Blacks and the Priesthood

[Abraham]

Hi,

There are a few very good explanations from Black/African American members on the old FARMS site now called Neal A. Maxwell Institute for something or other. Go to FARMS and you'll find the right site.

One of the African American members was a former anti and her story is very interesting. A couple of short snippets is that the 'we don't know' is the truth but either just serves to change the subject or furthers the debate and sad as it is does little to appease sincere seekers. The two excerpts I read give more of a justification of how the Lord is using the African American (for the lack of a better term) as his chosen sons and daughters, since they have been truly proven in the furnace of affliction, and so forth, to come forth as faithful LDS in the Latter-latter days (my phrase not theirs).

I guess some things we are not meant to fully understand. For every conceivable reply we might have there is a justifiable rebuttal which as Bro. Millett or is it Bro. Robison said, causes more heat than light.

Best of success in resolving this in your own minds and souls.

Abraham

[Elphaba]

I've never heard that. Do you have some sources?

Well well, the prodigal mod returns. I hope all is well with you and yours.

I have asked honos twice to tell me what men of presumably African descent BY ordained and set apart, and he has yet to answer me. Perhaps you'll have more success than I.

Elphaba

[Moksha]

So he sounds more Arab than black if he was of Kabylie heritage.

If I remember Volume 3 of the Cartoon History of the Universe correctly, the Arabs came after this with the spread of Islam across North Africa.

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I did notice on the rebroadcast of the 60 Minutes interview with President Hinckley, he said the ban was from prior leaders "interpretation". This means to me, that he knew how the ban really came about as presented in the Darius Gray and Margaret Young Podcast; that the reason behind the ban did not hold water in the first place and that it was not supported by Joseph Smith.

[WillowTheWhisp]

I realise I didn't explain that very well. The peoples of Africa are many and varied. As I looked at the history of that particular area the peoples who were there at the time were Berber, although there were also some Europeans. The Europeans actually intermingled with the Berbers resulting in their being today quite a few Berber people with blond hair and blue eyes. However in my experience the majority of North African Berber peoples, the ones I am personally aware of, are more of an Arab appearance than of a black African appearance.

So what I should have said was: he sounds more likely to have been of Arab appearance than black African appearance if he was of Kabylie heritage. He may even have had European ancestry.

You might find this page interesting reading. Note the related ethnic groups being other Berbers, Spanish and Portuguese.

[a-train]

Well, Bill Clinton has now been crowned as the first black U.S. President:

Clinton Honored As 'First Black President' at Black Caucus Dinner -- 10/01/2001

Senator Obama, upon being asked about it, responded that he had not seen Bill dance, so he was unable to determine the truthfulness of the notion.

-a-train

[WillowTheWhisp]

I'm with Maxine Waters. I don't know what that means either.

[Moksha]

.

So what I should have said was: he sounds more likely to have been of Arab appearance than black African appearance if he was of Kabylie heritage. He may even have had European ancestry.

Well the Arabs did sweep over this region and stayed there. Of course, that was hundreds of years after these Popes. The Wikipedia indicated that the Berbers were there since neolithic times and came originally from East Africa. Added to these people over time, were the Phoenicians, Greeks and no doubt other invading peoples as well.

[WillowTheWhisp]

I'm still not explaining myself very well am I? I assumed that people in general would not know what a Berber looked like and to me the Berber peoples of North Africa look more like Arabs than like black Africans so that is why I said that someone of possibly Berber origin would look more Arab like than black. I hope that makes sense now.

[Moksha]

I'm still not explaining myself very well am I? I assumed that people in general would not know what a Berber looked like and to me the Berber peoples of North Africa look more like Arabs than like black Africans so that is why I said that someone of possibly Berber origin would look more Arab like than black. I hope that makes sense now.

Very good point. I pulled this off the net. It is named young berber girl.jpg

We should have the missionaries standing by to convert this cutie.

[WillowTheWhisp]

Yep, that's what I meant. I wouldn't describe her as black because when I see the term black I think of someone who looks like Stevie Wonder and Berber people of North Africa don't. (I've got a Berber necklace very much like the one she's wearing!:))

[Abraham]

While on my mission to four countries we came across many and taught many who appeared to have an African ancestry but could not tell. It was in the mid 70's so we had to do the best we could in discerning who could have the PH and who could not. Regardless, many served faithfully and did not get hung up with the timing. Unfortunately, we had few guidelines, and this will sound base, but we looked at how dark they were and their physical features. It was sad, and I remember how happy I was in 1978.

In 1972 I went to Europe for six weeks as a teenager and attended church in London. How wonderful it was to attend a Ward that was approx. 60% of African descent, active, loving, energetic as any Saint would be, even w/o the PH (yes, there were families, men and women in the congregation. Again, I thought of them when I heard that all worhty males being able to receive the Priesthood authority.

If one looks at the FARMS site and pulls down the talks, some on audio, they will get a summary of the African Americans who were ordained (just a couple or few) to the PH in Joseph Smith's day. There are some sad realities about the social constraints that contributed to the ban, but it is a trial of many and their faith.

All the best,

Abraham

[Snow]

Well well, the prodigal mod returns. I hope all is well with you and yours.

I have asked honos twice to tell me what men of presumably African descent BY ordained and set apart, and he has yet to answer me. Perhaps you'll have more success than I.

Elphaba

It doesn't appear either of us will get an answer.

I'm well - hope you are the same.

I've been lurking and reading a bit, hardly any posting.

[jescott3]

My suggestion would be to read Hugh Nibley's "The Best Possible Test" which can be found in Temple and Cosmos. It is an excellent read and was actually given in 1978 five years before blacks received the priesthood. If you are capable of getting the book it is great if not you can find it onliine at CONTENTdm Collection : Compound Object Viewer which is a link to dialogue of mormon thought, it is on page 73.

[Moksha]

Even in 1973, I am surprised that Hugh Nibley used the term "the Negro Question" although I can appreciate that he was raised at an earlier time.

I still urge people to watch that podcast so they know what really transpired in bringing about the ban.

[WillowTheWhisp]

I know this my be a slight tangent to the original topic but I sometimes feel that we are tying ourselves in knots over political correctness and words. To use the word 'negro' is unacceptable whilst the word 'black' is preferred. The irony of this is that 'negro' means 'black' as in Rio Negro and yet even the darkest of skin is not black any more than the palest of skin is white. We've had people say that 'black' is no longer correct and we should ay 'people of colour' and yet not too long ago 'coloured people' was unacceptable. So what's the difference between 'coloured people' and 'people of colour'? I'm a coloured person. Pink is a colour. All this is just playing with words. We've had nursery schools changing the words of nursery rhymes so as to avoid offending pupils - so we get 'Baa baa rainbow sheep'!!! I wasn't aware there were any sheep attending nursery schools, let alone black ones who might be offended. We can't have a blackboard we must now have a chalk board but we can have an interactive whiteboard. I can't call my neighbours Pakistani, I have to call them Asian - but if I say Asian to an American they think I mean Oriental.

It's mad. If a word is used in a non-derogatory way with no intention at all of offending the person being referred to then no-one should take offence. It's a word, that's all. What happens in languages where the word for 'black' the colour IS 'negro' - what are they supposed to do? We've got people afraid of speaking these days in case they say the wrong thing unintentionally. Elderly people here were brought up to call people with darker skins 'coloured' - it wasn't meant as an insult, it was the normal word used but now if an elderly person uses that word they are told they are being offensive.

Back to the subject matter of the thread:

My non-member husband has been looking up things on the internet and found what he regards as some very offensive statements about non-whites made by early church leaders (Brigham Young in particular) and this is beginning to turn him against the church. He seems to be finding more negative things than positive ones. Its very difficult to tell him that was then and this is now when Brigham Young said such awful things and said the Lord's attitude would never change towards black people.

[SmilingRedhead]

I know this my be a slight tangent to the original topic but I sometimes feel that we are tying ourselves in knots over political correctness and words. To use the word 'negro' is unacceptable whilst the word 'black' is preferred. The irony of this is that 'negro' means 'black' as in Rio Negro and yet even the darkest of skin is not black any more than the palest of skin is white. We've had people say that 'black' is no longer correct and we should ay 'people of colour' and yet not too long ago 'coloured people' was unacceptable. So what's the difference between 'coloured people' and 'people of colour'? I'm a coloured person. Pink is a colour. All this is just playing with words. We've had nursery schools changing the words of nursery rhymes so as to avoid offending pupils - so we get 'Baa baa rainbow sheep'!!! I wasn't aware there were any sheep attending nursery schools, let alone black ones who might be offended. We can't have a blackboard we must now have a chalk board but we can have an interactive whiteboard. I can't call my neighbours Pakistani, I have to call them Asian - but if I say Asian to an American they think I mean Oriental.

It's mad. If a word is used in a non-derogatory way with no intention at all of offending the person being referred to then no-one should take offence. It's a word, that's all. What happens in languages where the word for 'black' the colour IS 'negro' - what are they supposed to do? We've got people afraid of speaking these days in case they say the wrong thing unintentionally. Elderly people here were brought up to call people with darker skins 'coloured' - it wasn't meant as an insult, it was the normal word used but now if an elderly person uses that word they are told they are being offensive.

I totally and utterly agree with you Willow!

[Moksha]

Willow and Red, the phrase in question was the use of the term "The Negro Question", rather than the term Negro (although this was out of vogue in 1973). The "Negro Question" has arisen in both terms of slavery and segregation. Both of which were resolved on the secular level by 1973, although I suppost Church segregation still held the question open. Anyway it is now resolved on an institutional Church level, and I suspect will be resolved on an individual level within the next generation.

[WillowTheWhisp]

Maybe that term doesn't register with me because we've not had a 'negro question' as such in this country. I'm puzzled by the last part of your post. I may have misunderstood you but are you saying that individuals within the church are prejudiced against black members? I'm not aware of that here because we have members of different races and all are treated equally.

[Iggy]

Maybe that term doesn't register with me because we've not had a 'negro question' as such in this country. I'm puzzled by the last part of your post. I may have misunderstood you but are you saying that individuals within the church are prejudiced against black members? I'm not aware of that here because we have members of different races and all are treated equally.

I knew of an entire family along with their extended families that left the church when the priesthood was extended to ALL worthy males.

Once I got to know this family a bit more, I wasn't too surprised at all. I believe that they are now members of an elitist Aryan/Survivalist type of group.

[WillowTheWhisp]

Thankfully we don't seem to have anyone like that. We have black and mixed race members in teaching positions who are looked up to by the paler skinned of us.

If people leave the church because they can't handle black people being treated as equals how do they cope with the knowledge that in the pre-existence we were all brothers and sisters?