Mind Blowing or Expanding

[Rob Osborn]

32 minutes ago, wenglund said:

Perhaps the next time you attend an endowment session at the temple, you could pay close attention to which covenants YOU make in relation to which laws. It might change how you see it.

In preparation thereof, in addition to the article I linked to above, please check out this BYU Devotional talk by Monte J. Brough, on "Between Two Gardens: the Law of Sacrifice," as well as this Ensign article by Stephen Ricks: "The Law of Sacrifice."

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Still not seeing the connection of our blood vs. Christ's. The law of sacrifice does not mandate we sacrifice our own lives. The law of sacrifice includes many things as mentioned in your link devotional but in no way is it the same as the Sacrifice Christ made. 

[wenglund]

2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Still not seeing the connection of our blood vs. Christ's. The law of sacrifice does not mandate we sacrifice our own lives. The law of sacrifice includes many things as mentioned in your link devotional but in no way is it the same as the Sacrifice Christ made. 

That is okay. Not everyone is at a point where they can understand the difference between arrested and unarrested sacrifice, and how the latter made the former possible, thus eliminating the requirement of our shedding our blood, though we be willing.

I mean, if,, in connection with a spirit-filled temple endowment experience, you carefully and thoughtfully read the three relevant articles I referenced, and still don't see it. Then you evidently aren't in a rightful position to do so. Maybe some day.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Rob Osborn]

16 minutes ago, wenglund said:

That is okay. Not everyone is at a point where they can understand the difference between arrested and unarrested sacrifice, and how the latter made the former possible, thus eliminating the requirement of our shedding our blood, though we be willing.

I mean, if,, in connection with a spirit-filled temple endowment experience, you carefully and thoughtfully read the three relevant articles I referenced, and still don't see it. Then you evidently aren't in a rightful position to do so. Maybe some day.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I just don't see how it relates the way you are prescribing. Sacrifice is a divine principle. We covenant in the temple to sacrifice all we have in building up the kingdom. It's rather simple, nothing to be confusing. The same goes for Christ sacrificing his life to save us, it's really simple and straightforward. By his death he becomes our advocate to the Father in our behalf and God can't deny the Son. In similar fashion, as we help others and sacrifice our time in helping others, we gain favor with God and in so doing he sends blessings upon us and those we ask in behalf of. I shouldn't think it should be more complicated than that.

[wenglund]

4 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

I just don't see how it relates the way you are prescribing. Sacrifice is a divine principle. We covenant in the temple to sacrifice all we have in building up the kingdom. It's rather simple, nothing to be confusing. The same goes for Christ sacrificing his life to save us, it's really simple and straightforward. By his death he becomes our advocate to the Father in our behalf and God can't deny the Son. In similar fashion, as we help others and sacrifice our time in helping others, we gain favor with God and in so doing he sends blessings upon us and those we ask in behalf of. I shouldn't think it should be more complicated than that.

Yes, that is a relatively elementary understanding of the law of sacrifice. I am speaking to a higher understanding of the law, which you continue to admit you can't see.

And, that is okay. If, or whenever you are ready,  you will see it. Until then,....

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Rob Osborn]

13 minutes ago, wenglund said:

Yes, that is a relatively elementary understanding of the law of sacrifice. I am speaking to a higher understanding of the law, which you continue to admit you can't see.

And, that is okay. If, or whenever you are ready,  you will see it. Until then,....

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

You always seem to shroud this knowledge you have to some "higher understanding". I'm not necessarily calling your bluff but rather asking for some real principle founded doctrine. Perhaps you could link a talk by a modern prophet that speaks on this matter, or perhaps a manual?

[wenglund]

3 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

You always seem to shroud this knowledge you have to some "higher understanding". I'm not necessarily calling your bluff but rather asking for some real principle founded doctrine. Perhaps you could link a talk by a modern prophet that speaks on this matter, or perhaps a manual?

Actually, I have directed you to three articles, two of which are from Church publications, each of which quote extensively from the scriptures and modern prophets/apostles, and you weren't capable of seeing it--or, as Joseph Smith less charitably phrased it, it is "beyond the narrow-minds of man."

To use the words of Christ, "Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?" (Jn 3:10-12)

You are free to consider it a "bluff" on my part, and that would be understandable given your current incapacity to understand higher things.  And, you will continue to see it that way until you become capable. Until then...

I have even been constructive enough to explain how you could exceed the self-imposed limitation of your current understanding, but to no avail. Oh well...

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited February 19, 2019 by wenglund

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, wenglund said:

Actually, I have directed you to three articles, two of which are from Church publications, each of which quote extensively from the scriptures and modern prophets/apostles, and you weren't capable of seeing it--or, as Joseph Smith less charitably phrased it, "beyond the narrow-minds of man."  

To use the words of Christ, "Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?" (Jn 3:10-12)

You are free to consider it a "bluff" on my part, and that would be understandable given your current incapacity to understand higher things.  And, you will continue to see it that way until you become capable. Until then...

I have even been constructive enough to explain how you could exceed the self-imposed limitation of your current understanding, but to no avail. Oh well...

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I read the articles. They aren't suggesting what you are putting forth. I'm not sure how you are coming to the conclusions you make because the law of sacrifice is not a mystery nor does it require a "higher understanding". I understand the law of sacrifice quite well, in fact, I think most primary children understand it quite well. It's not a mystery kept only for some elite intellect. Christ doesn't keep his paths, his ways complex and mysterious, but, men sure do have a way of making it seem complex and mysterious.

I learned something very interesting about the law of sacrifice that I'd like to share with you. A few years ago, in the process of helping some neighbors with their vehicle who were poor and destitute there came a time when the mother needed a blessing. We, as a family and business had sacrificed time, effort and money into their car. The Lord taught me a valuable yet simple principle of the law of sacrifice. Instead of asking for a blessing upon ourselves, our business and families I prayed that the blessing that may have been afforded to us be passed back to them to receive that promise in the blessing we gave that mother. The law of sacrifice is to put forth love, even if it requires some loss, or perceived loss, on our part but in doing so we gain the love and compassion required of the process. As such, asking the Father to pour out a blessing upon that head of which was sacrificed for brings the blessings upon that individual because it cannot be denied. 

The lesson was profound because in essence it is the same with Christ, he suffered and died for each one of us individually. Thus, when he asks the Father to pardon us, or give us the blessing, the Father cannot deny the Son because he cannot deny the sacrifice. And so it is with us also according to eternal principle and law- when we sacrifice for another and suffer some loss on our part and ask the blessing to fall instead upon those we sacrificed for the Father cannot deny it because to do so would be to deny the sacrifice of the broken heart and contriteness of the one asking.

[wenglund]

19 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I read the articles. They aren't suggesting what you are putting forth. I'm not sure how you are coming to the conclusions you make because the law of sacrifice is not a mystery nor does it require a "higher understanding". I understand the law of sacrifice quite well, in fact, I think most primary children understand it quite well. It's not a mystery kept only for some elite intellect. Christ doesn't keep his paths, his ways complex and mysterious, but, men sure do have a way of making it seem complex and mysterious.

I learned something very interesting about the law of sacrifice that I'd like to share with you. A few years ago, in the process of helping some neighbors with their vehicle who were poor and destitute there came a time when the mother needed a blessing. We, as a family and business had sacrificed time, effort and money into their car. The Lord taught me a valuable yet simple principle of the law of sacrifice. Instead of asking for a blessing upon ourselves, our business and families I prayed that the blessing that may have been afforded to us be passed back to them to receive that promise in the blessing we gave that mother. The law of sacrifice is to put forth love, even if it requires some loss, or perceived loss, on our part but in doing so we gain the love and compassion required of the process. As such, asking the Father to pour out a blessing upon that head of which was sacrificed for brings the blessings upon that individual because it cannot be denied. 

The lesson was profound because in essence it is the same with Christ, he suffered and died for each one of us individually. Thus, when he asks the Father to pardon us, or give us the blessing, the Father cannot deny the Son because he cannot deny the sacrifice. And so it is with us also according to eternal principle and law- when we sacrifice for another and suffer some loss on our part and ask the blessing to fall instead upon those we sacrificed for the Father cannot deny it because to do so would be to deny the sacrifice of the broken heart and contriteness of the one asking.

I deeply respect and value what you learned about the law of sacrifice.

This having been said, like some kids, you know so much about things that you are unaware of just how little you do know--even when it is pointed out to you this way and that  that you don't.  Mary Poppins said it best: "...there’s no one so hard to teach as the child who knows everything.”

If you did read the articles, you did so with your eyes wide shut, or you are seriously lacking in comprehension. Either way, we are back to the same old invariable conclusion. It is a waste of time trying to give you a hand up in light and understanding.

Bye.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

[Rob Osborn]

6 minutes ago, wenglund said:

I deeply respect and value what you learned about the law of sacrifice.

This having been said, like some kids, you know so much about things that you are unaware of just how little you do know--even when it is pointed out to you this way and that  that you don't.  Mary Poppins said it best: "...there’s no one so hard to teach as the child who knows everything.”

If you did read the articles, you did so with your eyes wide shut, or you are seriously lacking in comprehension. Either way, we are back to the same old invariable conclusion. It is a waste of time trying to give you a hand up in light and understanding.

Bye.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

I'm not sure why you choose to speak the way you do with me, whatever. Could you perhaps quote certain sentences from the articles that prove your position?

[wenglund]

Getting back to productive interactions, I found on another thread where @mikbone brought up the biblical symbol of salt. In the context of that thread, salt was considered from the standpoint of its taste (savor).

However, while researching that topic, I discovered that there are a number of other biblical uses for salt, and thus layers of symbolic meaning.

According to Wikipedia, "The role of salt in the Bible is relevant to understanding Hebrew society during the Old Testament and New Testament periods. Salt is a necessity of life and was a mineral that was used since ancient times in many cultures as a seasoning, a preservative, a disinfectant, a component of ceremonial offerings, and as a unit of exchange. The Bible contains numerous references to salt. In various contexts, it is used metaphorically to signify permanence, loyalty, durability, fidelity, usefulness,value, and purification."

The Easton Bible Dictionary has similar things to say, and adds: "A "covenant of salt" ( Numbers 18:19 ; 2 Chr 13:5 ) was a covenant of perpetual obligation. New-born children were rubbed with salt ( Ezekiel 16:4 ). Disciples are likened unto salt, with reference to its cleansing and preserving uses ( Matthew 5:13 ). When Abimelech took the city of Shechem, he sowed the place with salt, that it might always remain a barren soil ( Judges 9:45 ). "

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

27 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I'm not sure why you choose to speak the way you do with me, whatever. Could you perhaps quote certain sentences from the articles that prove your position?

Your inability to understand why, is part of the reason that the only intelligent thing to do at this point is to say, "bye,! and avoid the bait to inevitably wasting more time.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

11 minutes ago, wenglund said:

Getting back to productive interactions, I found on another thread where @mikbone brought up the biblical symbol of salt. In the context of that thread, salt was considered from the standpoint of its taste (savor).

However, while researching that topic, I discovered that there are a number of other biblical uses for salt, and thus layers of symbolic meaning.

According to Wikipedia, "The role of salt in the Bible is relevant to understanding Hebrew society during the Old Testament and New Testament periods. Salt is a necessity of life and was a mineral that was used since ancient times in many cultures as a seasoning, a preservative, a disinfectant, a component of ceremonial offerings, and as a unit of exchange. The Bible contains numerous references to salt. In various contexts, it is used metaphorically to signify permanence, loyalty, durability, fidelity, usefulness,value, and purification."

The Easton Bible Dictionary has similar things to say, and adds: "A "covenant of salt" ( Numbers 18:19 ; 2 Chr 13:5 ) was a covenant of perpetual obligation. New-born children were rubbed with salt ( Ezekiel 16:4 ). Disciples are likened unto salt, with reference to its cleansing and preserving uses ( Matthew 5:13 ). When Abimelech took the city of Shechem, he sowed the place with salt, that it might always remain a barren soil ( Judges 9:45 ). "

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

There are 55 scriptures in our canon where the word "salt" appears. (see HERE)

One that I find most interesting comes at the end of a poetic treatise on heaven and hell, and states: "For everyone shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice salted with salt." (Mk 9:49--bold mine)

This is followed by the familiar passage: "Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith shall ye season it?" (vs 50)

The next sentence reads: "Have salt in yourself, and have peace one with another." (ibid)

In these two verses there appears to be at least four different symbolic meanings for salt. Fascinating.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Rob Osborn]

6 hours ago, wenglund said:

Your inability to understand why, is part of the reason that the only intelligent thing to do at this point is to say, "bye,! and avoid the bait to inevitably wasting more time.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I am of the strong belief that you can't provide what I ask for. That's fine, good day.

[Anddenex]

On 2/17/2019 at 10:19 PM, wenglund said:

I would be interested to read the six principles if appropriate (I mention this because I understand that some things may be too sacred to share in a public forum).

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

As of right now I only remember two of the six. I would have to go back to one of my journals to find the other symbolic meanings the Lord shared with me. Some of the meanings were very simple, nothing profound.

The Rod of Iron is symbolic of the word of God, and eternal life (john 17:3), or the act of becoming. Eternal life is to know God and to know his Son, Jesus Christ. So partaking of the fruit is when we learn knowledge of God -- who He is -- as a result of taking hold upon the rod. Thus the difference also between the type of people shared in the Book of Mormon, particularly the two groups that made it to the tree and partook of the fruit. Eternal life is becoming, which highlights those who partook and were ashamed were not becoming, they were only gaining knowledge of. They weren't truly converted.

The other is what I have shared previously the cyclic cycle of conversion, again a focus on becoming rather than a one time event.

1) Lehi was in darkness

2) Lehi prayed for mercy

3) Lehi beckoned for others (family)

4) The Rod of Iron (I find it interesting with Lehi there was no rod when he partook of the tree), which symbolizes prophets give the word of God.

5) We either hold fast or cling to the rod (personal desire and decisions)

6) We learn -- partake of the fruit (Repentance) -- becoming

7) Revert back to #1 and the process of becoming, eternal life, starts over and over again in our lives. This is why I love the following verses of scirpture: Abraham 1:2, Moses 6:60, Helaman 3:35, and now even more so than before since the highlight reading of "the word" Alma 32:28 - end of seed analogy.

People who cling, they forget when the mist of darkness or a finger of scorn comes, to bow the knee and pray for mercy (or they pray but give up because this mist or finger of scorn is a stronger fiery furnace toward perfection -- becoming like God). It then can become a competition of wills as we see with members today. Their personal belief and desires prevent them from laying hold, holding fast to the rod in order to once again partake of the fruit -- repentance and/or additional knowledge.

Edited February 19, 2019 by Anddenex

[mikbone]

Moses 1: 10 And it came to pass that it was for the space of many hours before Moses did again receive his natural strength like unto man; and he said unto himself: Now, for this cause I know that man is nothing, which thing I never had supposed.

 

Ether 3: 8 And he saith unto the Lord: I saw the finger of the Lord, and I feared lest he should smite me; for I knew not that the Lord had flesh and blood.

 

“Joseph sat firmly and calmly all the time in the midst of a magnificent glory, but Sidney sat limp and pale, apparently as limber as a rag, observing which, Joseph remarked, smilingly, ‘Sidney is not used to it as I am’” (in “Recollections of the Prophet Joseph Smith,” Juvenile Instructor, May 1892, 303–4).

 

I suspect that the Brother of Jared was also was exposed to Satan prior his revelation, but for some reason we don’t have that information.

 

Its also interesting that Moses’s mind was blown and Mahonri feared for his life but Joseph Smith either did not record his emotional reaction, or he was not as affected because of his youth and innocence.

[wenglund]

1 hour ago, mikbone said:

Moses 1: 10 And it came to pass that it was for the space of many hours before Moses did again receive his natural strength like unto man; and he said unto himself: Now, for this cause I know that man is nothing, which thing I never had supposed.

 

Ether 3: 8 And he saith unto the Lord: I saw the finger of the Lord, and I feared lest he should smite me; for I knew not that the Lord had flesh and blood.

 

“Joseph sat firmly and calmly all the time in the midst of a magnificent glory, but Sidney sat limp and pale, apparently as limber as a rag, observing which, Joseph remarked, smilingly, ‘Sidney is not used to it as I am’” (in “Recollections of the Prophet Joseph Smith,” Juvenile Instructor, May 1892, 303–4).

 

I suspect that the Brother of Jared was also was exposed to Satan prior his revelation, but for some reason we don’t have that information.

 

Its also interesting that Moses’s mind was blown and Mahonri feared for his life but Joseph Smith either did not record his emotional reaction, or he was not as affected because of his youth and innocence.

Interesting.

I don't recall Joseph mentioning a vision he had where, as with Moses, he was shown the "world and the ends thereof." However, he did suggest something along the lines that if mankind could see such things, particularly the afterlife, they would kill themselves to get there--which suggest to me that he had a good sense of the mind blowing power of such an experience.

Indeed, the fact that Joseph understood Oliver's condition, and hinted at why he wasn't then experiencing the same,  also suggest to me that Joseph, too, had previously undergone that same condition.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[mikbone]

1 hour ago, wenglund said:

Interesting.

I don't recall Joseph mentioning a vision he had where, as with Moses, he was shown the "world and the ends thereof." However, he did suggest something along the lines that if mankind could see such things, particularly the afterlife, they would kill themselves to get there--which suggest to me that he had a good sense of the mind blowing power of such an experience.

Indeed, the fact that Joseph understood Oliver's condition, and hinted at why he wasn't then experiencing the same,  also suggest to me that Joseph, too, had previously undergone that same condition.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I don’t think it was the vision that blew Moses’ mind or made the brother of Jared fear for his life.  I think that it was just the experience of being in the presence and glory of the Lord.

Yeah, Sydney Rifdon was wrecked.

[Alemmedial]

On 2/15/2019 at 12:07 PM, wenglund said:

I just came across, or rather had opened to my understanding,  a new favorite symbolism-rich passage.  Actually, it is the first part of the Gospels--particularly John, which covers the narrative of Jesus' time in mortality from his birth to his interaction with the Samaritan woman at Jacob's well.  (I had initially intended to post this on the Come Follow Me study forum, but it doesn't fit a given lesson as structured on that forum, so I figured it would be appropriate posting it here.)

In addition to the multi-layers of symbolism for each of the individual events reported during the aforementioned time frame, it occurred to me that they, together, subtly teach sequentially, the Plan of Progression. Here is how--at least as I have come to see it:

The period from Christ's birth to his baptism represents the pre-existence, where

• Jesus' birth symbolizes the birth of all of us as spirit children of the Father,
• Jesus' teaching in the temple symbolizes the Heavenly Council where the Son goes about his Father's business and presents his Father's plan, 
• Jesus growing in knowledge and  stature and favor with God prior to his mortal mission, symbolizes our growth as pre-mortal spirits preparatory for entering our own mortal missions , where we are enabled to  continued in growth  and so forth.
• John's preparatory work and Jesus' baptism symbolize the creation--baptism is the means of bringing about a new creature or creation.

The period following Christ's baptism to the conversation at the well, represent mortality and the application of the Gospel on earth, where:

• Jesus' journey into the wilderness to be tempted, is symbolic of each of us leaving heaven and descending to fallen earth, there to enter mortality and be tested.
• Jesus' first public miracle of turning water to wine symbolizes the need for those of us who sin during mortality to undergo a transformation (from the old man of sin to the new man of righteousness), or in other words, it symbolizes the first principle of the Gospel--i.e. faith, in he who has the saving power to transform us.
• Jesus clearing the temple symbolizes our repentance,  where sin is driven out and the temple of our bodies are made again a place for the Father, through His Spirit, to dwell,  and where the ordinances of salvation may again be rightly performed.
• Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus symbolizes our being "born again" through baptism.
• Jesus' conversation with the woman at the well symbolizes our receiving the  living waters of the Holy Ghost

The period from the clearing of the temple to the women at the well, also represents the afterlife and immortality, where:

• Jesus' clearing of the temple symbolizes death, where the corruptible body is "driven out" or separated from the temple of the spirit body.
• Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus symbolizes the resurrection, where the spirits of men are born again into glorified and eternal bodies.
• and finally, Jesus' conversation with the woman at the well is symbolic of the living water of eternal life,.

Granted, it is possible that I may be reading too much into this. But, I don't think so. It seems to all fit rather nicely in my mind, and in a way that is quite moving, if not mind blowing.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I like the jesus walking in the wilderness thing you said.

[Anddenex]

@wenglund - a thought that entered my heart and mind I am still pondering is that the "iron rod" (the word of God) is also Christ's church -- the kingdom of heaven upon this earth, which is the only kingdom that truly leads a person to partake of the fruit of the tree of life.

[Guest Mores]

On 2/20/2019 at 1:50 PM, mikbone said:

I don’t think it was the vision that blew Moses’ mind or made the brother of Jared fear for his life.  I think that it was just the experience of being in the presence and glory of the Lord.

Yeah, Sydney Rifdon was wrecked.

At the risk of sounding arrogant or judgmental, I believe such a conclusion would require conflation and desegregation in a previously unintended manner.

Edited March 18, 2019 by Mores