Redemption of Zion and the Fall of Adam

[e v e]

12 minutes ago, brotherofJared said:

Not what you wrote. That isn't anti-LDS. What the OP wrote. Both you and the OPer are entitled to your views and are welcome to express them, but the person who posted the OP is masquerading as a believing Mormon and he or she clearly isn't. Specifically, because of their claim that the Prophets lied to us (which implies that they knew or believed something other than what they taught which the OP cannot possibly know or certainly hasn't provided any evidence). 

Your opinions are fine, I didn't mean your post was anti. You're welcome to express your thoughts, as far as I know. But it appeared to me that you thought the OP was based on what we believe and those views are not. It is based on what the OPer believes which are exactly the opposite of what we believe.

As for the ancient of days, I stated in my post:  "Adam is the Ancient of Days". That's what we believe.

oh yes. i could see that about the op and didn’t like the evangelic tone.  i got confused by that... 

[brotherofJared]

8 minutes ago, LoveIsTruth said:

If my interpretation of scripture is not "sound," you need to prove it, my friend. Just saying it does not make it so.

Uh. No. We don't need to prove anything. You've provided your evidence and all we need to do is agree or disagree. There is no such thing as proof when it comes to the gospel, my friend.

 

12 minutes ago, LoveIsTruth said:

1) He does not give impossible commandments (1 Nephi 3:7), and

2) He commanded Adam and Eve to multiply AND not to partake of the fruit,  which inescapably means

God doesn't give impossible commands, that is true. And it would work if everyone did what they were supposed to do. Eve didn't. She ate the fruit. Now, doing both would be impossible. Eve is clearly the transgressor here. Adam had very little choice. At least there weren't very options that he knew about based on what we are told. Once Eve ate the fruit it was over. Either we would never come into existence or Adam would have to go with her. The burden of our existence fell on Adam's shoulders right after Eve ate the fruit.

We can all agree that Eve broke the commandment to not eat the fruit of that tree. There can be no doubt about that, but is what she did evil? It was wrong, we call all agree on that, but I don't think we can so easily say that it was evil. When she ate the fruit, she was incapable of evil. She had not yet fallen and had no knowledge of good and evil. We are not told the reason she chose to eat the fruit, but it seems obvious. When Lucifer told her this was how God did it, it isn't too much of a stretch to see that she could easily compare her current condition and that she could not be where God is without eating that fruit. Is wanting to be where God is evil? If it was, then is wanting to be saved now, to live where God and Christ are, evil? I don't think so. It isn't evil now and it wasn't evil then even if it was wrong.

[e v e]

28 minutes ago, brotherofJared said:

Not what you wrote. That isn't anti-LDS. What the OP wrote. Both you and the OPer are entitled to your views and are welcome to express them, but the person who posted the OP is masquerading as a believing Mormon and he or she clearly isn't. Specifically, because of their claim that the Prophets lied to us (which implies that they knew or believed something other than what they taught which the OP cannot possibly know or certainly hasn't provided any evidence). 

Your opinions are fine, I didn't mean your post was anti. You're welcome to express your thoughts, as far as I know. But it appeared to me that you thought the OP was based on what we believe and those views are not. It is based on what the OPer believes which are exactly the opposite of what we believe.

As for the ancient of days, I stated in my post:  "Adam is the Ancient of Days". That's what we believe.

Adam (and eve) are the only Gods i know of, and talk to and have met personally. and eve is the mother of all. Adam did go astray from His own father , don’t know if that was needed for a reason, which is why we are in the current type bodies. He will be restored. Adam leads the 144k at the Change. He is the man child. 

 

Edited February 8, 2020 by e v e

[e v e]

3 minutes ago, brotherofJared said:

Uh. No. We don't need to prove anything. You've provided your evidence and all we need to do is agree or disagree. There is no such thing as proof when it comes to the gospel, my friend.

 

God doesn't give impossible commands, that is true. And it would work if everyone did what they were supposed to do. Eve didn't. She ate the fruit. Now, doing both would be impossible. Eve is clearly the transgressor here. Adam had very little choice. At least there weren't very options that he knew about based on what we are told. Once Eve ate the fruit it was over. Either we would never come into existence or Adam would have to go with her. The burden of our existence fell on Adam's shoulders right after Eve ate the fruit.

We can all agree that Eve broke the commandment to not eat the fruit of that tree. There can be no doubt about that, but is what she did evil? It was wrong, we call all agree on that, but I don't think we can so easily say that it was evil. When she ate the fruit, she was incapable of evil. She had not yet fallen and had no knowledge of good and evil. We are not told the reason she chose to eat the fruit, but it seems obvious. When Lucifer told her this was how God did it, it isn't too much of a stretch to see that she could easily compare her current condition and that she could not be where God is without eating that fruit. Is wanting to be where God is evil? If it was, then is wanting to be saved now, to live where God and Christ are, evil? I don't think so. It isn't evil now and it wasn't evil then even if it was wrong.

she is incapable of evil. being God she didn’t need to eat of it. She is God and mother of all. The enemy tricked her into it... and she could have had sons without eating of it. but satan wanted to have sons and confused her. Female is the core of Him but male provides Context to her. Why was she left alone to make that mistake? 

[brotherofJared]

2 minutes ago, e v e said:

Adam (and eve) are the only Gods i know of, and talk to and have met personally. and eve is the mother of all.

It is indeed strange that you believe that the only God(s) that you know of are working for the devil's team. 

 

3 minutes ago, e v e said:

Adam did go astray from His own father

Further complicating the issue. If God has a father, then certainly you must believe that He is a God also, so doesn't that mean that you know of more gods than Adam and Eve? And where did Adam's father come from? Is it not possible that you only have a few pieces of the puzzle without a picture to guide you to complete the puzzle? And then, who is Christ?

[e v e]

Christ is He, God. Miss is His wife, also God. At the fall the enemy pierced eden, (per every ancient text, especially hieroglyphs, cites available) , taking from her the sons as hostage (144k of us, the originals of eden = adam.)  Per hieroglyphs and all ancient texts they use us as hostage, when by the fall they separated us from Him. We are adam as ‘son construct’ although Adam is also He, leader of 144k, Christ (He is Michael, not the evangelical version of jesus). We are here for a reason, to win back from Him attributes that satanic realm took without permission. But, spelled.... and therefore most christianity (as adam) doesn’t realize about miss or He and follow the roman-evangelical version. since we are adam (sons and daughters) and we will be restored each to deity, then, we are in fact until the company is complete - working for them in their substandard material realm, and in a lower type of ‘body’ than intended. 

The satanic realm (deities but deities not agreeing to His version and proceeding to try to sway adam to their cause still) made His sons to fall, and succeeded because we are innocent! Possibly God allowed this.. somehow necessary as a war tactic to get back from the satanic enemy what it stole from Him previously. i wouldn’t say this substandard earth we have now was His plan...

Its hard to explain in brief. I couldn’t really do so yet. 

Edited February 8, 2020 by e v e

[brotherofJared]

4 minutes ago, e v e said:

she is incapable of evil.

She WAS incapable, but having knowledge of it and being given the choice, then she IS capable. Whether or not she ever did any wrong after she ate the fruit is unknown. I don't think she or Adam ever did any wrong or evil after the fall. They are probably two of the most perfect persons that ever walked the earth, nevertheless, their actions had consequences.

 

7 minutes ago, e v e said:

being God she didn’t need to eat of it.

Now you're just denying what the scriptures tell us. Some being, who I think is God, but you seem either not to know him or to have a different idea of who that being is, told them not to eat of the fruit of that tree. I would presume that the reason was, besides dying, would be to obtain something they didn't have, like the tree of life. That tree was unimportant while they had life, but it suddenly became important enough for God to guard it to keep Adam and Eve from partaking. In other words, the name of the tree provided an attribute that the individual did not have. It's obvious she wasn't God as I'm sure that God knows the difference between good and evil (both Lucifer and God acknowledged this truth) and neither was Adam. However, none of that changes the one fact that the earth was Adam's and he was given dominion over it. He still has that dominion.

But, Eve did need to eat it. It was possible for her to die. It was impossible for God to die. There was an obvious difference between her and God. So, not God.

17 minutes ago, e v e said:

The enemy tricked her into it... and she could have had sons without eating of it.

Having children wasn't the problem, at least, not a problem that we are aware of. Not having children became a problem once she would be separated from Adam. I don't think Eve was tricked into anything. She knew full well the consequences of eating the fruit. She had Lucifer's input, she could be like the gods and she had God's input, she would die. There's no trickery there. It doesn't take much intelligence to realize that God must know good and evil and she did not. Lucifer's statement that it was how God obtained his knowledge may not be true, but it was how she could obtain her knowledge, but she also knew that it would cause her death. In my mind, it was a matter of weighing the consequences against the benefits and she made a choice based on that. It seems to me that she had more information about it than we do. I would suggest, speculate, that she knew that her destiny was to live with God, not spend eternity in a garden tending it. How to get from point A to point B? I believe it occurred to her that there was no other way.

 

28 minutes ago, e v e said:

Female is the core of Him but male provides Context to her. Why was she left alone to make that mistake?

I've said this before, but I do not believe that connection is what makes a man and a woman one. They were and always have been separate entities. She was alone because she is a separate entity and can and does make choices of her own free will. Her decisions, however, can and often do affect the whole, the husband and the wife. This was a big one and it wasn't a mistake. I believe it was carefully planned and executed. It opened the door for temptation because we would be accountable having knowledge, but God made sure that it would not be more than we could bear.

[e v e]

i will ponder and reply. thank you. 

[brotherofJared]

5 minutes ago, e v e said:

Christ is He, God. Miss is His wife, also God.

Just to be clear, Christ is Adam, the first man who died when he was 900 years old?

 

6 minutes ago, e v e said:

At the fall the enemy pierced eden

It is apparent from the scriptures that the enemy was already in the garden of eden before the fall.

 

7 minutes ago, e v e said:

taking from her the sons as hostage (144k of us, the originals of eden = adam.)  Per hieroglyphs and all ancient texts they use us as hostage, when by the fall they separated us from Him.

Might as well be heiroglyphs, I don't understand what you just said. I have peices of it, but what you believe doesn't make sense to me.

 

 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, e v e said:

The satanic realm (deities but deities not agreeing to His version and proceeding to try to sway adam to their cause still) made His sons to fall, and succeeded because we are innocent! Possibly God allowed this.. somehow necessary as a war tactic to get back from the satanic enemy what it stole from Him previously. i wouldn’t say this substandard earth we have now was His plan...

Its hard to explain in brief. I couldn’t really do so yet. 

 

I agree that Satan and his followers were once in the divine council and that he made them fall, but he succeeded because they were evil. I believe you are talking about human sons though, and those that follow him here are also doing so, not because of innocence, but for the same reason his followers followed him.

I cannot agree that God is employing any war tactic. His work is that we choose for ourselves good or evil, Him or Satan. He will willing to help anyone who asks him for help, but we are not pawns in his war.

[Rimon]

I heard a Rabbi speak on the eating of the fruit in the garden and he gave the perspective of God asking Eve “how did you know I wanted you to eat of the fruit”?  Instead of assuming God was upset as is the typical interpretation.  

He also mentioned that Adam and Eve were sent because this world needed them (us).  This world was fallen and needed to be “saved” in a sense by having good people come down and fix it.  So they fell, as they were sent to do, to bring this world up.  

The earth does need to go through the stages as well and can’t really do that without the plan taking place on it.  So I can see the Rabbi’s interpretation as warranting some consideration.

Rabbi Manis Friedman is who I am referring to.

[e v e]

8 hours ago, e v e said:

Adam (and eve) are the only Gods i know of, and talk to and have met personally. and eve is the mother of all. Adam did go astray from His own father , don’t know if that was needed for a reason, which is why we are in the current type bodies. He will be restored. Adam leads the 144k at the Change. He is the man child. 

 

Im sorry if what i wrote was confusing. i think of Christ and miss as connected to adam.... Adam represents His sons, currently in the state of having been separated from Him , having been reduced to this world. 

Edited February 9, 2020 by e v e

[brotherofJared]

24 minutes ago, Rimon said:

He also mentioned that Adam and Eve were sent because this world needed them (us).  This world was fallen and needed to be “saved” in a sense by having good people come down and fix it.  So they fell, as they were sent to do, to bring this world up.  

This would assume that there were people on the earth before Adam arrived. Which means that there are people on the earth now that are not descendants of Adam. Which means the scriptures are not correct.

[brotherofJared]

7 minutes ago, e v e said:

Im sorry if what i wrote was confusing. i think of Christ and miss as the same as adam... i talk to christ and miss is another way to say the same. Adam represents His sons,

currently in the state of having been separated from Him , having been reduced to a man here. 

I'm talking about physical people. Adam is not a conglomerate of men and Eve is not a spirit inside of man and Christ is the Son of God who was crucified for our sins.

[Rimon]

1 minute ago, brotherofJared said:

This would assume that there were people on the earth before Adam arrived. Which means that there are people on the earth now that are not descendants of Adam. Which means the scriptures are not correct.

Actually, the temple session does leave an impression of me that maybe there were other people.  I have no idea and it doesn’t really make a difference for me.  Just sharing a different perspective on the matter.

[e v e]

1 minute ago, brotherofJared said:

I'm talking about physical people. Adam is not a conglomerate of men and Eve is not a spirit inside of man and Christ is the Son of God who was crucified for our sins.

Oh, I was talking about in the other world... Adam as His represent, who fell, not Adam upon this earth = us.

[brotherofJared]

Just now, Rimon said:

Actually, the temple session does leave an impression of me that maybe there were other people.  I have no idea and it doesn’t really make a difference for me.  Just sharing a different perspective on the matter.

Ok. I can see how you get that, but I believe the inference is not people who were alive in a thriving community in the days of Adam, but it is actually speaking about us, as though we were there. The information we are given is meant to be symbolic, not an actual representation of events as they occurred. But the idea that "of one blood came all the nations of the earth" would exclude the possibility of other people being present when Adam and Eve arrived. Of course, the Rabbi wouldn't have that scripture.

[e v e]

1 hour ago, brotherofJared said:

It is indeed strange that you believe that the only God(s) that you know of are working for the devil's team. 

>>>reply - Adam being astray in the other world will be resolved. I am not talking about Adam, after the fall, here in materiality...

Further complicating the issue. If God has a father, then certainly you must believe that He is a God also, so doesn't that mean that you know of more gods than Adam and Eve? And where did Adam's father come from? Is it not possible that you only have a few pieces of the puzzle without a picture to guide you to complete the puzzle? And then, who is Christ?
....reply - Yes Adam's father is God, from whom adam was separated.

 

[brotherofJared]

3 minutes ago, e v e said:

Oh, I was talking about in the other world... Adam as His represent, who fell, not Adam upon this earth = us.

That Adam, on the other world is the exact same Adam who fell and became a mortal on this earth <> us but = the first man, a single individual with his wife who was Eve.

[brotherofJared]

Just now, e v e said:

 

To spilt my comments and respond as you go, highlight the text and then select "quote selection" in the pop up. You can do this several times for the same post. It will put the new quoted selection in the reply box where your cursor was last positioned.

[e v e]

Just now, brotherofJared said:

To spilt my comments and respond as you go, highlight the text and then select "quote selection" in the pop up. You can do this several times for the same post. It will put the new quoted selection in the reply box where your cursor was last positioned.

okay. I didnt know how to do that. I will see if I can edit my other response.

[e v e]

8 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

She WAS incapable, but having knowledge of it and being given the choice, then she IS capable. Whether or not she ever did any wrong after she ate the fruit is unknown. I don't think she or Adam ever did any wrong or evil after the fall. They are probably two of the most perfect persons that ever walked the earth, nevertheless, their actions had consequences. 

I would just say that they were not upon 'this earth' as we understand earth now.  Also while the version of the fallen pantheon (satan etc.) was that they were tending garden... I would not agree... but after the fall, adam was tending theirs, and growing their plants. Most of the OT involves the other world, and not this current earth...

7 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

Just to be clear, Christ is Adam, the first man who died when he was 900 years old?

I am not referring to adam upon the current earth, but in the other world, and he is still there, and so is eve.

 

7 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

It is apparent from the scriptures that the enemy was already in the garden of eden before the fall.

Factually, the other realm, of the fallen watchers, had been attempting to create material humanoids and were there. Eden was planted in their very midst, and was of an entirely different calibre and nature, of which they were jealous, prompting the plot to make Eden fall.

Edited February 9, 2020 by e v e

[e v e]

1 hour ago, brotherofJared said:

It is apparent from the scriptures that the enemy was already in the garden of eden before the fall. 

Yes they were there, of course they were... having been attempting to create reality of their own, which is the dualism realm of good and evil.

[e v e]

1 hour ago, brotherofJared said:

Might as well be heiroglyphs, I don't understand what you just said. I have peices of it, but what you believe doesn't make sense to me.

I don't know how to multiquote yet. I'm sorry.

You were referring to what I said about the 144k attributes stolen from He and Miss. I know it does not make sense.

Imagine that part of your very being and soul was taken out of you and because of that you are alone. Adam was part of God, and was taken out of God. Remember in scripture where eve was the rib taken out of adam?

 

[e v e]

6 hours ago, e v e said:

I don't know how to multiquote yet. I'm sorry.

You were referring to what I said about the 144k attributes stolen from He and Miss. I know it does not make sense to you.

Imagine that part of your very being and soul was taken out of you and because of that you are alone. Adam was part of God, and was taken out of God. Remember in scripture where eve was the rib taken out of adam? Christ played out that very situation, in our place, by coming here as the son... who is Adam..part of Him who went astray. I don't mean physically. Your wife is part of you, as are your children, and those you love. Adam is the prodigal son.

 

 

Edited February 9, 2020 by e v e

[e v e]

7 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

I'm talking about physical people. Adam is not a conglomerate of men and Eve is not a spirit inside of man and Christ is the Son of God who was crucified for our sins.

I am not talking about in this substandard, current world..

I am saying that she is His core of Love, and as mother provides the very nature of Eden. Just as in your home, your wife provides the love and nurture which is the female attribute and you from that home base, go out in the world and make things happen for your family. You provide executive male functions and she provides the nurture and love by which you can make a pretty world for her. It's a family description. He and She are God, Adam (s) and Eve are the sons and daughters in God's image, elohim, there is the trinity, the three of them. Adam as represent of all the sons and daughters and being the son He, Christ came to save. He (Michael/Christ - God) speaks and creates from that love. So He does not create ex nihilo and he does not create from existing stuff... its the fallen pantheon who create by existing materials that way... giving materiality as the result...He creates from Love itself, and postulates reality, brings it to be, and makes it palpable. That is creation... and the very way that new souls of Him come to be as well, by the word of God and from Miss - not by material sex..which is a lower form of creating.  As for Adam as deity, yes, because we are speaking of three generations. He and Miss, Adam and eve, and then all the millions born onto this earth (who were not in Eden), since that time. Adam represents all the 144k to be saved souls and to rule with Christ. Since the sons who are with adam are not all doing as Christ wishes,  then yes, adam is still deluded working for the other realm, and remains fallen in that sense. An LDS poster above said something similar, about how those who do not do as God wishes, preventing all from Going home. That is true. Sorry if I misphrased that poster. I am going to find his post and quote it here... because I don't want to misrepresent his opinion.

Edited February 9, 2020 by e v e