are in the telestial kingdom; that is spelled with a t, not a c."  https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2017/10/be-ye-therefore-perfect-eventually?lang=eng

And BTW, as said in scripture, one of the groups in the telestial kingdoms-

103 These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.

It doesn't say they "were" but rather "are" meaning they are still that distinction. How is it that there are liars and whoremongers in heaven?

He is correct, but what he is saying doesn't support your interpretation. Elder Holland also has said we are in a "telestial world," and as the quotes above telestial sphere and telestial environment. Nothing supports what you have suggested. What else, what other quotes that actually witness what you are specifying? I have provided you with many.

[Traveler]

19 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Failing the second estate puts one in the same place as those who failed their first. That place is hell with the devil and his angels.

Not true - Those that kept the first estate will be resurrected following the completion of their second estate and will have an immortal physical body in the image and likeness of G-d for eternity.  The physical death (which is also called Hell) is overcome and they will have a very different status and "place" in eternity than the devil and his angles.  It is not the same - not even close to the same.

 

The Traveler

Edited January 16, 2019 by Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, Anddenex said:

He is correct, but what he is saying doesn't support your interpretation. Elder Holland also has said we are in a "telestial world," and as the quotes above telestial sphere and telestial environment. Nothing supports what you have suggested. What else, what other quotes that actually witness what you are specifying? I have provided you with many.

He said we are in the telestial kingdom. He meant exactly that.

[Rob Osborn]

38 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Not true - Those that kept the first estate will be resurrected following the completion of their second estate and will have an immortal physical body in the image and likeness of G-d for eternity.  The physical death (which is also called Hell) is overcome and they will have a very different status and "place" in eternity than the devil and his angles.  It is not the same - not even close to the same.

 

The Traveler

Those that don't keep their second estate will indeed be resurrected but then they will be cast into outer darkness with the devil and his angels. Thus, they will be in the same place.

[Traveler]

12 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

What is "doctrinal truth"?

I believe this question is flawed.  There is in mortality no such thing as doctrinal truth nor can there be.

There seems to be a misunderstanding between "True Doctrine" and "False Doctrine" without any regard for incompleteness.  A change in doctrine does not imply any false doctrine - on the contrary.  We are given doctrine "line upon line upon line" and "precept upon precept upon precept".  Thus if a person is pursuing truth there will be an evolution of understanding.  Not an arrival.  Thus true doctrine is always changing.  Changing doctrine is not of it self false.  

Because of evolving doctrine (among other things) - Jesus forbid that doctrine should be used to determine discipleship.   So the thinking or teaching that "true" doctrine equals "true" discipleship - is not just incomplete but a false devolving notion.

 

The Traveler

[Anddenex]

7 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

He said we are in the telestial kingdom. He meant exactly that.

Thank you. This still doesn't answer the question, nor does it provide any additional witness you have said it does. Here is another quote from Elder Holland:

Quote

When Adam and Eve willingly stepped into mortality, they knew this telestial world would contain thorns and thistles and troubles of every kind. Elder Jeffrey R. Holland

He also meant "exactly" what he said here (above quote). And these individuals meant what they said here (as previously quoted):

Quote

 

It is true that scriptures foretell the final days of the earth’s temporal existence as a telestial sphere. The earth will then be renewed and receive its paradisiacal, or terrestrial, glory. (See A of F 1:10.) Ultimately, the earth will become celestialized. (See Rev. 21:1; D&C 77:1; D&C 88:25–26.) But its last days must be preceded by its latter days! Russell M. Nelson (emphasis mine)

We must remember this world is a telestial environment. Our children grow up in this environment. (emphasis mine - Ezra Taft Benson)

 

And all these (Elder Holland, President Nelson, Ezra Taft Benson) agree that people receive "Telestial" kingdom/glory "AFTER" final judgement. We have not entered our final judgement.

Nothing is aligning with your interpretation, and you aren't providing any further witness. The "mouth" here in this case is one witness, not two or three. I am still waiting brother.

[Rob Osborn]

19 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I believe this question is flawed.  There is in mortality no such thing as doctrinal truth nor can there be.

There seems to be a misunderstanding between "True Doctrine" and "False Doctrine" without any regard for incompleteness.  A change in doctrine does not imply any false doctrine - on the contrary.  We are given doctrine "line upon line upon line" and "precept upon precept upon precept".  Thus if a person is pursuing truth there will be an evolution of understanding.  Not an arrival.  Thus true doctrine is always changing.  Changing doctrine is not of it self false.  

Because of evolving doctrine (among other things) - Jesus forbid that doctrine should be used to determine discipleship.   So the thinking or teaching that "true" doctrine equals "true" discipleship - is not just incomplete but a false devolving notion.

 

The Traveler

Who said anything about true discipleship? Your on your own there

[Traveler]

23 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Those that don't keep their second estate will indeed be resurrected but then they will be cast into outer darkness with the devil and his angels. Thus, they will be in the same place.

If you are implying that same place = same status; Then you are wrong and mistaken.  I am also concerned with what you may be thinking that "keep their second estate" means.  The term is quite vague and can create as much or even more confusion than what may be labeled as "false doctrine".

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

25 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Who said anything about true discipleship? Your on your own there

There is no reason to worry or have any concern what-so-ever about doctrine if one is not a true disciple.    And if one is a true disciple of Christ - doctrine is not the important issue - especially concerning our second estate.  So to be blunt - why is "true" doctrine such an important issue to you?

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, Anddenex said:

Thank you. This still doesn't answer the question, nor does it provide any additional witness you have said it does. Here is another quote from Elder Holland:

He also meant "exactly" what he said here (above quote). And these individuals meant what they said here (as previously quoted):

And all these (Elder Holland, President Nelson, Ezra Taft Benson) agree that people receive "Telestial" kingdom/glory "AFTER" final judgement. We have not entered our final judgement.

Nothing is aligning with your interpretation, and you aren't providing any further witness. The "mouth" here in this case is one witness, not two or three. I am still waiting brother.

You seem to keep skating around the reality that this earth is the telestial kingdom. Did Elder Holland not really mean we are now in thee telestial kingdom?

[Rob Osborn]

34 minutes ago, Traveler said:

There is no reason to worry or have any concern what-so-ever about doctrine if one is not a true disciple.    And if one is a true disciple of Christ - doctrine is not the important issue - especially concerning our second estate.  So to be blunt - why is "true" doctrine such an important issue to you?

 

The Traveler

It was brought up earlier about doctrine and truth. I was making an important clarification regarding doctrine and truth. All doctrine isnt truth. There are and have been false doctrines in our church. 

[Anddenex]

20 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

You seem to keep skating around the reality that this earth is the telestial kingdom. Did Elder Holland not really mean we are now in thee telestial kingdom?

Not really, unless of course you didn't actually read my other posts, but I will quote again what I said previously, "I believe there are many Saints that recognize the symbolism of this being the Telestial Kingdom, it makes perfect sense in light of modern revelation. I will though provide you once again with quotes from General Conference that contradict the dichotomy you present as truth."

You going to address Elder Hollands statement regarding this earth as a Telestial world, do you think Elder Holland did not really mean this is a telestial world? Do you think Russell M. Nelson meant what he meant when he called this earth a telestial sphere? Do you think Ezra Taft Benson meant what he meant when he called this earth a telestial environment?

But you appear to be skating around all the other quotes mentioned that directly contradict your interpretation. You going to take the opportunity to address each quote, or just keep with one quote and a misrepresentation of that quote?

Edited January 16, 2019 by Anddenex

[Rob Osborn]

8 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

Not really, unless of course you didn't actually read my other posts, but I will quote again what I said previously, "I believe there are many Saints that recognize the symbolism of this being the Telestial Kingdom, it makes perfect sense in light of modern revelation. I will though provide you once again with quotes from General Conference that contradict the dichotomy you present as truth."

You going to address Elder Hollands statement regarding this world as a Telestial world, or skate that?

But you appear to be skating around all the other quotes mentioned that directly contradict your interpretation. You going to take the opportunity to address each quote, or just keep with one quote and a misrepresentation of that quote?

The "telestial world" and "telestial kingdom" are the same thing as near as I can tell. Both the endowment uses this language interchangeably and section 76 uses this same language interchangeably. Here is from section 76-

109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;

 

[Anddenex]

2 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

The "telestial world" and "telestial kingdom" are the same thing as near as I can tell. Both the endowment uses this language interchangeably and section 76 uses this same language interchangeably. Here is from section 76-

109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;

 

Thank you, you still have Ezra Taft Benson and Russell M. Nelson, and all the others -- please keep going.

Remember Doctrine and Covenants 76 is referring to "after" the resurrection, so please keep going.

We can see vs. 72, "Behold, these are they who died without law" Those of a telestial world (vs. 71). We are now dead in this Telestial Kingdom, this earth we now live in?

That's odd, I feel very much alive. More contradictions from your interpretation and belief.

Edited January 16, 2019 by Anddenex

[Rob Osborn]

8 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

Thank you, you still have Ezra Taft Benson and Russell M. Nelson, and all the others -- please keep going.

So, unless all the prophets and apostles agree on the same exact wording its not correct eh? You must think Elder Holland is teaching false doctrine.

[Anddenex]

5 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

So, unless all the prophets and apostles agree on the same exact wording its not correct eh? You must think Elder Holland is teaching false doctrine.

This is an excellent example of twisting words. No where have I said, nor did I say all of them have to agree, please let's not turn this into putting words into someone's mouth. Nope, Elder Holland is teaching correct doctrine, just not the interpretation you are applying to it. I believe you are teaching false doctrine.

I am not sure why this statement is hard to grasp. It is not Elder Holland's statement that is in question, it is the interpretation you are advancing that is in question.

[Rob Osborn]

12 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

Thank you, you still have Ezra Taft Benson and Russell M. Nelson, and all the others -- please keep going.

Remember Doctrine and Covenants 76 is referring to "after" the resurrection, so please keep going.

We can see vs. 72, "Behold, these are they who died without law" Those of a telestial world (vs. 71). We are now dead in this Telestial Kingdom, this earth we now live in?

That's odd, I feel very much alive. More contradictions from your interpretation and belief.

We have no reference that section 76, in speaking of the telestial and terrestrial is after resurrection and judgment. Your reference to verse 71, 72 is dealing with the terrestrial. They are in the terrestrial because they died in the telestial without law and will then go to the terrestrial.

Please explain why there are whoremongers and sorcerers (vs. 103) in heaven. They are supposed to be in the second death which only comes after resurrection and judgment.

[Rob Osborn]

5 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

This is an excellent example of twisting words. No where have I said, nor did I say all of them have to agree, please let's not turn this into putting words into someone's mouth. Nope, Elder Holland is teaching correct doctrine, just not the interpretation you are applying to it. I believe you are teaching false doctrine.

I am not sure why this statement is hard to grasp. It is not Elder Holland's statement that is in question, it is the interpretation you are advancing that is in question.

You are pressing a point about Elder Holland and I am questioning you. You seem to be twisting Elder Hollands beliefs into something he didnt mean.

[Rob Osborn]

I think the onus is on you to show that in Elder Hollands talk he meant something different than  us now living in "the telestisl kingdom". I myself took it as literal, that we really are now living in the telestial kingdom.

[Anddenex]

2 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

We have no reference that section 76, in speaking of the telestial and terrestrial is after resurrection and judgment. Your reference to verse 71, 72 is dealing with the terrestrial. They are in the terrestrial because they died in the telestial without law and will then go to the terrestrial.

Please explain why there are whoremongers and sorcerers (vs. 103) in heaven. They are supposed to be in the second death which only comes after resurrection and judgment.

Except when it says, "Behold, these are they who died without law." I am pretty sure "died" without law refers to after this life.  And the following information we have access to:

1) The lowest of the three degrees of glory in which people will dwell after the Final Judgment. (I am pretty sure Final Judgement is the key phrase here)

2) These are they who shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work.

3) These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial;

4) Through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, all people will be resurrected. After we are resurrected, we will stand before the Lord to be judged according to our desires and actions. Each of us will accordingly receive an eternal dwelling place in a specific kingdom of glory. The Lord taught this principle when He said, “In my Father’s house are many mansions” (John 14:2).

5) There are three kingdoms of glory: the celestial kingdom, the terrestrial kingdom, and the telestial kingdom. The glory we inherit will depend on the depth of our conversion, expressed by our obedience to the Lord’s commandments. It will depend on the manner in which we have “received the testimony of Jesus” (D&C 76:51; see also D&C 76:74, 79, 101).

6) In other words, th e kingdom of glory to which the Final Judgment assigns us is not determined by love but by the law that God has invoked in His plan to qualify us for eternal life, “the greatest of all the gifts of God” (D&C 14:7). Dallin H. Oaks

It doesn't need to be stated in Section 76 for it to be stated after the resurrection, but then again, I am noticing you don't want to address or talk about statements from living prophets and apostles that contradict your interpretation. OK, that is fine, and up to you.

We have discussed second death, and like this one, you present your personal interpretation. There isn't any whoremongers and sorcerers in Celestial glory, there are these individual in telestial glory. Simple truths as taught by the Lord's servants.

[Anddenex]

Ok I think I have had enough discussion here. The conclusion is that Rob is not able to provide any witness besides his own regarding his beliefs. He contradicts apostles and prophets and is not willing to address their statements, and when he does he provides the following scapegoat statement, " So, unless all the prophets and apostles agree on the same exact wording its not correct eh? You must think Elder Holland is teaching false doctrine."

Conclusion is obvious, Rob you are teaching false doctrine and the doctrine is your own.

[The Folk Prophet]

1 minute ago, Anddenex said:

Ok I think I have had enough discussion here.

Took you long enough.

[Anddenex]

1 minute ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Took you long enough.

I have never actually entered this topic with him. I have entered others. I wanted to provide a full measure of dialogue where he presented his theory/belief, and then provide contrast. As he isn't willing to address what others have said, the discussion is not able to continue. As he isn't able to provide any other witness to his belief, the topic thus ends also.

 

[Rob Osborn]

11 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

Except when it says, "Behold, these are they who died without law." I am pretty sure "died" without law refers to after this life.  And the following information we have access to:

1) The lowest of the three degrees of glory in which people will dwell after the Final Judgment. (I am pretty sure Final Judgement is the key phrase here)

2) These are they who shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work.

3) These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial;

4) Through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, all people will be resurrected. After we are resurrected, we will stand before the Lord to be judged according to our desires and actions. Each of us will accordingly receive an eternal dwelling place in a specific kingdom of glory. The Lord taught this principle when He said, “In my Father’s house are many mansions” (John 14:2).

5) There are three kingdoms of glory: the celestial kingdom, the terrestrial kingdom, and the telestial kingdom. The glory we inherit will depend on the depth of our conversion, expressed by our obedience to the Lord’s commandments. It will depend on the manner in which we have “received the testimony of Jesus” (D&C 76:51; see also D&C 76:74, 79, 101).

6) In other words, th e kingdom of glory to which the Final Judgment assigns us is not determined by love but by the law that God has invoked in His plan to qualify us for eternal life, “the greatest of all the gifts of God” (D&C 14:7). Dallin H. Oaks

It doesn't need to be stated in Section 76 for it to be stated after the resurrection, but then again, I am noticing you don't want to address or talk about statements from living prophets and apostles that contradict your interpretation. OK, that is fine, and up to you.

We have discussed second death, and like this one, you present your personal interpretation. There isn't any whoremongers and sorcerers in Celestial glory, there are these individual in telestial glory. Simple truths as taught by the Lord's servants.

So, why are they in telestial glory when Christ cant save the unrepentant?

[Rob Osborn]

5 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

I have never actually entered this topic with him. I have entered others. I wanted to provide a full measure of dialogue where he presented his theory/belief, and then provide contrast. As he isn't willing to address what others have said, the discussion is not able to continue. As he isn't able to provide any other witness to his belief, the topic thus ends also.

 

I provide witnesses in a prophet and the temple. You cant understand that. Its fine, lets move on.