Book of Mormon Reading Group: 18 Sep - 24 Sep 2023 (1 Nephi 19 - 2 Nephi 9)

[askandanswer]

11 hours ago, zil2 said:

This is flat-out false.  Scriptures clearly teach that without Christ, we would be subject to the devil forever.  He redeems us.  We cannot save ourselves.

We agree that Christ redeems us and that we cannot save ourselves. Perhaps we might also agree that as we continue to make more righteous choices and fewer wrong choices, we eventually reach a point where the Devil no longer has power over us and we have thereby saved ourselves from him. 

[Jamie123]

11 hours ago, zil2 said:

Jesus Christ saves.  We build faith in Christ, that Christ, because of his atonement, has the power and right to save us.

As a Protestant, that is exactly my own position. I would add though that when a person accepts Christ's atonement, they begin to become more like Christ, and do good works. That might create the illusion that they are earning their salvation by doing those good works, but it is the other way round. The state of grace in which they do those good works IS the beginning of salvation, and that was 100% earned for them by Christ.

[zil2]

1 hour ago, askandanswer said:

We agree that Christ redeems us and that we cannot save ourselves. Perhaps we might also agree that as we continue to make more righteous choices and fewer wrong choices, we eventually reach a point where the Devil no longer has power over us and we have thereby saved ourselves from him. 

I know it looks and seems like this, but I submit that we cannot make righteous choices, let alone continue to make more right choices and fewer wrong choices without the grace of Christ to enable them, without the influence (and eventually) gift of the Holy Ghost.  If it doesn't seem that way to you, I submit for your pondering 3 Nephi 9:20:

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And whoso cometh unto me with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, him will I baptize with fire and with the Holy Ghost, even as the Lamanites, because of their faith in me at the time of their conversion, were baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and they knew it not.

...which suggests to me that we can be under the influence of the Holy Ghost and not consciously realize it - strange as that seems.  This also suggests to me that those who have the gift of the Holy Ghost may not realize just how much of what they do is through that gift and how different they would be or how little good they could do without that gift or influence.

Also, because I have nowhere else to put it:

 

[zil2]

3 hours ago, zil2 said:

I know it looks and seems like this, but I submit that we cannot make righteous choices, let alone continue to make more right choices and fewer wrong choices without the grace of Christ to enable them, without the influence (and eventually) gift of the Holy Ghost. 

To expound further:

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2 Nephi 2:16 Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself. Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other.

It's not just Satan who entices, the Holy Ghost does as well, and apparently, we cannot act for ourselves without both enticements.

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Mosiah 3:19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.

This suggests that making good choices is not our natural state, hence the need for the enticings of the Spirit.  (And yes, I know, choosing to yield to those enticings is a good choice, but that choice exists only because we have the influence of the Spirit.)

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Moroni 7:12 Wherefore, all things which are good cometh of God; and that which is evil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to sin, and to do that which is evil continually.

13 But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God.

So...

5 hours ago, askandanswer said:

We agree that Christ redeems us and that we cannot save ourselves. Perhaps we might also agree that as we continue to make more righteous choices and fewer wrong choices, we eventually reach a point where the Devil no longer has power over us and we have thereby saved ourselves from him. 

I would say we have thereby allowed Christ to save us from him.  Yes, we make choices. We choose which enticing to follow.  We become more and more like Christ and stronger and stronger in Him.  But I'm not willing to say we save ourselves - I think we are too dependent upon Christ to make that claim.

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Alma 26:11 But Ammon said unto him: I do not boast in my own strength, nor in my own wisdom; but behold, my joy is full, yea, my heart is brim with joy, and I will rejoice in my God.

12 Yea, I know that I am nothing; as to my strength I am weak; therefore I will not boast of myself, but I will boast of my God, for in his strength I can do all things; yea, behold, many mighty miracles we have wrought in this land, for which we will praise his name forever.

And yes:

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1 Nephi 22:26 And because of the righteousness of his people, Satan has no power; wherefore, he cannot be loosed for the space of many years; for he hath no power over the hearts of the people, for they dwell in righteousness, and the Holy One of Israel reigneth.

But again, can there be righteousness without Christ?  Can we know what right is without the enticings of the Spirit?  Can we have power to choose right without the grace of Christ?  I don't think so.  We are weak, but He is strong...  FWIW.

[Jamie123]

2 hours ago, zil2 said:

I will not boast of myself, but I will boast of my God, for in his strength I can do all things;

Alma sounds a lot like Paul.

[zil2]

3 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

Alma sounds a lot like Paul.

That's Ammon, but yeah.  (The book of Alma includes the stories of an awful lot of people.  Not sure why Mormon, when he was compiling everything, crammed so much into one book called Alma - there is an Alma - two (father and son), but others as well.)

Edited September 24, 2023 by zil2

[zil2]

Sorry, a post-lunch crash delayed my scripture study today...

2 Nephi 9

What can one say about the beginning?  Jacob is teaching the plan of salvation and the take-away is to believe in Christ and his atoning power.

v8-9: @askandanswer, I referred without reference to this very verse in my replies above.

v9: Just cuz they look all light and shiny doesn't mean they're telling the truth.  Learn the gospel.  Learn to recognize the Spirit.

v20+: Christ knows you and all the good and bad you experience, intimately and perfectly.  Trust him.

v23: Action plan.

v28+: Don't let your learning make you arrogant; don't let your riches make you proud, stingy, and mean; don't think refusal to learn more will go over well in the judgement day.  Repent early and often.

v40: If you are striving to live as God commands, then even truth which points out your failings will not upset you (for long) because it will help you in your sincere desire.  If the truth hurts, consider that it's because you need to repent so that you can welcome God's correction.

v41: The keeper of the gate that leads to life, salvation, and exaltation is Christ.  Revelation 1:18 (and I'm sure there are more, but I'm too lazy to find them): Christ also holds the keys of death and hell.  Thus, whichever way you're going, he is the way, the keeper, the one with the keys to let you in or lock you in...  Satan isn't the one with the keys to his own "kingdom" - Christ holds even those.

v48: @Jamie123, in the Church, it's pretty common for people to express a desire to know what's on the portion of the plates that weren't translated, or to otherwise have more knowledge and revelation than we now do.  Yet this verse makes it clear - until we master what we already have, we will not get more.  (There's a verse in the D&C that says this as well, but I'm too lazy to go look for it right now.)

v49: Our goal should be to feel the same.

v54: Maybe this was General Conference.  Or maybe 2-day meetings were common.  And here we are complaining about 3-hour church...

[Carborendum]

On 9/24/2023 at 3:33 PM, Jamie123 said:

Alma sounds a lot like Paul.

Just wait until you read the part about his son, Alma II (sometimes called Alma the Younger).  You'll be crying out loud "plagiarism!!!"