John and Paul on visiting to/from heaven

[Rob Osborn]

If we could just realize in the context of this "third heaven" that we are in the first heaven now it would make more sense.

[wenglund]

58 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

If we could just realize in the context of this "third heaven" that we are in the first heaven now it would make more sense.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Traveler]

3 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

I agree as long as we see that until we fall in mortality we aren't damned. 

Help me just a little with you thinking - what do you think is the difference from having fallen from heaven and being damned?  Isn't Satan considered to have "fallen" from heaven?

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

26 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Help me just a little with you thinking - what do you think is the difference from having fallen from heaven and being damned?  Isn't Satan considered to have "fallen" from heaven?

 

The Traveler

To be "fallen" is usually in context to our spiritual nature or being and denotes a turn towrads wickedness. Being "damned" means to be sentenced to hell.

[Jersey Boy]

6 hours ago, Traveler said:

Here is a thought for you.  We know that agency was a critical and important element of the war in heaven from which Lucifer was cast out and became Satan.   Agency implies an choice to align with something.  As we chose to become agences of Christ - through that agency; Christ is then tied by covenant to our sins.  This gives him responsibility for our sins even though he did not commit them - which means that he can justly atone for our sins and pay the redemption of sins even though he, himself committed no sin.

 

The Traveler

Because we were all imperfect, morally accountable beings in the premortal world we needed a Saviour there, just as we do here, in order to be justified and maintain a clean moral slate before God. It’s a mistaken notion to imagine that though we were imperfect in the preexistence that we never made any mistakes. The expulsion of the onetime son of the morning and his myriad of followers clearly proves that there were right and wrong choices to be made in the pre-earth life. 

In my son’s patriarchal blessing, he’s told that through heroic effort in the pre-earth life he was instrumental in persuading large numbers of the spirit sons and daughters of God, who were being persuaded to follow Satan, to sincerely repent and accept the Father’s plan of salvation. If true, this means some who ultimately accepted the Father’s plan had pereviously made wrong decisions that, of necessity, would have to be forgiven before they could be born into mortality without sin.

And don’t think the idea that we were imperfect enough to need forgiveness in the premortal world is a crazy idea because some of the early apostles of the restoration taught that as a natural process of spiritual growth we made mistakes in the.preexistence that required forgiveness through faith in the atonement of Christ.

Edited January 31, 2019 by Jersey Boy

[Traveler]

2 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

To be "fallen" is usually in context to our spiritual nature or being and denotes a turn towrads wickedness. Being "damned" means to be sentenced to hell.

I am of the notion that damned is a reference for someone that is going to die.  Alma suffered the pain of a damned soul and Jesus talked of degrees of damnation (Matt 23:14).  Have you considered these possibilities?

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

44 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I am of the notion that damned is a reference for someone that is going to die.  Alma suffered the pain of a damned soul and Jesus talked of degrees of damnation (Matt 23:14).  Have you considered these possibilities?

 

The Traveler

Damned/damnation is always in the context of being condemned to hell. Lesser and greater damnation refers to lesser or greater sentences to hell.

[Jersey Boy]

17 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

If we could just realize in the context of this "third heaven" that we are in the first heaven now it would make more sense.

Your incorrect ideas are based on a fundamental misunderstanding of what’s taught in the temple. I’ve been doing a lot of research on the subject of late and could easily explain to you where you went off the rails, and therefore why you’re so out of step with General Authorities past and present. But I can also see that you’re so bullheaded and in love with the idea that you’re more knowledgeable and enlightened than the leaders of the Church that no amount of inspired reasoning will convince you you’re wrong, so I won’t even bother to try. I’m guessing you espouse a political philosophy that favors a radical equality of outcome rather than in an equality of opportunity. In the meantime, here’s a recent quote from President Uchtdorf’s General Conference address of October 2015 that demonstrates, once again, you’re out of harmony with the teachings of the leaders of the Church. 

The Savior’s sacrifice opened the door of salvation for all to return to God. His “grace is sufficient for all [who] humble themselves before [God].” His grace is the enabling power that allows access into God’s kingdoms of salvation. Because of His grace, we will all be resurrected and saved in a kingdom of glory. Even the lowest kingdom of glory, the telestial kingdom, “surpasses all understanding,” and numberless people will inherit this salvation. But the Savior’s grace can do much more for us. As members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we aspire to something unimaginably greater. It is exaltation in the celestial kingdom. It is life eternal in the presence of our Father in Heaven. It is the greatest gift of God. In the celestial kingdom, we receive “of His fulness, and of His glory.” Indeed, all that the Father hath shall be given unto us."  (It Works Wonderfully, October 2015)

 

Edited February 1, 2019 by Jersey Boy

[Rob Osborn]

17 minutes ago, Jersey Boy said:

Your incorrect ideas are based on a fundamental misunderstanding of what’s taught in the temple. I’ve been doing a lot of research on the subject of late and could easily explain to you where you went off the rails, and therefore why you’re so out of step with General Authorities past and present. But I can also see that you’re so bullheaded and in love with the idea that you’re more knowledgeable and enlightened than the leaders of the Church that no amount of inspired reasoning will convince you you’re wrong, so I won’t even bother to try. I’m guessing you espouse a political philosophy that favors a radical equality of outcome rather than in equality of opportunity. In the meantime, here’s a recent quote from President Uchtdorf’s General Conference address of October 2015 that demonstrates, once again, you’re out of harmony with the teachings of the leaders of the Church. 

The Savior’s sacrifice opened the door of salvation for all to return to God. His “grace is sufficient for all [who] humble themselves before [God].” His grace is the enabling power that allows access into God’s kingdoms of salvation. Because of His grace, we will all be resurrected and saved in a kingdom of glory. Even the lowest kingdom of glory, the telestial kingdom, “surpasses all understanding,” and numberless people will inherit this salvation. But the Savior’s grace can do much more for us. As members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we aspire to something unimaginably greater. It is exaltation in the celestial kingdom. It is life eternal in the presence of our Father in Heaven. It is the greatest gift of God. In the celestial kingdom, we receive “of His fulness, and of His glory.” Indeed, all that the Father hath shall be given unto us."  (It Works Wonderfully, October 2015)

 

I'm not bullheaded. I've studied this extensively for twenty years. I've wrote countless pages and did many cross reference diagrams, charts, correlations, etc. I'm not wrong. I may come off as being bullheaded or arrogant but the matter is I have devoted a lot of time to know the truth. 

I love Elder Uchtdorf but there is some error in his statement. I don't think he quite understands the meaning of "eternal life" in scripture. Eternal life is synonymous with "salvation" and all of the saved receive eternal life. Eternal life is in the context of spiritual life or spiritual death in eternity. One either has one or the other as is stated here-

28 And now, my sons, I would that ye should look to the great Mediator, and hearken unto his great commandments; and be faithful unto his words, and choose eternal life, according to the will of his Holy Spirit;
            29 And not choose eternal death, according to the will of the flesh and the evil which is therein, which giveth the spirit of the devil power to captivate, to bring you down to hell, that he may reign over you in his own kingdom.

Those who do not receive eternal life receive the eternal death which is the second spiritual death and comes to the devil and his angels.

Edited January 31, 2019 by Rob Osborn

[Traveler]

16 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Lesser and greater damnation refers to lesser or greater sentences to hell.

In the context of your binary understanding of someone going to heaven or hell - I am left confused by your statement of lesser or greater sentences to hell?  Can you explain what different sentences of hell constitutes?

I am mostly of the notion that G-d in his compassion does not "punish" out or revenge but allows inevitable consequences to occur.  In essence, I believe that the only individuals in hell are those that by their own choice, effort and desire - with clear understanding of what their choice - choose darkness over light.  I was also led to think that you believe damnation is a permanent condition (not a temporary condition).   

May I also add some thanks for our conversation - I am enjoying discovering interesting concepts in our current and open conversation.

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

26 minutes ago, Traveler said:

In the context of your binary understanding of someone going to heaven or hell - I am left confused by your statement of lesser or greater sentences to hell?  Can you explain what different sentences of hell constitutes?

I am mostly of the notion that G-d in his compassion does not "punish" out or revenge but allows inevitable consequences to occur.  In essence, I believe that the only individuals in hell are those that by their own choice, effort and desire - with clear understanding of what their choice - choose darkness over light.  I was also led to think that you believe damnation is a permanent condition (not a temporary condition).   

May I also add some thanks for our conversation - I am enjoying discovering interesting concepts in our current and open conversation.

 

The Traveler

"Greater damnation" as found in the book of Matthew refers to a longer stint in the temporary hell and possibly even an eternal duration depending on the severity. There is always a penalty to justice so that mercy and justice is perfectly balanced out. It's part of the repentance, forgiveness and restitution process. It would be unjust if a serial rapist is sentenced to spirit prison after death for the same duration as a common thief. The serial rapist is of course going to receive the greater damnation. 

Damnation is condemnation to hell. Hell is both a temporary holding place for the wicked until they repent and accept the gospel and pay their penalty and it is also an eternal place for those who choose ultimately to follow Satan. The term "eternal damnation" is this second hell because it is eternal in duration to those who get cast out after resurrection and judgment. 

Thus, ones damnation, whether it be temporary or permanent, is dependent upon the severity of sin and ones willingness or lack thereof to accept Christ and repent and show obedience to the laws and ordinances of his gospel. So, one can be damned at death and repent and still gain eternal life. In this case their damnation is a lesser damnation. Another can utterly refuse to repent and not gain salvation and be cast out into outer darkness. In this case they receive a greater damnation.