Book of Mormon Reading Group: 13 Nov - 19 Nov 2023 (Alma 38 - Alma 51)

[zil2]

1 hour ago, askandanswer said:

It's a puzzling contrast between Alma and his people and King Lamoni and his people who were prospered very quickly even though they had been in a state of greater wickedness for a longer period than Alma's people. 

 

I think that requiring the military to prop up or restore your government, not once, but twice, in five years, is indicative of a failure by the civil government

Ah, yes, these make sense.

[askandanswer]

We see here the effects of Moroni's preparations. In Alma 16 the Lamanites had no problems completely destroying Ammonihah.

Alma 49

The invading Lamanites are unable to take the fortified cities of Ammonihah

 

 

It sounds as though its taken the Nephites 500 years to start constructing decent protections for their cities.

Alma 49:2

And behold, the city had been rebuilt, and Moroni had stationed an army by the borders of the city, and they had cast up dirt round about to shield them from the arrows and the stones of the Lamanites;

 

 

I'm sure if would have been an easy thing for the Lamanites to evaluate the strength of the city before sending an army to attack it. This is a significant lack of basic military foresight or planning.

Alma 49:3

and because the Lamanites had destroyed it once because of the iniquity of the people, they supposed that it would again become an easy prey for them.

 

 

It seems unwise to take an oath without a more informed understanding of the situation about which you are taking an oath.

Alma 49:17

nevertheless their chief captains had sworn with an oath to attack the city; therefore, they brought up their armies.

 

 

No sign of grief at the loss of so many men who had given their lives trying to do what he commanded. This would have been an excellent opportunity for his soldiers to kill him.

Alma 49:26

And it came to pass that he was exceedingly angry with his people,

 

 

I'm not sure what is meant by this statement, or what we should take it to mean. Three chapters ago, and within the same year - 72BC - the Nephites were killing other Nephites who were politically opposed to them, there had been a major division within their society, with many breaking away, and now they were dealing with a major Lamanite invasion.

Alma 49:30

 Yea, and there was continual peace among them, 

[Jamie123]

5 hours ago, askandanswer said:

I'm sure if would have been an easy thing for the Lamanites to evaluate the strength of the city before sending an army to attack it. This is a significant lack of basic military foresight or planning.

Didn't George Armstrong Custer make exactly the same mistake?

[Carborendum]

7 hours ago, askandanswer said:

It sounds as though its taken the Nephites 500 years to start constructing decent protections for their cities.

It's not surprising.  Most fortifications are extremely resource heavy. 

The type of defense that Moroni came up with may seem simple in concept.  But we don't really see this type of defense until the 10th century AD in Europe as a "motte and bailey".  While they have similar traits (which draw comparisons) they are somewhat contrasted as well.

Whatever the particulars of the defensive system (we don't have highly detailed descriptions) the system was so advanced that it shocked the Lamanites when they came to attack.

Some Central American ruins do show cities with fortifications that match the description found in the BoM.  But it included some stone as well as the banks of earth and wood walls which they describe.

7 hours ago, askandanswer said:

And behold, the city had been rebuilt, and Moroni had stationed an army by the borders of the city, and they had cast up dirt round about to shield them from the arrows and the stones of the Lamanites;

I'm sure if would have been an easy thing for the Lamanites to evaluate the strength of the city before sending an army to attack it. This is a significant lack of basic

If there are walls on banks of earth, I don't see a way of gathering such intelligence.  How do you suppose they could have done it?

7 hours ago, askandanswer said:

No sign of grief at the loss of so many men who had given their lives trying to do what he commanded. This would have been an excellent opportunity for his soldiers to kill him.

Consider the Russians' current war with Urkaine.  They're just everyday folks being drafted into a war they didn't want.

While that would be motivation for the average Joe to kill the leader, the average joe would tend to just do what he's told and avoid outright murdering his king. 

The more trained individual (the career soldier) would have been more likely to go along with the king's desire for war.

[Jamie123]

44 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

But we don't really see this type of defense until the 10th century AD in Europe as a "motte and bailey". 

I'm not sure I agree. Uffington Castle in Oxfordshire, which despite its name is not a true "castle" at all but a defensive earth work, was created about 800 BC.

Also the Romans created many earthwork defences of that type. Later still Offa's Dyke was dug about 800 AD as the western protection for the kingdom of Mercia.

P.S. I just thought of another example: Old Sarum:

This is what it looked like in the Middle Ages, but the surrounding earthwork is much, much older. 

Edited November 19, 2023 by Jamie123

[zil2]

Alma 50

v1+: Don't neglect your defenses.  Build them up as best you know how.

v18±: Construction work, spreading out, working together to a common end all bring prosperity.  The Lord blesses us through our own efforts.

v21, 25+: We should work hard to avoid in-fighting! (also, much of chapter 51)

v35: Select your leaders carefully.

Alma 51

v2, 5: "a few particular points" - we want a king, that's all.  No more freedom, just a king.  One minor little change...

v8: Interesting that there were people considered "of high birth" - I guess these were direct descendants of the former kings.  How sad that Nephi's descendants would act so shamefully.

v9: No doubt Satan timed his influence accordingly.

v10: Guess "But behold, we shall see..." is Mormon's version of "SPOILER ALERT!"

In-fighting leads to destruction.

Personally, I think Teancum is a hero.

[Jamie123]

17 minutes ago, zil2 said:

v8: Interesting that there were people considered "of high birth" - I guess these were direct descendants of the former kings.  How sad that Nephi's descendants would act so shamefully.

When you're at the bottom of the social scale, I don't suppose it matters much whether there's a king at the top or a bunch of squabbling aristocrats. When the French gave Louis XVI the chop, the people "of high birth" pretty soon went the same way.

Fun fact: Marie Antoinette's final words were "I am sorry monsieur, I did not do it on purpose". (She had just trodden on the executioner's foot.)

Edited November 19, 2023 by Jamie123

[Carborendum]

1 hour ago, Jamie123 said:

I'm not sure I agree. Uffington Castle in Oxfordshire, which despite its name is not a true "castle" at all but a defensive earth work, was created about 800 BC.

Also the Romans created many earthwork defences of that type. Later still Offa's Dyke was dug about 800 AD as the western protection for the kingdom of Mercia.

P.S. I just thought of another example: Old Sarum:

This is what it looked like in the Middle Ages, but the surrounding earthwork is much, much older. 

OK.  Not sure about those.  I hadn't heard of those.

Uffington Castle:

I see that it was situated on an elevated plateau.  I can't see if it was built specifically with a fortification at the edge of the embankment.
Do you have any artist renderings or if there were remnants of what the walls were like?
Earth alone is not what Moroni's defenses were.

Romans:

I had not heard about them.  But it seems that those seem to comply with the descriptions in the BoM.  And they were approximately concurrent with Moroni's defenses.

Offa's Dyke:

Again, I had not heard of this.  Learning. 
From my reading thus far, I only see it as a mound of earth.  Moroni's fortifications were more involved than that.  Was there more to it?
And 800 AD vs 900 AD is not much of a difference.  It's still quite a bit later than Moroni.

OVERALL:

Your examples do provide evidence of fortifications that could have been made with pre-Christian era technology. In fact the Great Wall of China would also be a good example.  But that was outside of Middle Earth.

I wonder about the technology available and how the economics would work.

A pre-industrialized civilization like Rome, with pre-industrialized tech, would only be able to build something really big with slave labor.  Nephites didn't have that.

The fact that the Nephite republic was wealthy enough to have a professional military that could be employed to build such fortifications says that they had a very prosperous economy indeed.

Regardless, these fortifications were impressive enough to the Lamanites that it shocked them.  They had never seen anything like it before.

[askandanswer]

3 hours ago, Carborendum said:

It's not surprising.  Most fortifications are extremely resource heavy. 

The type of defense that Moroni came up with may seem simple in concept.  But we don't really see this type of defense until the 10th century AD in Europe as a "motte and bailey".  While they have similar traits (which draw comparisons) they are somewhat contrasted as well.

Jericho was a walled city a thousand years before this and the walls were so strong that it took a miracle to bring them down. Jerusalem was also a walled city prior to Lehi's departure. There were at least two occasions when these walls saved Jerusalem from destruction. 

 

3 hours ago, Carborendum said:

If there are walls on banks of earth, I don't see a way of gathering such intelligence.  How do you suppose they could have done it?

Numbers 13: 16 - 20. See also Joshua 2:1

16 These are the names of the men which Moses sent to spy out the ^aland. And Moses called ^bOshea the son of ^cNun ^dJehoshua.

17 ¶ And Moses sent them to spy out the land of Canaan, and said unto them, Get you up ^athis way southward, and go up into the mountain:

18 And see the land, what it is; and the people that dwelleth therein, whether they be strong or weak, few or many;

19 And what the land is that they dwell in, whether it be good or bad; and what cities they be that they dwell in, whether in tents, or in strong holds;

20 And what the land is, whether it be fat or lean, whether there be wood therein, or not. And be ye of good courage, and bring of the fruit of the land. Now the time was the time of the firstripe grapes.

 

And Joshua the son of Nun sent out of Shittim two men to spy secretly, saying, Go view the land, even Jericho. And they went, and came into an harlot’s house, named ^aRahab, and lodged there.

[Jamie123]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

I see that it was situated on an elevated plateau.  I can't see if it was built specifically with a fortification at the edge of the embankment.
Do you have any artist renderings or if there were remnants of what the walls were like?
Earth alone is not what Moroni's defenses were.

I have walked around Uffington Castle many times and don't remember ever seeing any signs of a wall. I haven't found any speculative pictures of what it looked like, but im sure i do remember seeing one on TV once. I think its generally believed there was once a wall, but it would have been a wooden stockade, not a stone wall. (The motte and bailey castles built by the Normans would originally have been wooden too, though later replaced with stone.)

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

Again, I had not heard of this.  Learning. 
From my reading thus far, I only see it as a mound of earth.  Moroni's fortifications were more involved than that.  Was there more to it?
And 800 AD vs 900 AD is not much of a difference.  It's still quite a bit later than Moroni.

Offa's Dyke may have been a mound and ditch, but it was nearly 200 miles long, so no mean achievement. I don't know if it originally had a wall or not, but I did find this picture:

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

Your examples do provide evidence of fortifications that could have been made with pre-Christian era technology. In fact the Great Wall of China would also be a good example.  But that was outside of Middle Earth.

Another example would be Hadrian's Wall, but I don't think that had an earthwork - it was just a wall.

As was the Roman wall around London. That wall was still intact in 1066, and it allowed the Londoners to repel William the Conqueror. (That's right! Whatever you may have been told, London was never conquered by the Normans! William tried twice, but was repelled both times. He eventually had to negotiate a peace, whereby they would recognise him as king provided he didn’t interfere with their affairs. That is why to this day London is not only its own city - quite separate from Greater London - but its own county*.) Only a tiny fragment of that wall now exists, next to the Tower of London:

(BTW only the lower part of that wall is Roman - where the stonework is darker. The upper part is much later.)

*One reason why Matilda never became queen after capturing her rival was because she refused to recognise the special status of London. The Londoners slung her out of the city and reinstated Stephen as king.

Edited November 19, 2023 by Jamie123

[Carborendum]

57 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

Jericho was a walled city a thousand years before this and the walls were so strong that it took a miracle to bring them down. Jerusalem was also a walled city prior to Lehi's departure. There were at least two occasions when these walls saved Jerusalem from destruction. 

 

Numbers 13: 16 - 20. See also Joshua 2:1

16 These are the names of the men which Moses sent to spy out the ^aland. And Moses called ^bOshea the son of ^cNun ^dJehoshua.

17 ¶ And Moses sent them to spy out the land of Canaan, and said unto them, Get you up ^athis way southward, and go up into the mountain:

18 And see the land, what it is; and the people that dwelleth therein, whether they be strong or weak, few or many;

19 And what the land is that they dwell in, whether it be good or bad; and what cities they be that they dwell in, whether in tents, or in strong holds;

20 And what the land is, whether it be fat or lean, whether there be wood therein, or not. And be ye of good courage, and bring of the fruit of the land. Now the time was the time of the firstripe grapes.

 

And Joshua the son of Nun sent out of Shittim two men to spy secretly, saying, Go view the land, even Jericho. And they went, and came into an harlot’s house, named ^aRahab, and lodged there.

Yup.  And there was nothing else like it in the world.  That is why it was considered impregnable.  One reason was that it was way too expensive for anyone else to do.  I thought I had mentioned that about fortifications of any kind.

[Carborendum]

4 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

What? In Mercia?  But this is a TEMPERATE zone.

Sorry, I can never hear the name of Mercia without having that quote pop in my mind.

[Jamie123]

9 hours ago, Carborendum said:

What? In Mercia?  But this is a TEMPERATE zone.

Are you suggesting that coconuts migrate?

[Carborendum]

1 hour ago, Jamie123 said:

Are you suggesting that coconuts migrate?

Did you know that African and European swallows are pretty much the same size, weight, etc.?  It is difficult for the non-specialist to tell the difference.