The Great And Abominable Church

[Jason]

Starsky,

Thanks for the clarification. To me, this sort of anti-catholicism should have died out long ago. Im honestly a bit surprised that Jenda has this view. I consider both of you my friends. Hopefully, I'll be able to show her that Catholicism is not abominable, nor pagan, nor corrupted christianity, nor is poor old John Paul the anti-christ, etc..

[Jenda]

Jason, before I begin, if I choose to take this up with you, I wanted to add to my statement.

I did state that I felt that there are many good and God-fearing people in the Catholic Church. I want to take the opportunity to discuss what I feel about churches.

Many of my friends are in the habit of saying that a church is nothing more than the people who make up the church. I tend to disagree with that statement. I feel that a church is an institution like any other (a business, a society, a college, etc.), and it's primary concern is to protect itself at all costs. But a church, being an institution of faith must also concern itself with the people who comprise it. Or should. So, I believe that there are two different "churches" within a church. There is the level of the people where the work of the church is performed. The work of witnessing and programs and ministry. This level is warm and inviting. Then there is the level where the business is performed. This level of the church is cold and impersonal. This "church" is the machinery, where everything (programs, etc.) is minutely examined to see which direction it will take the church. This machinery was set in motion long ago. For my church, it was set in motion about 40 years ago when many very influential people decided that they wanted to change the direction the church was moving. But my church is young (comparatively). The machinery of the Catholic church was set in motion hundreds and hundreds of years ago. It has a goal, and there is nothing that will stop the church from reaching that goal.

You wanted to help me understand that John Paul, II, is not the anti-Christ. I don't believe he is. I believe he is a God-fearing man, who is doing the best he can under the conditions he is required to work under. But I believe his is but a puppet in the grand scheme of things (as would be anyone who occupied that position.) I feel the same about my church in this manner. Grant McMurray (the president of my church) is but a puppet acting out the role of president in a complex scheme that was set in motion years ago. I believe that if either man (your man or mine) tried to change things significantly, they would be unable to. They only have so much power, the machinery of the church prevents much else from moving it from it's destined course.

That is how I feel about your church and mine.

If I get the time and the desire, I will try to tackle your challenge. If not, I will try to post a few links just so you can see what I have studied that has led me to my conclusion.

[Traveler]

Originally posted by Jenda@May 31 2004, 07:04 PM

Boy do we interpret these scriptures differently.

A couple of questions (mostly related to your point #3.)

How do you know that the G&A church has been around a long time, and in fact was the dominant power of intellectual thinking at the time of Jesus?

How can you read those scriptures and not see the correlation between the G&A church, and an actual church of today? It is so very obvious to me.

Sorry I am not around to answer more and I will be gone for a while - kind of a busy time. The G & A C was responsible for removing "plain and precious" truths from the scriptures. Most of this was accomplished by 100 AD and there really was not a Catholic Church at that time. Recent finds in Caesarea indicate that by 75 AD scriptures were being systematically altered. We know through the Dead Sea Scriptures that the pure parts of the scriptures were still in tact (Old Testament) up to about 73 - 74 AD.

There should be some overlap as scriptures were hidden up to be preserved. As a matter of fact, I believe there are several relevant scriptures found among the DSS that give understanding. Those that have followed the attempts to keep certain DSS from the public realize that all 50 of them play at least a small part in scriptures being removed from the public.

I am sure that the G & A C has been around a long time. 2000 years ago it united leaders from several religious organizations to alter scriptures and is still effective today in keeping many confused and from the truth when the scriptures are rediscovered or restored.

If one studies the methods and worship of Baal much more becomes clear. Perhaps the next chance I get I would post more about Baal and the interesting method of burning to clean away this particular effect before society can operate “cleanly”.

The Traveler

[Jason]

"Sorry I am not around to answer more and I will be gone for a while - kind of a busy time. The G & A C was responsible for removing "plain and precious" truths from the scriptures."

Name one?

"Most of this was accomplished by 100 AD and there really was not a Catholic Church at that time."

Yes there was a Catholic Church. It was founded by this dude from Nazareth....

"Recent finds in Caesarea indicate that by 75 AD scriptures were being systematically altered."

Source please?

"We know through the Dead Sea Scriptures that the pure parts of the scriptures were still in tact (Old Testament) up to about 73 - 74 AD."

Don't you mean Dead Sea Scrolls?

"There should be some overlap as scriptures were hidden up to be preserved. As a matter of fact, I believe there are several relevant scriptures found among the DSS that give understanding. Those that have followed the attempts to keep certain DSS from the public realize that all 50 of them play at least a small part in scriptures being removed from the public."

Care to share an example?

"I am sure that the G & A C has been around a long time. 2000 years ago it united leaders from several religious organizations to alter scriptures and is still effective today in keeping many confused and from the truth when the scriptures are rediscovered or restored."

Let me see: Illumaniti, Trilateral Commission, Freemasonry....name your conspiracy.

"If one studies the methods and worship of Baal much more becomes clear. Perhaps the next chance I get I would post more about Baal and the interesting method of burning to clean away this particular effect before society can operate “cleanly”."

Oh, please do.

[Guest Peace]

Interesting stuff about historical Christianity

This site has some information....you might like to read through.

[Jason]

Ah, yes. A classic legend to say the least.

[Faerie]

I was always taught that the "great and abominable church" was not an actual church, but that it was an allegory for the ways of the world and the ways of the devil...i even specifically asked in seminary one day if it was the "catholic church" and was told that it wasn't..it wasn't ANY church...

it's this little thing called symbolism...

so i guess my view agrees w/ starsky's view...

[Cal]

Trav--in your original post you refered to Rev 12:17 implying that it had some reference to your GA C? It seems to me you were trying to give some BIBLICAL context to the use of this term, when the Bible never even mentions the term as far as I have found. Please show me where the term "Great and Abominable Church" is mentioned in the Bible. As far as I can tell it is a term invented by JS in the BoM to rail against the religions of the time, and to discredit them in the eyes of his followers. IMHO opinion, JS probably was refering to the Catholic church with this term since it is pretty clear that JS thought the Catholic church had perverted the scriptures, however, it is now pretty politically incorrect to call ANY church Great and Abominable since the LDS church has gone from trying to distinguish itself from other churches to trying to fit in and be more socially acceptable to the run of the mill christians.

Also, I, like Ex, would like to know specifically what "plain and precious truths" were removed during this 100AD period.And from WHAT were they removed. The New Testament had barely been written at this point, and the Jews were in charge of the Torah and the rest of their writtings. What precious truths were lost?

[Jenda]

In this website that Peace provided, http://www.whyprophets.com/prophets/arimthea.htm, granted it is an LDS website, it provides lots of interesting (documented) information leading to the conclusion that 570 is the date of the apostasy. A date that the LDS do not believe, but that the RLDS do believe as the most likely date for the apostasy.

Very interesting. B)

[Lindy]

Originally posted by Faerie@Jun 2 2004, 07:42 AM

I was always taught that the "great and abominable church" was not an actual church, but that it was an allegory for the ways of the world and the ways of the devil...i even specifically asked in seminary one day if it was the "catholic church" and was told that it wasn't..it wasn't ANY church...

it's this little thing called symbolism...

so i guess my view agrees w/ starsky's view...

And I agree with Faerie's view who agrees with.......:)

[Traveler]

"Sorry I am not around to answer more and I will be gone for a while - kind of a busy time. The G & A C was responsible for removing "plain and precious" truths from the scriptures."

Name one? - I will gladly name a few.

1. The full Book of Enoch - a part of which is quoted in the Book of Jude verses 14-16

2. The Dead Sea Scroll (4Q246) titled “The Son of God”

3. 49 Hebrew words missing between the last verse of Chapter 10 and the first verse of chapter 11 of 1 Samuel.

4. Text Changes in Isaiah 38:11

5. The Gentile prophet of the Last Days as described in the Testaments of the Patriarchs.

"Most of this was accomplished by 100 AD and there really was not a Catholic Church at that time."

Yes there was a Catholic Church. It was founded by this dude from Nazareth....

Sorry I missed the scripture where Jesus ordained a “Pope”, or “Cardinals”. Apostles I can find but not the structure or organization of the Catholic Church as it appears today.

"Recent finds in Caesarea indicate that by 75 AD scriptures were being systematically altered."

Source please? - Tom Newman - retired archeological chair Harvard University

"We know through the Dead Sea Scriptures that the pure parts of the scriptures were still in tact (Old Testament) up to about 73 - 74 AD."

Don't you mean Dead Sea Scrolls? - No I mean the Dead Sea Scriptures. Among the Scrolls that were discovered are scriptures - All of the Old Testament except for one book. Do you not consider the Old Testament Scripture? These documents are the most accurate text found to date - I believe they should be recognized as sacred.

"There should be some overlap as scriptures were hidden up to be preserved. As a matter of fact, I believe there are several relevant scriptures found among the DSS that give understanding. Those that have followed the attempts to keep certain DSS from the public realize that all 50 of them play at least a small part in scriptures being removed from the public."

Care to share an example? - Again there are 50 to name just a few

1.The Messiah of Heaven and Earth (4Q521)

2.The Messianic Leader (4Q285)

3. Servants of Darkness (4Q471)

4. The Tree of Evil (4Q458)

5. The Angels of Mastemoth and the Rule of Belial (4Q390)

"I am sure that the G & A C has been around a long time. 2000 years ago it united leaders from several religious organizations to alter scriptures and is still effective today in keeping many confused and from the truth when the scriptures are rediscovered or restored."

Let me see: Illumaniti, Trilateral Commission, Freemasonry....name your conspiracy.

The Hellenist - Debates concerning Grace vs works. Peter the keeper of Heavens gate vs Mot and the scales of Mot. G-d is unknowable. Just to name a few ideas coming from the Hellenistic conspiracy.

"If one studies the methods and worship of Baal much more becomes clear. Perhaps the next chance I get I would post more about Baal and the interesting method of burning to clean away this particular effect before society can operate ““cleanly””."

Oh, please do. - Later when I have some time. Perhaps you would not mind starting the thread by telling us what you know about Baal, who he was and his role in the scheme of things.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

Originally posted by Cal@Jun 2 2004, 04:26 PM

Trav--in your original post you refered to Rev 12:17 implying that it had some reference to your GA C? It seems to me you were trying to give some BIBLICAL context to the use of this term, when the Bible never even mentions the term as far as I have found. Please show me where the term "Great and Abominable Church" is mentioned in the Bible.

I do not think you are LDS so I am not sure you will understand the relationship between the "Great and Abomnimal Chruch" and "Babylon the Great" (Revelation 17:5) .

In my post I intended to show the correlation - Sorry I was not clear enough on that point for you.

The Traveler

[Tr2]

I believe that there are only two churches:

Fair enough. However the world is not a church.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Traveler+Jun 4 2004, 01:39 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Traveler @ Jun 4 2004, 01:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Jun 2 2004, 04:26 PM

Trav--in your original post you refered to Rev 12:17 implying that it had some reference to your GA C?  It seems to me you were trying to give some BIBLICAL context to the use of this term, when the Bible never even mentions the term as far as I have found. Please show me where the term "Great and Abominable Church" is mentioned in the Bible.

I do not think you are LDS so I am not sure you will understand the relationship between the "Great and Abomnimal Chruch" and "Babylon the Great" (Revelation 17:5) .

In my post I intended to show the correlation - Sorry I was not clear enough on that point for you.

The Traveler

My understanding of that scripture had to do with the Mother of Harlots being the G&A church.

The Catholic Church being the mother of harlots, the harlots being the protestant denominations that sprang up from it.

(Now I think I have offended most everyone who is not LDS in one way or another. Sorry, that is just what I was taught (and how I currently believe. )(I had stepped away from that belief for a while, but picked it back up after some studying.))

[Rodney]

Large powerful organizations seem to require enemies, whether real or imagined. Remember our infamous "Cold War" enemy? I think some thought them great and abominable. Then there was Saddam. Got him so he's no longer G and A. Thank goodness for Osama the Horrible. Hopefully, we won't catch him until something else is primed to step into the void. Suppose Mormons will always have the Catholics to kick around. If not, there's always that imagined devil guy to fight/fear.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Tr2@Jun 4 2004, 02:00 PM

I believe that there are only two churches:

Fair enough. However the world is not a church.

To Satan it is....it is where his kingdom (as apposed to God's kingdom) is....it is where he does his work and establishes his power....enticing the natural lusts of men....through lyings, cheats, theives, porngraphy, drugs, bars, gambling joints...strip joints....prostitution...etc...these are all him establishing his work and power in his church(as apposed to God establishing his work and power in His church in their hearts)

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Rodney@Jun 5 2004, 02:53 AM

Large powerful organizations seem to require enemies, whether real or imagined.  Remember our infamous "Cold War" enemy?  I think some thought them great and abominable.  Then there was Saddam.  Got him so he's no longer G and A.  Thank goodness for Osama the Horrible.  Hopefully, we won't catch him until something else is primed to step into the void.  Suppose Mormons will always have the Catholics to kick around.  If not, there's always that imagined devil guy to fight/fear.

You compare the church to the government....I find that very revealing....

As far as satan being imagined.... again....you have taken the bait...

2 Ne. 28: 22

22 And behold, others he flattereth away, and telleth them there is no hell; and he saith unto them: I am no devil, for there is none—and thus he whispereth in their ears, until he grasps them with his awful chains, from whence there is no deliverance.

[Rodney]

You compare the church to the government....I find that very revealing....

Only that they can both be large powerful organizations. Wonder what that really reveals?

As far as satan being imagined.... again....you have taken the bait...

No, I think it is you who have swallowed hook, line and sinker.

[Lindy]

Originally posted by Starsky+Jun 5 2004, 09:15 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Starsky @ Jun 5 2004, 09:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Tr2@Jun 4 2004, 02:00 PM

I believe that there are only two churches:

Fair enough. However the world is not a church.

To Satan it is....it is where his kingdom (as apposed to God's kingdom) is....it is where he does his work and establishes his power....enticing the natural lusts of men....through lyings, cheats, theives, porngraphy, drugs, bars, gambling joints...strip joints....prostitution...etc...these are all him establishing his work and power in his church(as apposed to God establishing his work and power in His church in their hearts)

Good point Starsky.

I guess it all comes down to the final question:

Where are you in your life.....God's side or satan's side?

It really is up to us to decide....

I am sitting here contemplating about some of the garbage I believed about people I have met in my life....there are those who speak of God and their love for Him and then dabbling with satans playground as soon as they finish speaking of the respect they have for the Lord.

[Tr2]

To Satan it is....it is where his kingdom (as apposed to God's kingdom) is....it is where he does his work and establishes his power....enticing the natural lusts of men....through lyings, cheats, theives, porngraphy, drugs, bars, gambling joints...strip joints....prostitution...etc...these are all him establishing his work and power in his church(as apposed to God establishing his work and power in His church in their hearts)

You have got to be kidding me! And it's not even April 1st anymore.

How do you know what satan thinks and believes? Have you spoken with him recently? Don't you claim your beliefs come from God, too?I know I've said that I think the angel of light, that Smith spoke with, was satan himself. Are you believing this too?

What are the characteristics of a church? A church is a group of people who come together under a certain specific belief system. They may have their own creeds, practices, hopes and dreams. This is not the world. The world is a place that lacks any form of unity or common interest.

"through lyings, cheats, theives, porngraphy, drugs, bars, gambling joints...strip joints....prostitution...etc" You might have some ground if there weren't mormons actively and daily involved in such things, in direct opposition to your church's doctrines. You know that as well as I do so don't pretend otherwise. Since they are involved in your church and these activities then I guess members of the abominable church are also dual members with the mormon church.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Rodney@Jun 5 2004, 10:20 AM

You compare the church to the government....I find that very revealing....

Only that they can both be large powerful organizations. Wonder what that really reveals?

As far as satan being imagined.... again....you have taken the bait...

No, I think it is you who have swallowed hook, line and sinker.

What a looser post.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Tr2@Jun 5 2004, 05:09 PM

To Satan it is....it is where his kingdom (as apposed to God's kingdom) is....it is where he does his work and establishes his power....enticing the natural lusts of men....through lyings, cheats, theives, porngraphy, drugs, bars, gambling joints...strip joints....prostitution...etc...these are all him establishing his work and power in his church(as apposed to God establishing his work and power in His church in their hearts)

You have got to be kidding me! And it's not even April 1st anymore.

How do you know what satan thinks and believes? Have you spoken with him recently? Don't you claim your beliefs come from God, too?I know I've said that I think the angel of light, that Smith spoke with, was satan himself. Are you believing this too?

What are the characteristics of a church? A church is a group of people who come together under a certain specific belief system. They may have their own creeds, practices, hopes and dreams. This is not the world. The world is a place that lacks any form of unity or common interest.

"through lyings, cheats, theives, porngraphy, drugs, bars, gambling joints...strip joints....prostitution...etc" You might have some ground if there weren't mormons actively and daily involved in such things, in direct opposition to your church's doctrines. You know that as well as I do so don't pretend otherwise. Since they are involved in your church and these activities then I guess members of the abominable church are also dual members with the mormon church.

You don't see the world as a group of people believing in making and spending money on non essentials while the poor go begging and hungry?

You don't see the world as a group of people believing they come first....and everyone else second?

You don't see the world as a group believing that the lusts of the flesh should be quenched without bias or limits?

That is the world religion...not everyone participates in this world group.....but it definitely exists...and thrives...even if it is inclosets....and secret places.......

And Yes the LDS church members (SOME) do participate in both the church of the devil and yet are card carrying members of the LDS church.

An example...my spouse works with a guy who spends his week-ends in strip bars and drinking....yet goes to church most sundays...takes the sacrement and holds a Temple Recommend....

Well obviously...he is totally of the church of the devil...but participates on a hypocritical level...in the LDS church...

There are two churches only...the church of the devil and the church of Christ. YOu may be in any number of churches...and still be in the church of the devil....

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by lindy9556+Jun 5 2004, 11:08 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (lindy9556 @ Jun 5 2004, 11:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Starsky@Jun 5 2004, 09:15 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--Tr2@Jun 4 2004, 02:00 PM

I believe that there are only two churches:

Fair enough. However the world is not a church.

To Satan it is....it is where his kingdom (as apposed to God's kingdom) is....it is where he does his work and establishes his power....enticing the natural lusts of men....through lyings, cheats, theives, porngraphy, drugs, bars, gambling joints...strip joints....prostitution...etc...these are all him establishing his work and power in his church(as apposed to God establishing his work and power in His church in their hearts)

Good point Starsky.

I guess it all comes down to the final question:

Where are you in your life.....God's side or satan's side?

It really is up to us to decide....

I am sitting here contemplating about some of the garbage I believed about people I have met in my life....there are those who speak of God and their love for Him and then dabbling with satans playground as soon as they finish speaking of the respect they have for the Lord.

Thanks Lindy...

You make a very good point. The way to tell if someone is of one church or the other...isn't by their membership card...or Temple Recommend....

it is by what is in their hearts....where their treasure is...

[Lindy]

Originally posted by Starsky@Jun 5 2004, 05:35 PM

Thanks Lindy...

You make a very good point. The way to tell if someone is of one church or the other...isn't by their membership card...or Temple Recommend....

it is by what is in their hearts....where their treasure is...

So I had to find out the hard way..AGAIN...one of these days I WILL learn.

[Rodney]

Originally posted by Starsky@Jun 5 2004, 06:17 PM

What a looser post.

What a name caller! Profanity bad, name calling good. And to think some find a double standard working here--one for posters and one for moderators and ex-moderators.