Women and Priesthood Power

[Vort]

.

Edited February 12, 2020 by Vort

[JohnsonJones]

4 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

@JohnsonJones  I respectfully disagree with, what I think is the overarching theme, of your post.  When I read your post, it was thrown back into the way I understood the Priesthood before Pres. Nelson's talk, Spiritual Treasures, and all the study I have done since that time to understand what he wants the sisters to know.  

One of my favorite prophets was Ezra Taft Benson, I can almost hear his voice when I think of his words telling us to trust the current prophet because he has TNT: Today's News Today.  So any views I held in the past which are inconsistent with the most recent counsel from Pres. Nelson, I'll happily put aside for new ideas.  With that in mind---not trying to change YOUR opinion, but mostly for the other women/sisters reading this thread.  I'll share some of the quotes from Pres. Nelson that changed my thinking...

You said something about a woman using her husband's priesthood...I used to think that too, that's why i thought priesthood was "a man thing" and zoned out when leaders talked about it.  Too bad too, because now I'm playing catch up and realizing so many great messages of the past that apply to ME as well.
 

He goes on to say that if we truly understand that it will CHANGE YOUR LIFE.  So true!!!  So true!!!  It is changing mine already.  That's why I'm so excited to talk to other sisters about this.  

My favorite part of his talk is this...

 

Sisters, do you see what he has given us here?  No manual, and no man...will teach us how to use the priesthood power WE have been endowed with.

 We will learn that from the Holy Ghost.  In my experience, the Holy Ghost teaches me after I have done my homework. which in this case means rereading Pres. Nelson's talk, reading other talks about women and the priesthood, reading the scriptures, particualrly the ones Pres. Nelson, but also reading the Book of Mormon brings the Spirit more into my life.  Next, I read books, like Sister Gardner, Sis. Ulrich, and Sis. Dew wrote on this topic....after all that and during all that, the Holy Ghost has been teaching me how I might use His priesthood power.  God's priesthood power, not my husbands, God's.   But that part is personal and I won't share it here.   Perhaps the inspiration you receive will be similiar, or different...I really don't know...but the important thing is you will know it is right, nevermind what anyone else tries to tell you, because YOU received that direction from the Holy Ghost for YOUR life.  

 

No worries, I was just stating what I was taught and the church's own website.

I was also not actually addressing about women in the priesthood specifically in that post, but more on what the Priesthood is and how it gives Fathers a divine right in their roles as Fathers in the home (as per other posts prior to it in the thread).

Due to plagiarism items I won't quote the entire article, as that is not proper...normally only two or three paragraphs of something someone else has copyrighted.

As I said, there is a difference between priesthood power and authority.  The Power of the LORD is priesthood, but we must be careful of how we phrase things.  It could be interpreted in statements that one is HOLDING the power of the Lord and wielding the priesthood as the Lord would when they have not been ordained to do so (like the person trying to claim to be an officer when they have not been granted that authority).  If it were that anyone could simply pray and claim the priesthood, then there is no reason for our church to have this as a unique claim, as ALL churches who claim the priesthood would also have it and wield it.  This is not so...in my opinion.  Thus, as the Kingdom is one of order, there must be order in the Church.  It must be done by the methods and order in which the Lord has decreed rather than what man wants it to be...lest we give legitimacy and start claiming the Catholic Church or others are the true church of the Lord on this earth. 

We must see the differences between what we claim as the Priesthood authority and HOW and WHY WE have it, rather than others who also claim to have this power (such as other Christian denominations).

However, as I said, much of the post deals with priesthood authority.  As this is a different post I'll add a paragraph or two which I wanted to include originally, but did not due to having already quoted much.

From the same article

Quote

Authority and Power of the Priesthood

There is a difference between the authority of the priesthood and the power of the priesthood. Priesthood authority comes from ordination. Power comes from personal righteousness.

 

The World Needs the Priesthood

The Church provides the organization and means for teaching the gospel of Jesus Christ to all of God’s children. The priesthood includes the authority to administer ordinances of salvation to all human beings who are willing and worthy to accept them. Without the priesthood and the saving ordinances thereof, “the whole earth would be utterly wasted” (see Doctrine and Covenants 2:1–3; see also Doctrine and Covenants 84:21–22).

Authority is only from ordination.  For the Aaronic and Melchezidek Priesthood women do not receive this ordination in our current church.  This is due to roles being different in this life and the hereafter.

Those who do not have the Priesthood in this manner, or priesthood authority can still be blessed by the Priesthood.  The ordinances performed by the Priesthood are blessings they can have in their life, and the blessings (such as the dedication of a home, or the administering to the sick and afflicted) of a Priesthood holder can also bless their home.

However, there are things in the past that directly show that a wife can use her husband's priesthood (and it normally explicitly mentions that they are doing this and how they did this when general authorities have explained it in the past).  This is not something we commonly exercise today that I have seen.

As I said, in my opinion (one that has been shared by a few general authorities in the past) but is not necessarily doctrine, a man and a woman enter the highest order of the priesthood together and as such, this priesthood is jointly held.  It is under the patriarchal order, and as such, it is the man who leads in this and has the authority (much like the Bishop of a ward has authority over the ward) but the wife also can utilize it in delegation or when he is absent (similar to a counselor of the ward, though it would be more of a co-Bishop under the leadership of the main Bishop if we are having similarities).

This is reflected at the end of the article where it states

Quote

Women Participate in the Work of the Priesthood

President M. Russell Ballard taught: “In our Heavenly Father’s great priesthood-endowed plan, men have the unique responsibility to administer the priesthood, but they are not the priesthood. Men and women have different but equally valued roles. Just as a woman cannot conceive a child without a man, so a man cannot fully exercise the power of the priesthood to establish an eternal family without a woman. In other words, in the eternal perspective, both the procreative power and the priesthood power are shared by husband and wife” (“This Is My Work and My Glory,” Apr. 2013 general conference).

This is from the Church's own website.

Gospel Topics - Priesthood

I am not trying to change an opinion, merely to present what I understand has been the church's stance for many years on the subject.  Of course, the church may change it's teachings on the subject, and I may be behind on the subject. 

Though this post was more in answer to thoughts on woman and ordination, the prior post I had I was actually answering in regards to others (not you, to be honest) who were questioning about what the Father's role in the Priesthood is and what benefit or power it gives a Father in the Home via the Priesthood.

Edited February 12, 2020 by JohnsonJones

[JohnsonJones]

Errgg...Double Post.

Edited February 12, 2020 by JohnsonJones
Forum acted up...so double post.

[Guest MormonGator]

3 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

Errgg...Double Post.

Dude, you expect us to read TWO of your posts? We'd be here until 2024. 

(Just playing @JohnsonJones. You know I have nothing but love for you) 

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

@JohnsonJones Sis. Gardner is fond of saying that when we talk about the priesthood it is often like the 3 blind men describing the elephant, in that we are talking about different things and so we are all partially right, but we are also all wrong.   I think this may be what is happening in our discussion.  Most of what you say I agree with, but there are a few things that I strongly disagree with, but perhaps I'm simply thinking about "a different part of the elephant"?   

Perhaps a way to clear up some confusion is to ask...are you saying that a single endowed woman doesn't have the priesthood in her home because she isn't married?  Because that was my understanding BEFORE Pres. Nelson's Spiritual Treasures talk.  Since hearing and rereading his talk, my understanding of the priesthood has changed substantially.  As I read the scriptures Pres. Nelson recommended, and previous talks by our Leaders....they support what Pres. Nelson said.  I realize now, they have been trying to teach this all along, but I missed it and it appears I'm not the only one.  

Here is the quote about that from the prophet:
 

Here is an example of what I mean that Leaders have been teaching this all along:

Quote

“. . . When men and women go to the temple, they are both endowed with the same power, which by definition is priesthood power. 

“ . . . As President Joseph Fielding Smith (1876–1972) explained: “The blessings of the priesthood are not confined to men alone. These blessings are also poured out upon … all the faithful women of the Church. … The Lord offers to his daughters every spiritual gift and blessing that can be obtained by his sons.”⁶

 Elder Ballard, Men, Women and Priesthood Power, Ensign, September, 2014

 

Edited February 14, 2020 by LiterateParakeet

[JohnsonJones]

4 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

@JohnsonJones Sis. Gardner is fond of saying that when we talk about the priesthood it is often like the 3 blind men describing the elephant, in that we are talking about different things and so we are all partially right, but we are also all wrong.   I think this may be what is happening in our discussion.  Most of what you say I agree with, but there are a few things that I strongly disagree with, but perhaps I'm simply thinking about "a different part of the elephant"?   

Perhaps a way to clear up some confusion is to ask...are you saying that a single endowed woman doesn't have the priesthood in her home because she isn't married?  Because that was my understanding BEFORE Pres. Nelson's Spiritual Treasures talk.  Since hearing and rereading his talk, my understanding of the priesthood has changed substantially.  As I read the scriptures Pres. Nelson recommended, and previous talks by our Leaders....they support what Pres. Nelson said.  I realize now, they have been trying to teach this all along, but I missed it and it appears I'm not the only one.  

Here is the quote about that from the prophet:
 

Here is an example of what I mean that Leaders have been teaching this all along:

 

They can be blessed by the Power of the Priesthood, however, they will not have an individual which has the Authority to perform certain Priesthood actions (Such as ordinances) in the Home.

For example, if a single lady wants the home to be dedicated in a Priesthood ordinance, she can pray and ask the Lord to bless the home and her, but for the actual dedication under a Priesthood Holder or one that has been granted that authority, she would need to call someone else.

The example given above regarding officers could apply to this.  A Police officer has been granted the authority to do certain actions.  We cannot take those same actions legally.  We cannot give a speeding ticket.  We cannot put someone in jail.  However, we all can experience life under the laws of the land, or have the freedom to stop people from intruding in our homes (well, in many nations we have that freedom).  We may even be able to make citizen arrests in some places of the world.  However, there are some functions that Police officers are specifically authorized to do which we (as your everyday citizen) cannot do. (though @mirkwood I think he's a Police officer...might be able to).

We all can experience and be blessed by the Priesthood.  We can be blessed by the Power of the Priesthood and we can also be blessed by the ordinances given out by the Authority of the Priesthood.  There is a difference between the two though sometimes we use them as the same term.

However, one also must be careful not to conflate too much to being able to wield the power of the Priesthood without the proper authority.  This is why there needed to be a restoration of the Aaronic and Melchizedek Priesthood.  We do not believe that the Catholic church or any other church has the correct authority to perform the ordinances necessary for salvation except our own church.  One needs to be ordained to perform things that require the authority to do so.  Without the authority given under the Priesthood, no one can receive the blessings there of.  No one is there to be the representative of the Lord or stand in his place as his representative authorized by him without the proper ordination (and guidance of the spirit) in that manner.

When one claims more authority than that which has been granted, it is like us impersonating a Police officer.  It does not matter how many may believe us, we still do not have the authority.  This has been a vital claim on the legitimacy (and necessity) of our church in the past.  As such, if we did away with such a teaching to say anyone can use the priesthood authority in whatever manner they desire, it would delegitimize part of the teachings of the Church of the past (though who knows what would happen in the future).

On the otherhand, we can all have the blessings of the Priesthood in our lives and we can experience the power of the Preisthood in our lives regardless of whether we are priesthood holders or not. There are several ways that one can experience these things, however, most of what I've discussed in this thread deals with Priesthood authority and why that is important (especially) for the Fathers of the Home.

 

 

And I am putting this divider in as what follows is connected, but in some ways different as well and addresses a different topic.  I thought about starting another thread regarding this, but it is connected to what I wrote in this thread and the reason I jumped in (originally I was happy to let it go as it was going)

 

I know this is a thread about Women in the Priesthood, but an alarming thing I feel in the Church is that we are losing many of the Men.  I saw a survey that was done several years ago that showed that back then they were losing enough young men in the church that Single Women outnumbered Men by a 3 to 2 ratio.  As one advanced in age, the number of single women to single men got much worse to where at one point it exceeded 10 to 1.  This is alarming because it means even if every woman in the Church that is active WANTS to have a celestial marriage, at that point (and it's probably worse now) would not be able to be married in the temple.  There simply are not enough men to marry women to do so.

I can understand the reasons on emphasizing women's roles in the church and what they can do, but sometimes we do it by de-emphasizing the role of Husbands and Fathers.  One way to get people uninterested or to lose interest in an organization is to make them feel unimportant or unwanted. I think some of the recent moves of the Church has been to deemphasize the importance of the Priesthood Authority and Fathers and Husbands, which may accelerate this trend (I do not know the current numbers of men in the church and their ratios to women) of more men leaving the church or not joining the church leaving uneven numbers between men and women.

When I saw in this thread people not realizing the importance of Fathers and Husbands being Preisthood holders, or being given the Aaronic or Melchizedek Priesthood I felt a need to emphasize that there IS an importance to being a Priesthood Holder, that there are divine rights and privileges granted to Fathers and Husbands because they are righteous Priesthood holders.

This is because there IS order in the Kingdom and within the Church, otherwise we might as well join the (more liberal...conservative ones would disagree with this) Baptists who feel the Priesthood can come upon any who ask and wield it with equal power and authority to any other without ordination or any other thing other than them simply acting Christian.

Edited February 14, 2020 by JohnsonJones

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

44 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

However, one also must be careful not to conflate too much to being able to wield the power of the Priesthood without the proper authority.  This is why there needed to be a restoration of the Aaronic and Melchizedek Priesthood.  We do not believe that the Catholic church or any other church has the correct authority to perform the ordinances necessary for salvation except our own church.  One needs to be ordained to perform things that require the authority to do so.  Without the authority given under the Priesthood, no one can receive the blessings there of.  No one is there to be the representative of the Lord or stand in his place as his representative authorized by him without the proper ordination (and guidance of the spirit) in that manner.

Along these same lines, the prayer of a woman who is endowed with priesthood power is not the same as a prayer by someone else who has not been given priesthood power.  I take the quote above by Elder Ballard quite literally.  No, I won't be performing baptisms, or things like that, as that is not my role...but in accordance with my role, I can, and do call down the powers of heaven the same as my husband. 
 

49 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

I can understand the reasons on emphasizing women's roles in the church and what they can do, but sometimes we do it by de-emphasizing the role of Husbands and Fathers.

But it's not a see-saw where when one is up the other is down.  Men and women should be equal partners.  If we are going to think in an see-saw fashion, then it would mean that women have been down, and now that they are rising, men are going down.  I hope that no one believes that.  

 

[JohnsonJones]

49 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

But it's not a see-saw where when one is up the other is down.  Men and women should be equal partners.  If we are going to think in an see-saw fashion, then it would mean that women have been down, and now that they are rising, men are going down.  I hope that no one believes that.  

As I said, I may be behind on changing teachings of the Church.

In the past, women and men were considered equal partners, but with different roles to perform in a family.  A wife was to be a mother and teacher to their children. The Father was the protector and leader of the family.

Because of this, and the Priesthood authority granted to Fathers, the priesthood held by a Father held a very important role in the home.

Further in the past (we are talking prior to 1910 and 1920) women also had other ways in which they used the priesthood...

Now, when the Father was absent, the mother could call upon their husband's priesthood to perform blessings or other functions.  This was seen as an extension as they were part of the Priesthood granted to them during the sealing of them together in eternal matrimony.

Now, there is a difference between the Power of the Priesthood and the Authority of the Priesthood.  However, how we interpret that various things said over the years are probably up to each individual.

Just because all can be blessed by the Power of the Lord does not mean that we should use that as synonymous with the Priesthood lest the lines between someone who has not been ordained to the Priesthood vs. those of other faiths become non-existence.  If there is no reason to be a Priesthood holder and no significance given to those who are ordained to the Priesthood, the very reasons for the existence of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in many ways could be called up to question.

We either have had the Priesthood restored in our day (giving us the Priesthood authority) or we have not.  If anyone can use it and call down priesthood power, then by logic, ANYONE OF ANY FAITH has the Priesthood power and the significance of it being restored in our latter day loses it's meaning.

55 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

Along these same lines, the prayer of a woman who is endowed with priesthood power is not the same as a prayer by someone else who has not been given priesthood power.  I take the quote above by Elder Ballard quite literally.  No, I won't be performing baptisms, or things like that, as that is not my role...but in accordance with my role, I can, and do call down the powers of heaven the same as my husband.

And here we have another term.  When one is endowed it is giving them an endowment of power (and some could say authority).  It is a blessing and also one which will be a protection to those who receive it.  This is a part of the Priesthood power and very much in line with differentiating one from others.  It is not giving them the same authority to wield as a sealing, nor does it seal them up to the Highest Glory or degree of the Celestial Kingdom, but it grants many blessings which a great many do not understand.

Studying out what these blessings are or could be can be very beneficial.

One does not need this endowment to receive a calling in the Church (that is under the umbrella of delegation rather than granting of power as some assume).

It instead grants many promises and blessings to those who get the endowment.   As these are covered (though when one studies it out, they can find many more blessings of it) via the temple, it is not something I'll really cover in this thread, but it is something people should study as the blessings are some of the greatest the gospel has to offer.

The mistake I see most commonly is that those ordained to the Priesthood gain power over others.  This is a misunderstanding of what the Priesthood is.  The Priesthood may grant authority, but it is NOT the authority to command others or to be a ruler.  In fact, someone who tries to exercise Priesthood in this manner will not be able to use it to begin with.

In this the term...power...is probably misleading.  When we use the term Priesthood power people assume we are using the idea of POWER as the world understands it, where we gain the ability to control others.  This is NOT what the Priesthood Power really represents.

It is instead the ability to serve.  Those who lust after the Priesthood because of some idea they have that it makes a male dictatorship do not understand what it actually is.  The Priesthood is there to build others up, not oneself.  If at anytime it is used to try to rule others, it is not the Priesthood being used, but unlawful and unrighteous dominion.

Instead, it is similar to the refrain used in many other aspects of the gospel where the first are last and the last are first.  The Greatest are those that are the servant, not the masters.

If one wants to understand Priesthood authority and Priesthood Power better, including women, the first thing to look at is HOW does this help me serve someone else better?  Instead of calling it Priesthood Power...simply calling it the Priesthood or even better, how one can be more Christlike is probably the better way to try to see how one actually can be blessed by the Priesthood.

Service to others is the key to Priesthood power and Priesthood authority, and by better understanding service, both men and women can better understand the role Priesthood plays in their lives.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

@JohnsonJones I think we are getting closer to understanding each other, and we agree more than disagree.  
 

3 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

In the past, women and men were considered equal partners, but with different roles to perform in a family.  A wife was to be a mother and teacher to their children. The Father was the protector and leader of the family.

Because of this, and the Priesthood authority granted to Fathers, the priesthood held by a Father held a very important role in the home.

I agree, and that has not changed.  
 

3 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

Now, when the Father was absent, the mother could call upon their husband's priesthood to perform blessings or other functions.  This was seen as an extension as they were part of the Priesthood granted to them during the sealing of them together in eternal matrimony.

THIS ^ is what Pres. Nelson clarified in his talk Spiritual Treasures. I don't call upon the Lord via my husband's priesthood.  Pres. Nelson said a single woman who has not yet been married, but has been endowed has the priesthood through HER temple covenants.  
 

3 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

Now, there is a difference between the Power of the Priesthood and the Authority of the Priesthood.

I agree. I assure you, I'm not aspring to be a Bishop, LOL, or to lay my hands on someone's head to give them a blessing....women can be granted priesthood authority in their callings though.  Both Pres. Nelson and Pres. Oaks have talked about this.  
 

3 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

Just because all can be blessed by the Power of the Lord does not mean that we should use that as synonymous with the Priesthood lest the lines between someone who has not been ordained to the Priesthood vs. those of other faiths become non-existence.  If there is no reason to be a Priesthood holder and no significance given to those who are ordained to the Priesthood, the very reasons for the existence of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in many ways could be called up to question.

I agree. That isn't what I'm talking about.  I'm saying God has blessed His sons AND his daughters with priesthood power. Remember the quote from Elder Ballard I shared up thread?  I'm not talking about general blessings any member of the church receives, I'm talking about something we receive through out temple covenants as Elder Ballard said.
 

3 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

We either have had the Priesthood restored in our day (giving us the Priesthood authority) or we have not.  If anyone can use it and call down priesthood power, then by logic, ANYONE OF ANY FAITH has the Priesthood power and the significance of it being restored in our latter day loses it's meaning.

I didn't say anyone, or any member....I said women (men also) who have made covenants with the Lord in the temple.  
 

3 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

And here we have another term.  When one is endowed it is giving them an endowment of power (and some could say authority).  It is a blessing and also one which will be a protection to those who receive it.  This is a part of the Priesthood power and very much in line with differentiating one from others.  It is not giving them the same authority to wield as a sealing, nor does it seal them up to the Highest Glory or degree of the Celestial Kingdom,

Agreed.  My husband is not granted power to seal either....unless he is someday called to be a sealer and given those keys.  

Quote

but it grants many blessings which a great many do not understand.

THAT is what i have been talking about this whole time. 
 

3 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

If one wants to understand Priesthood authority and Priesthood Power better, including women, the first thing to look at is HOW does this help me serve someone else better?  Instead of calling it Priesthood Power...simply calling it the Priesthood or even better, how one can be more Christlike is probably the better way to try to see how one actually can be blessed by the Priesthood.

Agreed, I will use the priesthood, that I have access to because of my temple covenants, to serve and bless others.  

Edited February 14, 2020 by LiterateParakeet

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

I am studying the Oath and Covenant of the Priesthood...and in the Doctrine and Covenants Teachers Manual i found this wonderful gem.“

Quote

 

The full blessings of the priesthood are received together as husband and wife or not at all.

"It is interesting that in the oath and covenant of the priesthood, the Lord uses the verbs obtain and receive. He does not use the verb ordain. It is in the temple that men and women—together—obtain and receive the blessings and power of both the Aaronic and Melchizedek Priesthoods” 

Paul B. Pieper, “Revealed Realities of Mortality,” Ensign, Jan. 2016, 21

 

I was discussing this topic with my husband and he says the priesthood power we are endowed with in the temple is like:  1 + 1 = 5.  In other words, we are stronger together than separately.