Hill Cumorah

[Guest bizabra]

Originally posted by Behunin@Jan 14 2004, 05:17 AM

Peace,

Your sacred experiences are wasted on some people on this board. Which makes me wonder again: What is their intent?

For people who can't stand LDS people, why do they bother with a LDS talk forum?

Hill Cumorah was not the battle field. No weapons to find. Moroni didn't bury the plates for another 20 years after that "final" battle.

I love many mormon people. My entire extended family are mormon. I love them all. I am ethnically mormon. I am very interested in mormonsism.

[Guest bizabra]

Originally posted by Peace+Jan 14 2004, 09:01 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Peace @ Jan 14 2004, 09:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -bizabra@Jan 13 2004, 10:55 PM

Originally posted by -Peace@Jan 13 2004, 10:52 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Jan 13 2004, 08:41 AM

Peace--you felt your bones come together and mend.  And this proves what? I guess it prove whatever you WANT it to prove. I suppose it proves to you that YOUR GOD came down and healed you. How do you know that it wasn't that Mohammed, or some other God took pity on you and decided to heal you?

Did you know....that when you have a spirit from the other side visit you, that your spirits interface? Of course not. LOL You have never experienced that or anything else like unto it....otherwise you wouldn't ask such silly questions or put out such silly ideas.

When I had my father's first wife (deceased) come to me in spirit, our spirits interfaced and I knew her every thought emotion and personality. IOW I KNEW her...and yet she died before I was born.

I know from when my blessings come.

WOW! I want some of what your taking!

Yeah? Well what I took was the bitter pill called loosing a child to SIDs...so if that is what you want...so be it.

Of course I am sorry for your loss. You did not mention it in your post. I would not wish that on anyone! Ever! My apologies. . . .

[Guest bizabra]

Originally posted by Peace+Jan 14 2004, 09:22 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Peace @ Jan 14 2004, 09:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Behunin@Jan 14 2004, 05:17 AM

Peace,

Your sacred experiences are wasted on some people on this board.  Which makes me wonder again: What is their intent? 

For people who can't stand LDS people, why do they bother with a LDS talk forum?

It sure does make you wonder. My own personal opinion is this: They can leave the church, but they can't leave it alone....why? because the same spirit of contention that caused them to lose their testimonies...drives them to persecute the saints.

After all it was X-mos that murdered JS.

Peace, please read my posts in "General". They are under the topic BIZ now. Why don't you TRY to see things from other peoples POV once in a while? I would never consider myself to be "anti mormon".

BTW, you are wrong about who killed JS. The mob was not comprised of ex members.

[Behunin]

Originally posted by bizabra+Jan 14 2004, 10:22 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (bizabra @ Jan 14 2004, 10:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Behunin@Jan 14 2004, 05:17 AM

Peace,

Your sacred experiences are wasted on some people on this board.  Which makes me wonder again: What is their intent? 

For people who can't stand LDS people, why do they bother with a LDS talk forum?

Hill Cumorah was not the battle field.  No weapons to find.  Moroni didn't bury the plates for another 20 years after that "final" battle.

I love many mormon people. My entire extended family are mormon. I love them all. I am ethnically mormon. I am very interested in mormonsism.

Bizbra,

I have a book that you might be interested in reading. I won't tell you much here, so PM me, if you are interested.

Now don't think me foolish, but this last post of yours I could really hear your heart and spirit. :)

[srm]

The problem, Antishock, is that you don't admit anything when someone calls you on your errors. You cut and pasted a long post from deconstructor. when we start to address the issues there you ignore it. It seems that you are not interested in answers rather you stir up issues that have valid answers yet when someone addresses you you just move on and carpetbomb somewhere else. You may not be an 'anti-mormon' but you are using some of their tactics. In fact I pointed out a major error in this thread and you just past it over and plowed on without admiting anything. There are other problems with your theories here but why address them for someone who doesn't want to listen or discuss. If I do, you'll just move on to something else. Your methods are transparent.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by bizabra+Jan 14 2004, 09:26 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (bizabra @ Jan 14 2004, 09:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Peace@Jan 14 2004, 09:22 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--Behunin@Jan 14 2004, 05:17 AM

Peace,

Your sacred experiences are wasted on some people on this board.  Which makes me wonder again: What is their intent? 

For people who can't stand LDS people, why do they bother with a LDS talk forum?

It sure does make you wonder. My own personal opinion is this: They can leave the church, but they can't leave it alone....why? because the same spirit of contention that caused them to lose their testimonies...drives them to persecute the saints.

After all it was X-mos that murdered JS.

Peace, please read my posts in "General". They are under the topic BIZ now. Why don't you TRY to see things from other peoples POV once in a while? I would never consider myself to be "anti mormon".

BTW, you are wrong about who killed JS. The mob was not comprised of ex members.

Actually, I read a book which outlined the 'instagators' of the mob and they wer high ranking Xmos.

[Guest curvette]

I'm surprised that no one on this thread has mentioned this:

In the Journal of Discourses published by the LDS Church, Brigham Young related:

Brigham Young, on June 17, 1877, related the following: "I lived right in the country where the plates were found from which the Book of Mormon was translated, and I know a great many things pertaining to that country. I believe I will take the liberty to tell you of another circumstance that will be as marvelous as anything can be. This is an incident in the life of Oliver Cowdery, that he did not take the liberty of telling such things in meeting as I take.

"I tell these things to you, and I have a motive for doing so. I want to carry them to the ears of my brethren and sisters, and to the children also, that they may grow to an understanding of some things that seem to be entirely hidden from the human family. Oliver Cowdery went with the Prophet Joseph when he deposited these plates. Joseph did not translated all of the plates; there was a portion of them sealed, which you can learn from the Book of Doctrine and Covenants. When Joseph got the plates, the angel instructed him to carry them back to the Hill Cumorah, which he did.

"Oliver says that when Joseph and Oliver went there, the hill opened, and they walked into a cave, in which there was a large and spacious room. He says he did not think, at the time, whether they had the light of the sun or artificial light, but that it was just as light as day. They laid the plates on a table; it was a large table that stood in the room. Under this table there was a pile of plates as much as two feet high, and there were altogether in this room more plates than probably many wagon loads; they were piled up in corners and along the walls.

"The first time they went there the SWORD OF LABAN hung upon the wall; but when they went again it had been taken down and laid upon the table across the gold plates; it was unsheathed, and on it was written these words: 'This sword will never be sheathed again until the kingdoms of this world become the kingdom of our God and his Christ." I tell you this is coming not only from Oliver Cowdery, but others who were familiar with it, and who understood it... I take the liberty of referring to those things so they will not be forgotten and lost." (19 Journal of Discourses 38)

Of course this is hearsay repeated by Brigham Young (I'd be more convinced of a direct quote from Oliver Cowdery.) Also, not that I necessarily believe this, but maybe the word "Cumorah" means "things that are hidden" or some such thing and not necessarily a specific location.

[srm]

Originally posted by curvette@Jan 15 2004, 10:13 AM

I'm surprised that no one on this thread has mentioned this:

In the Journal of Discourses published by the LDS Church, Brigham Young related:

Brigham Young, on June 17, 1877, related the following: "I lived right in the country where the plates were found from which the Book of Mormon was translated, and I know a great many things pertaining to that country. I believe I will take the liberty to tell you of another circumstance that will be as marvelous as anything can be. This is an incident in the life of Oliver Cowdery, that he did not take the liberty of telling such things in meeting as I take.

"I tell these things to you, and I have a motive for doing so. I want to carry them to the ears of my brethren and sisters, and to the children also, that they may grow to an understanding of some things that seem to be entirely hidden from the human family. Oliver Cowdery went with the Prophet Joseph when he deposited these plates. Joseph did not translated all of the plates; there was a portion of them sealed, which you can learn from the Book of Doctrine and Covenants. When Joseph got the plates, the angel instructed him to carry them back to the Hill Cumorah, which he did.

"Oliver says that when Joseph and Oliver went there, the hill opened, and they walked into a cave, in which there was a large and spacious room. He says he did not think, at the time, whether they had the light of the sun or artificial light, but that it was just as light as day. They laid the plates on a table; it was a large table that stood in the room. Under this table there was a pile of plates as much as two feet high, and there were altogether in this room more plates than probably many wagon loads; they were piled up in corners and along the walls.

"The first time they went there the SWORD OF LABAN hung upon the wall; but when they went again it had been taken down and laid upon the table across the gold plates; it was unsheathed, and on it was written these words: 'This sword will never be sheathed again until the kingdoms of this world become the kingdom of our God and his Christ." I tell you this is coming not only from Oliver Cowdery, but others who were familiar with it, and who understood it... I take the liberty of referring to those things so they will not be forgotten and lost." (19 Journal of Discourses 38)

Of course this is hearsay repeated by Brigham Young (I'd be more convinced of a direct quote from Oliver Cowdery.) Also, not that I necessarily believe this, but maybe the word "Cumorah" means "things that are hidden" or some such thing and not necessarily a specific location.

If I recall Heber C. Kimball gives the account too. He says that it was a vision of the cave. which is right? we dunno.

[Guest Starsky]

Wow Curvette! That is awesome...Thanks!

[Guest antishock82003]

Originally posted by Paul Osborne@Jan 14 2004, 07:20 PM

Cal,

The Church is not based upon facts that must be proven true to the world. Also, I would much rather have you think I am gullible than deny the witness I have received from God.

Paul O

That's funny. Then why does BYU fund FARMS? ANSWER: The Church wants to PROVE the Book of Mormon True. The Church is desperate to find anything that would corroborate the BoM's credibility. Which brings me back to the topic of this thread...they could have all the credibility in the world if they (and FARMS) would just bust out some shovels and go to the spot where Joseph Smith said the Great and Final Battle took place...at the Hill Cumorah, NY.

[Guest antishock82003]

Originally posted by Peace@Jan 14 2004, 07:51 PM

Aren't you being just a bit too concerned about us in your own blinded state of being? LOL

There may be differences of teachings on such things...but if they served those men to make them closer to the Lord...then it served it's purpose.

Consider the difference between 'laws and principles' where applications can cause the shallow thinker to believe there has been a lost doctrine....

On this same premis, but working with 'useless' understandings...as far as salvation goes....some will gain one positive confirmation about the 'hill' and it's location and another will receive a confirmation on a different location because it works for them.

Does this make them both wrong? No...consider their prayers or desires which would work for God's purpose and work for them....Remember Moses 1: 39

For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and deternal life of man.

What builds faith...works for God's desired end result for man. If what they believe makes them better and stronger spiritually fueled men...that is what God will employ.

When you discuss non-essential knowledge...in the sense of is it absolute...can it be proven physically, you are talking about a level that isn't necessary for building faith.

Yet is you truly want all of this knowledge you claim to want...are you willing to do what it takes to get it?

1) Who's to say that I'm not the one that can see clearly and you're the one that is blinded. After all, you're the one that belongs to a very minor sub-sect of xtianity that is pretty irrelevant outside the Corridor. There's 1 billion Muslims...maybe they're on to something...maybe THEY see clearly? I personally think it's an issue of perspective...

2) "There may be differences of teachings on such things...but if they served those men to make them closer to the Lord...then it served it's purpose." I think that is a very dangerous mindset. Essentially you're saying if a falsehood gets a person closer to your god, then the falsehood served a greater purpose. Either something is right or it is not...it's either True or it isn't...unless you're a relativist...if so, then why are we even talking?

3) I think you're just covering your bases. You're like, "Well, whatever works as long as it builds faith in God is a-ok with me." I just disagree with your assessment.

4) Finally, I served a mission, was married in the temple, born and raised in the Church, seminary graduate...so I'm very well acquainted with "doing what it takes to get it". And I got it. I came to the conclusion that what you're offering is a panacea...and it's based on internal desires...based on fabrications by the Church both past and present.

[Guest antishock82003]

Originally posted by srm@Jan 15 2004, 09:10 AM

The problem, Antishock, is that you don't admit anything when someone calls you on your errors. You cut and pasted a long post from deconstructor. when we start to address the issues there you ignore it. It seems that you are not interested in answers rather you stir up issues that have valid answers yet when someone addresses you you just move on and carpetbomb somewhere else. You may not be an 'anti-mormon' but you are using some of their tactics. In fact I pointed out a major error in this thread and you just past it over and plowed on without admiting anything. There are other problems with your theories here but why address them for someone who doesn't want to listen or discuss. If I do, you'll just move on to something else. Your methods are transparent.

That's not true. I was wrong when I thought the Mods did B) to one of my posts, and I admitted it. So you're wrong.

SRM,

Ad Hominem.

Sincerely,

AS8

[Guest antishock82003]

Originally posted by srm+Jan 15 2004, 10:47 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (srm @ Jan 15 2004, 10:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--curvette@Jan 15 2004, 10:13 AM

I'm surprised that no one on this thread has mentioned this:

In the Journal of Discourses published by the LDS Church, Brigham Young related:

Brigham Young, on June 17, 1877, related the following: "I lived right in the country where the plates were found from which the Book of Mormon was translated, and I know a great many things pertaining to that country. I believe I will take the liberty to tell you of another circumstance that will be as marvelous as anything can be. This is an incident in the life of Oliver Cowdery, that he did not take the liberty of telling such things in meeting as I take.

"I tell these things to you, and I have a motive for doing so. I want to carry them to the ears of my brethren and sisters, and to the children also, that they may grow to an understanding of some things that seem to be entirely hidden from the human family. Oliver Cowdery went with the Prophet Joseph when he deposited these plates. Joseph did not translated all of the plates; there was a portion of them sealed, which you can learn from the Book of Doctrine and Covenants. When Joseph got the plates, the angel instructed him to carry them back to the Hill Cumorah, which he did.

"Oliver says that when Joseph and Oliver went there, the hill opened, and they walked into a cave, in which there was a large and spacious room. He says he did not think, at the time, whether they had the light of the sun or artificial light, but that it was just as light as day. They laid the plates on a table; it was a large table that stood in the room. Under this table there was a pile of plates as much as two feet high, and there were altogether in this room more plates than probably many wagon loads; they were piled up in corners and along the walls.

"The first time they went there the SWORD OF LABAN hung upon the wall; but when they went again it had been taken down and laid upon the table across the gold plates; it was unsheathed, and on it was written these words: 'This sword will never be sheathed again until the kingdoms of this world become the kingdom of our God and his Christ." I tell you this is coming not only from Oliver Cowdery, but others who were familiar with it, and who understood it... I take the liberty of referring to those things so they will not be forgotten and lost." (19 Journal of Discourses 38)

Of course this is hearsay repeated by Brigham Young (I'd be more convinced of a direct quote from Oliver Cowdery.)  Also, not that I necessarily believe this, but maybe the word "Cumorah" means "things that are hidden" or some such thing and not necessarily a specific location.

If I recall Heber C. Kimball gives the account too. He says that it was a vision of the cave. which is right? we dunno.

Yes. That's right. The Journal of Discourses, printed by the Church, filled with an account proffered by BY, is just something to be brushed off. Gee. I wonder why!?!

SRM,

Do you believe the Church when It says the Hill Cumorah is located in NY?

[AFDaw]

Originally posted by antishock82003@Jan 15 2004, 04:46 PM

1) Who's to say that I'm not the one that can see clearly and you're the one that is blinded.  After all, you're the one that belongs to a very minor sub-sect of xtianity that is pretty irrelevant outside the Corridor.  There's 1 billion Muslims...maybe they're on to something...maybe THEY see clearly?  I personally think it's an issue of perspective...

The Muslim Empire...there's something to be proud of. Let's see, how old are they? Probably one of the oldest around, yet there's no democracy, no advancement, no money. America is a VERY young nation, yet we're a Christian nation and look at where we are. Look at where we've come from. Wouldn't it be feasible to say that we are a blessed nation BECAUSE we are a Christian nation?

Quality AS, not Quantity.

I'll take my chances with this one :)

[Paul Osborne]

Originally posted by antishock82003+Jan 15 2004, 04:38 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (antishock82003 @ Jan 15 2004, 04:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Paul Osborne@Jan 14 2004, 07:20 PM

Cal,

The Church is not based upon facts that must be proven true to the world. Also, I would much rather have you think I am gullible than deny the witness I have received from God.

Paul O

That's funny. Then why does BYU fund FARMS? ANSWER: The Church wants to PROVE the Book of Mormon True. The Church is desperate to find anything that would corroborate the BoM's credibility. Which brings me back to the topic of this thread...they could have all the credibility in the world if they (and FARMS) would just bust out some shovels and go to the spot where Joseph Smith said the Great and Final Battle took place...at the Hill Cumorah, NY.

Antishock,

I don’t give a rat's ___ who in the Church would like to see the BofM proven true archeologically. This proof is neither required and the “Church” is not desperate at all. It just may be that the sign you so want, Antishock, will not be given until it is too late and you will be very sorry. The treasures of Cumorah will come forth in the Lord’s own due time and not by the howls or complaints of the antis or faithless saints.

The Church is true and Jesus is the Christ.

Paul O

[Guest antishock82003]

Originally posted by AFDaw+Jan 15 2004, 05:22 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (AFDaw @ Jan 15 2004, 05:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--antishock82003@Jan 15 2004, 04:46 PM

1) Who's to say that I'm not the one that can see clearly and you're the one that is blinded.  After all, you're the one that belongs to a very minor sub-sect of xtianity that is pretty irrelevant outside the Corridor.  There's 1 billion Muslims...maybe they're on to something...maybe THEY see clearly?  I personally think it's an issue of perspective...

The Muslim Empire...there's something to be proud of. Let's see, how old are they? Probably one of the oldest around, yet there's no democracy, no advancement, no money. America is a VERY young nation, yet we're a Christian nation and look at where we are. Look at where we've come from. Wouldn't it be feasible to say that we are a blessed nation BECAUSE we are a Christian nation?

Quality AS, not Quantity.

I'll take my chances with this one :)

Without the Muslims' oil, and their algebra we wouldn't even be talking right now. The point is that there a lot of them. There are a few of you. Maybe they see clearly. Maybe you don't. It's perspective. Maybe the Baptists see clearly, or the Hindus. BTW, there a very, very, very rich Muslim nations...more so per capita than us...by a long shot. Let's not get side tracked though...do you have a thought regarding the first post of this thread?

[Guest antishock82003]

Originally posted by Paul Osborne+Jan 15 2004, 07:05 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Paul Osborne @ Jan 15 2004, 07:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -antishock82003@Jan 15 2004, 04:38 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Paul Osborne@Jan 14 2004, 07:20 PM

Cal,

The Church is not based upon facts that must be proven true to the world. Also, I would much rather have you think I am gullible than deny the witness I have received from God.

Paul O

That's funny. Then why does BYU fund FARMS? ANSWER: The Church wants to PROVE the Book of Mormon True. The Church is desperate to find anything that would corroborate the BoM's credibility. Which brings me back to the topic of this thread...they could have all the credibility in the world if they (and FARMS) would just bust out some shovels and go to the spot where Joseph Smith said the Great and Final Battle took place...at the Hill Cumorah, NY.

Antishock,

I don’t give a rat's ___ who in the Church would like to see the BofM proven true archeologically. This proof is neither required and the “Church” is not desperate at all. It just may be that the sign you so want, Antishock, will not be given until it is too late and you will be very sorry. The treasures of Cumorah will come forth in the Lord’s own due time and not by the howls or complaints of the antis or faithless saints.

The Church is true and Jesus is the Christ.

Paul O

The "faithless" saints that you decry are none other than the First Presidency. They fund FARMS.

Curious. Do you think if we were to excavate the Hill Cumorah we'd find anything?

[AFDaw]

Originally posted by antishock82003@Jan 15 2004, 07:30 PM

Without the Muslims' oil, and their algebra we wouldn't even be talking right now. The point is that there a lot of them. There are a few of you. Maybe they see clearly. Maybe you don't. It's perspective. Maybe the Baptists see clearly, or the Hindus. BTW, there a very, very, very rich Muslim nations...more so per capita than us...by a long shot. Let's not get side tracked though...do you have a thought regarding the first post of this thread?

This entire statement is so wrong it's not even funny. First off, the 3 richest Arabic countries have a far lower GDP per capita than the US. (Qatar being the closest with $22,468 compared to the US's $36,731) And I wouldn't go as far as to say the Muslim countries are rich...but rather the Royalty IN the Muslim countries are rich. And I wasn't the one getting side tracked. I replied to your comment about the Muslims obviously having something special because there were millions of them compared to our small measly numbers. I was stating that quantity isn't everything, hence why we are a BLESSED nation despite having smaller numbers. Notice I was replying to YOUR statements...so maybe you should be asking if YOU have a thought regarding the first post of this thread instead of making up "facts" that aren't even true.

[srm]

Originally posted by antishock82003+Jan 15 2004, 04:50 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (antishock82003 @ Jan 15 2004, 04:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--srm@Jan 15 2004, 09:10 AM

The problem, Antishock, is that you don't admit anything when someone calls you on your errors.  You cut and pasted a long post from deconstructor.  when we start to address the issues there you ignore it.  It seems that you are not interested in answers rather you stir up issues that have valid answers yet when someone addresses you you just move on and carpetbomb somewhere else.  You may not be an 'anti-mormon' but you are using some of their tactics.  In fact I pointed out a major error in this thread and you just past it over and plowed on without admiting anything.  There are other problems with your theories here but why address them for someone who doesn't want to listen or discuss.  If I do, you'll just move on to something else.  Your methods are transparent.

That's not true. I was wrong when I thought the Mods did B) to one of my posts, and I admitted it. So you're wrong.

SRM,

Ad Hominem.

Sincerely,

AS8

There are some really interesting things to discuss in this thread but I wonder if it is worth ir if you are just gonna skip away to other things. Why won't you address the james mohalland issue or the other ones on that thread? If I do bring up some issues regarding the Hill Cumorah, will you stick around and discuss them? If not, why should i spend my time?

[Guest LDS3EVER]

Back on topic:

[Paul Osborne]

Antishock,

I don’t have a problem with the “Church” funding FARMS. You apparently do. I believe the first Presidency has confidence that those scholarly members will work on trying to be more faithful and at the same time sharpen their archeological skills. BYU is a first rate school and it is my understanding that the school is generally respected worldwide except for their apologetic position on the Book of Abraham in which they are worldwide laughing stocks.

I don’t think the Lord will allow the treasures to be unearthed until after the saints are fully tested. It is my preference that excavation will not take place. One must receive a testimony of the BofM by faith and confirmation of the Holy Ghost. That is how the Lord has put this whole program together and the BofM has made it clear that this is how it would be in the last days. If treasures of proof were unearthed, this would upset the manner in which one must receive a testimony as outlined by the BofM and that would in itself discredit the prophecy of how the BofM would be received in the last days.

Paul O

[Guest antishock82003]

Originally posted by AFDaw+Jan 15 2004, 08:31 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (AFDaw @ Jan 15 2004, 08:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--antishock82003@Jan 15 2004, 07:30 PM

Without the Muslims' oil, and their algebra we wouldn't even be talking right now.  The point is that there a lot of them.  There are a few of you.  Maybe they see clearly.  Maybe you don't.  It's perspective.  Maybe the Baptists see clearly, or the Hindus.  BTW, there a very, very, very rich Muslim nations...more so per capita than us...by a long shot.  Let's not get side tracked though...do you have a thought regarding the first post of this thread?

This entire statement is so wrong it's not even funny. First off, the 3 richest Arabic countries have a far lower GDP per capita than the US. (Qatar being the closest with $22,468 compared to the US's $36,731) And I wouldn't go as far as to say the Muslim countries are rich...but rather the Royalty IN the Muslim countries are rich. And I wasn't the one getting side tracked. I replied to your comment about the Muslims obviously having something special because there were millions of them compared to our small measly numbers. I was stating that quantity isn't everything, hence why we are a BLESSED nation despite having smaller numbers. Notice I was replying to YOUR statements...so maybe you should be asking if YOU have a thought regarding the first post of this thread instead of making up "facts" that aren't even true.

If you want to get into a tit for tat regaring Muslim/Mormon comparisons...I'd be more than happy. Kuwait for example has so few people below the poverty line that it's recorded as N/A in the CIA world fact book. Kuwait's labor force is 80% foreign...which tells me that these Muslims MUST be doing something right in God's eyes to allow them have it so gooood. They don't pay for medical care. They don't pay for college. They're really wealthy. By god...God must love these people to death! Maybe the Kuwaitis see clearly, and we don't! Don't be silly. Don't try to justify a silly statement with abstract comments like you've provided...because both are silly. The idea that you're promoting is what is the same one the Ottoman's held, the same one the Zionists have, and the same one that Hitler had....God likes us bestest, we're special, and we can then do what we want to do. Bosh! Anyways, let's not get distracted on tangents...if you want to take this discussion further we can...just on another thread....

Do you have any thoughts regarding the first post on this thread?

[Guest antishock82003]

Originally posted by Paul Osborne@Jan 15 2004, 09:34 PM

Antishock,

I don’t have a problem with the “Church” funding FARMS. You apparently do. I believe the first Presidency has confidence that those scholarly members will work on trying to be more faithful and at the same time sharpen their archeological skills. BYU is a first rate school and it is my understanding that the school is generally respected worldwide except for their apologetic position on the Book of Abraham in which they are worldwide laughing stocks.

I don’t think the Lord will allow the treasures to be unearthed until after the saints are fully tested. It is my preference that excavation will not take place. One must receive a testimony of the BofM by faith and confirmation of the Holy Ghost. That is how the Lord has put this whole program together and the BofM has made it clear that this is how it would be in the last days. If treasures of proof were unearthed, this would upset the manner in which one must receive a testimony as outlined by the BofM and that would in itself discredit the prophecy of how the BofM would be received in the last days.

Paul O

I don't have a "problem" with it. I'm not giving the Church any money. I really don't care. I just wanted you to be aware that FARMS is funded by BYU, which in turn is supported by the Church. You gave me the impression that the Church isn't actively trying to PROVE the BoM True when in reality it's desperately doing the opposite. See: 'FARMS' 'epic' 'milieu' @ google If that ain't desperate...then I just don't know what is...

Which brings me back to the idea that if the Church is trying to PROVE or provide PROOFS (again see: 'FARMS' 'epic' 'milieu' @ google) of the BoM's veracity I'd think that the Hill Cumorah would be the perfect place to start.

BTW, Paul, if the Church wasn't keen on proving anything, don't you think we would've avoided the whole BoA mess in the first place? Oops...not gonna get side-tracked on that issue...especially with you .

[AFDaw]

*sigh*

Antishock, I see my post completely went over your head. I wasn't comparing Mormon/Muslims, I wasn't talking about Kuwait. (Let's see...that takes up half of your reply that was completely useless) God likes us bestest. Yes...that's what I said isn't it? I believe I merely stated that America is a BLESSED nation, and it SHOWS. How that is considered silly is beyond me. Then you want to ask me if I have a thought on the first topic?! I WAS REPLYING TO WHAT YOU SAID!!!! Don't ask me if I have a thought in reference to the first topic if...

1) You brought up something that doesn't relate to it

2) You're going to continue to discuss it with me

[Spencer]

Not much more can be said about this that i can tell.

If Hill Cumorah is not where we believe it to be, so what doesnt change anything.

if you want to continue discussing some of the sub topics of this discussion please start another thread.

Spencer