Interpretation Of Witnesses Of The Spirit

[jwhitlock]

One of the topics we talked about in Sunday School class today was testimony and how it is received and applied by members of the Church.

In short, it appears that one of the biggest mistakes people make in the receipt and interpretation of a testimony is applying it too broadly to concepts that the testimony is not meant to apply to.

For example, one may receive a testimony that President Hinckley is a prophet of God. The person receiving the testimony may then mistakenly assume, then, that everything President Hinckley says is inspired, prophetic truth.

The danger in this particular example is, of course, that when President Hinckley makes a mistake, the person may start to question the original witness of the Spirit concerning the prophetic calling of President Hinckley.

Critics of the Church understand this phenomenon and take advantage of it many times in their attacks.

Perhaps in the joy of receiving a witness, people are far too prone to apply that witness to things it was not meant to apply to. Is this a big problem in the Church?

[mnn727]

Perhaps in the joy of receiving a witness, people are far too prone to apply that witness to things it was not meant to apply to. Is this a big problem in the Church?

I think for some people in the Church it is, unfortunatly we have people on F&T Sunday that will get up and talk about God helping them find their car keys, pass a test, or avoid an accident. Perhaps its just me but I really don't believe God interferes in human affairs enough to help someone find their car keys, but not enough to prevent people from taking out the 'plain and precious truths' from His word - just doesn't make sense to me.

[HiJolly]

One of the topics we talked about in Sunday School class today was testimony and how it is received and applied by members of the Church.

In short, it appears that one of the biggest mistakes people make in the receipt and interpretation of a testimony is applying it too broadly to concepts that the testimony is not meant to apply to.

Yes, that has been my experience.

HiJolly

[jwhitlock]

I think for some people in the Church it is, unfortunatly we have people on F&T Sunday that will get up and talk about God helping them find their car keys, pass a test, or avoid an accident. Perhaps its just me but I really don't believe God interferes in human affairs enough to help someone find their car keys, but not enough to prevent people from taking out the 'plain and precious truths' from His word - just doesn't make sense to me.

The Spirit operates on its own agenda, not ours. And by small and simple things are great things brought to pass.

In many cases, the workings of the Spirit are meant to give the receiver something to ponder and to struggle with to understand. In struggling, sometimes that understanding takes some false turns. And sometimes, the witness of the Spirit about what is true is outright blatantly misapplied for inappropriate purposes - like in some Mormon marketing schemes.

You do hit upon a good point. It is difficult, if not impossible, sometimes to make sense of the way the Lord is letting things unfold, or if He is even guiding them. In trying to make sense of them, we sometimes draw some false conclusions about our experiences with the Spirit and get into trouble.

For example, I may be a full tithe payer and then I hit upon hard times. I read and understand the promises concerning the blessings that come from tithing and because I know those promises are true, I make the assumption that they will be applied in very understandable ways in my life. However, if I don't receive the blessing I expect, it may be that my testimony is challenged. The mistake I have perhaps made, is that I have not understood the will of the Lord in this particular situation. It may be that He thinks that I am ready for a deeper challenge that leads to greater understanding and progress - but that challenge can only be triggered by further divesting myself of material things. There may be a variety of other reasons that the assumption I make about how the witness is applied does not come to pass.

I suspect that the witnesses we receive usually full of hidden meaning and should not be applied to broadly without first gaining additional understanding as to their scope from the Lord. Perhaps too many of us receive a "the Church is true" witness, and assume that it is enough, when in reality it is only a start.

[avatar4321]

I think this can be a problem sometimes. I think this especially happens in dating.

I know I've been inspired to ask girls out before. One in particular I felt I should ask out even though I really wasnt that into her. I did and we ended up doubling with my roomate. Within the next 8 months my roomate and her were married.

I think sometimes people want to read things into the inspiration that are not there. They add their own emotional desire into it so when the Lord is like hey do this or hey go out with this person some people will jump to the conclusion that this must be their one and only. (despite the fact that we are told there isnt a one and only). Usually when this happens, things dont end pretty.

From experience I think its best to discern what the Lord is really telling us and have faith to just accept what happens when we follow it. Sometimes the Lord is telling us people need to be in our lives so we or they or likely both can learn something.

Thats just my two cents.

[Guest moreholinessgiveme]

One of the topics we talked about in Sunday School class today was testimony and how it is received and applied by members of the Church.

In short, it appears that one of the biggest mistakes people make in the receipt and interpretation of a testimony is applying it too broadly to concepts that the testimony is not meant to apply to.

For example, one may receive a testimony that President Hinckley is a prophet of God. The person receiving the testimony may then mistakenly assume, then, that everything President Hinckley says is inspired, prophetic truth.

The danger in this particular example is, of course, that when President Hinckley makes a mistake, the person may start to question the original witness of the Spirit concerning the prophetic calling of President Hinckley.

Critics of the Church understand this phenomenon and take advantage of it many times in their attacks.

Perhaps in the joy of receiving a witness, people are far too prone to apply that witness to things it was not meant to apply to. Is this a big problem in the Church?

I think the problems begin when we take personal revelation and seek to teach it as public doctrine.

Not all of what the Lord reveals to us is for public consumption. In fact, most personal revelation is just that - personal.

Alma 12 gives us some important guidance concerning revelation:

9 And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him.

10 And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.

"only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men" -- Generally, this is what is commonly had in the scriptures and what is taught in General Conference or in Sacrament Meeting. This much we can freely discuss and talk about.

The other side of the coin is personal revelation. Questions that we have about doctrine that the Brethren or scriptures have NOT revealed and is not commonly had among the Saints. We CAN receive answers to these doctrinal questions, but we are "laid under a strict command that [[we]] shall not impart" -- because what is revealed unto us is NOT "according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men" -- it is not commonly had among the general population of the Church. It is private and personal. For our own edification -- not to impress others or give us permission to go off and start our own religion.

[Deborah]

I think for some people in the Church it is, unfortunatly we have people on F&T Sunday that will get up and talk about God helping them find their car keys, pass a test, or avoid an accident. Perhaps its just me but I really don't believe God interferes in human affairs enough to help someone find their car keys, but not enough to prevent people from taking out the 'plain and precious truths' from His word - just doesn't make sense to me.

Funny you should mention this because I have had some of these things happen and I know they were answers to prayers. I could tell some amazing stories. Sometimes God works in little insignificant ways to let us know yes he is still there and still cares. Some of these little answers to prayers have been when I felt extremely alone and wondered if God cared. When he would answer a simple little prayer I knew he was still there and I would get through whatever greater trial I was going through. I do not however, discuss these things in F&T meeting because they were personal revelations and sacred experiences. I have had occasions where I felt to share them with others. But I do know without a doubt God is concerned and cares and does manifest in some of these little human affairs so that we will hold on and know that he is hearing our prayers on the more important matters but this is something we need to endure a little longer.

I feel that I should relate one little such incident as an illustration, and it is only one. I had been going through an extremely difficult time in my life with a child custody battle and poverty and my car being wrecked and trial upon trial. It was getting cold and my son had come into my room and opened up my bedroom window to yell out to a friend. This window had a problem getting stuck so I never opened it. Well I tried to close it this time. I had my son try to close it and he hammered it and we both pushed on it and it would not budge. I was in tears. I sent my son out, got down on my knees and told Heavenly Father that I wondered if he cared and that I couldn't make it and I didn't know what I was going to do and now I was going to get pneumonia because I couldn't get the window closed and if he really cared he would help me shut the window. I got up from that prayer merely put my hand on the window and it immediately shut with no effort on my part. I knew then that God was truly listening and that he did care and I would get through this time of trial. Now please don't tell me God doesn't answer such simple requests. I know he does, and that was just one minor little example.

[Kate]

Funny you should mention this because I have had some of these things happen and I know they were answers to prayers. I could tell some amazing stories. Sometimes God works in little insignificant ways to let us know yes he is still there and still cares. Some of these little answers to prayers have been when I felt extremely alone and wondered if God cared. When he would answer a simple little prayer I knew he was still there and I would get through whatever greater trial I was going through. I do not however, discuss these things in F&T meeting because they were personal revelations and sacred experiences. I have had occasions where I felt to share them with others. But I do know without a doubt God is concerned and cares and does manifest in some of these little human affairs so that we will hold on and know that he is hearing our prayers on the more important matters but this is something we need to endure a little longer.

I feel that I should relate one little such incident as an illustration, and it is only one. I had been going through an extremely difficult time in my life with a child custody battle and poverty and my car being wrecked and trial upon trial. It was getting cold and my son had come into my room and opened up my bedroom window to yell out to a friend. This window had a problem getting stuck so I never opened it. Well I tried to close it this time. I had my son try to close it and he hammered it and we both pushed on it and it would not budge. I was in tears. I sent my son out, got down on my knees and told Heavenly Father that I wondered if he cared and that I couldn't make it and I didn't know what I was going to do and now I was going to get pneumonia because I couldn't get the window closed and if he really cared he would help me shut the window. I got up from that prayer merely put my hand on the window and it immediately shut with no effort on my part. I knew then that God was truly listening and that he did care and I would get through this time of trial. Now please don't tell me God doesn't answer such simple requests. I know he does, and that was just one minor little example.

Thank you for sharing that! I, too, have had many experiences like this and of course, the spirit guides as to when to share them. I personally believe that these things come by the power of faith. Faith is more than some people understand. And I truly believe, by personal experience, that he does manifest himself in small and simple things in our lives. To some, the window experience may seem like a small thing, but really, it wasn't. What a powerful testimony builder! That is what I treasure, is how much my faith grows with each of these types of experiences.

~Kate

[charity]

Deborah, I, too have been shown the Father's love and care in very small, but signifcant events, too.

I think the OP is correct. We do tend to overgeneralize. And many people do go through challenges to their testimonies because of this.

[Garden Girl]

Deborah... I agree wholeheartedly based on my own experience... and many answers to prayers, particularly for small things...

As a widow, alone, I no longer have my hubby to help me, so I lean greatly on my faith and Heavenly Father through prayer.

I'll share one from yesterday morning... my Charlie-cat and I have a morning routine where he gets me up about 6:30 A.M. I give him food and put him out. In a few minutes he is at the door wanting in again. I let him in, give him another bit of food and he goes out again. Lately, he has been staying out this second time for longer periods, up to 2 hours or a little more... Yesterday morning I was getting ready to go to the Temple... and wanted to leave by 8:30. I also wanted to close up the house and not leave his door open because many times it's dark before I get home and Charlie has to be in before dark because of the critters like racoons, coyotes, etc. So at 7:00 a.m. when he wanted to go out again, against my better judgment, and because I knew he'd be in all day, I let him out, counting that he'd come in again before 8:30 a.m. I went about getting ready and opened the sliding door of my bedroom so if he came in I'd see him and close the door. Time went by and no Charlie... 8:30 was fast approaching... so I started to pray... apologizing for praying for something so small as to have Charlie come in, but it was important to me to be able to go away without having to worry about him... to know he was safe inside... so I prayed, really prayed... after I prayed it wasn't a minute until Charlie came bounding in the door. I thanked Heavenly Father, ran and closed the door, swept Charlie up and hugged him and gave him special treats... finished dressing and left home with a calm heart that all was well. Now some may say this is coincidence, but knowing my prayer, I do not believe it was. And when I was in the temple I was grateful for the peace of my heart so I could be fully in tune with the Spirit in the House of the Lord.

The Garden Girl

[bunnzy]

I've been reading through this and was reminded of my mother-in-laws recent spiritual 'experience'. She was diagnosed with type 2 diabetes, and went on to go to many different doctors, trying all sorts of natural therpaies, completely changing her diet, and excersising nearly everyday. She became much healthier, but also spent a fortune on gimmicks and quick-fixes.

As a good church member, she also went to the temple, fasted and prayed about what to do in her condition. She opened the scriptures in the celestial room to the Word of Wisdom in the Doctrine and covenenants (section 89). She thought 'i already know this! but she went ahead a read it anyway. It says something in there about all grains being for the good of man. And she took it at face value, and has included whole grains (mainly going on about wheats many benefits) in pretty much every meal since then.

That, however is not what i have a problem with, my problem is that she goes and preaches it in sacrament meetings, releif society meetings, and talking to people at church in general. It is common sense, i thought, but she is taking it over the top. One kind sister in her new ward (she is no longer in my ward, thank goodness) asked her to please think about what she is saying, and how can someone who is gluten intolerant or who has cealic disease eat wheat? MIL was so wrapped up in her own 'revelation' that she just answered by saying that true whole wheat has hardly any gluten and that they could eat it if they wanted to (now thats typical ignorance on my MILs part)

I am not hitting on people who eat whole grains by the way, i store and use whole wheat regularly myself. The point of the story is how people can take an individual experience and think it is right and applies to everyone, and it doesnt. (i gt a bit passionate about this, i dont really like my MIL)

[Deborah]

The point of the story is how people can take an individual experience and think it is right and applies to everyone, and it doesnt.

You are absolutely right and this is how people get in trouble by thinking their personal revelation is something they somehow should teach to everyone. Only the prophet and the Apostles have authority to teach to the whole church. I don't understand why so many forget this point. Many apostates are those who take their personal "revelation" and try to teach it to others and even oppose the church forgetting how far their authority goes; they usually get hung up on one point of the gospel forgetting the big picture and thereby lose the benefit of the whole.

[Guest Iggy]

You are absolutely right and this is how people get in trouble by thinking their personal revelation is something they somehow should teach to everyone. Only the prophet and the Apostles have authority to teach to the whole church. I don't understand why so many forget this point. Many apostates are those who take their personal "revelation" and try to teach it to others and even oppose the church forgetting how far their authority goes; they usually get hung up on one point of the gospel forgetting the big picture and thereby lose the benefit of the whole.

Also on the other side of that coin is when they forget that their personal revelation needs to measure up to the doctrine of the church, then it isn't revelation given by Father. Am I saying this right?? Personal revelation must follow the doctrines of the Church, not oppose it, or circumvent it.

[Deborah]

Personal revelation must follow the doctrines of the Church, not oppose it, or circumvent it.

Right. If your "personal revelation" is contrary to what the current prophet is telling us then you need to look at the source of that revelation. The spirit will not tell you something contrary to what is doctrine.