Wanting To Believe

[Nicodemus]

Hi, this is my first post here and I'm a little nervous at it. I wish to post anonymously, just call me "Nick."

As an introduction, I'm a teenager and a Protestant. I am informed about your church to a significant degree, yet still unlearned about much. I am more informed about my beliefs- I have authored two chapters of a systematic theology you might have read. THIS is why it is so important that my posts are anonymous.

I'm not really involved in a church because there is none that I can attend that I've found that I enjoy. I just have little desire to. I don't understand it- I've instructed pastors heading congregations with thousands of people, and I know my theology and Bible very well, yet the key is that I'm unhappy and don't feel insincere. I'm perpetually depressed.

Most of my friends are LDS, and I want to join the church. Yet, I cannot join a church that I do not believe is right. If I know that there are problems with your church, I can't join a church I know is wrong. I stay up night after night reading the standard works of the LDS church and different theologies and yet I remain highly unconvinced.

I guess what I want desparately is to be convinced that the LDS church is the true church. I've tried to discuss issues with people in person, but most of the time they don't know what they're talking about. I've TAUGHT the LDS about their own doctrine before.

I don't know why I feel drawn to your church. Perhaps it is because I seek happiness and involvement, an opportunity to serve, and have many friends there- including several women with which we share mutual attractions. With the social structure of your church I would never again be lonely or depressed. I've wondered if it is the lusts of the flesh that draw me to your church- the doctrines of celestial marriage and exaltation sometimes seem to be backdoor attempts at merging desires for endless sexual relations, pride, and power with the Christian faith.

I'd like to know more about the LDS faith. And the RLDS if possible. I'm tired of staying up every night trying to convince myself. I've prayed about the Book of Mormon, asking God to reveal Himself or the Holy Spirit to me. I've gone into woods and prayed several times for wisdom as Joseph Smith instructed. I want a way to excuse myself to joining the LDS church. There's a genuine happiness and sincerity that I haven't found elsewhere.

The problem is that I can't because I have so many problems with it. Why did the three witnesses fall away at some point- that credibility is WORSE than non-existent. Why are elephants mentioned in the BOM? How is it that it is mentioned that the Americas were once so crowded and buildings littered the landscape when in fact there is no archaeological evidence for that (or that 2 million something-ites died in a war or series of wars). I ask these to other people and I'm wasting my time. I'm aware that online, there lie my sleeping theological giants that could instruct me.

BTW, one thing I like about the LDS church is that it will logically allow me to abandon my beliefs in evolutionary theory and the big bang. I'm working towards becoming a geobiologist (geophysics fused with ecology) and am in a sense forced scientifically to hold to the big bang and evolution. If I were LDS I would no longer need to believe in the big bang since I could say:

1) The universe is expanding because saints are receiving their exaltation and constantly getting exalted, and so new galaxies are being created. There is no "outer ends" of our universe per se since it is isotropic.

2) The cosmic microwave background exists because the universe was once smaller than it is today and the radiation from various close sources might account for it granted that we accept that this radiation occurred in the near past and is slowly fading.

3) The presence of billions and billions of other galaxies is a stumbling block for creationists of other religions. Galaxies that we can only detect mathematically and cannot observe- why do they exist if we're alone? Not "to glorify God" since they're only detectable through complex equations (differential geometry in Robertson-Walker form I suppose). These other galaxies serve a purpose in LDS theology.

4) Radioactive isotopes dating billions of years old- since matter is eternal in your theology, I can simply say that it's been 4.55 billion years (if we're dealing with lunar rocks, terrestrial samples, or local meteorites) since that matter has left a supernova explosion- but it existed in smaller forms prior to that. If I were creationist and a Protestant, claiming the universe was 10,000 years old, I'd be dead meat on that blatant contradiction to creationism.

Right now, I am forced to explain this away through the big bang theory. The universe is expanding and cooling still; the CMB exists as a fossil of the initial hot and dense state; the other galaxies are mere lifeless side effects of the big bang.

And I accept evolution, partly, because now that I've accepted the big bang what else am I to do? Other reasons include various methods such as endogenous retrovirus insertions, vestigial structures, etc. but if I ever became LDS, I would drop both theories in a heartbeat and work towards settling those inconsistencies in geobiology.

Science means a lot to me and so being able to hold to LDS theology would greatly improve my options regarding it. Thanks for being patient, and this is not a hoax- I am sincerely seeking truth, if this is where it is to be found.

God bless you for your patience.

[Jenda]

I can help you with the RLDS portion of it, but, what do you know about the RLDS now so I know where to start?

And one other question. You have done all that you describe, and are a teenager???

[Guest Starsky]

You sound a little like CaliforniaKid on the Whyprophets forum...are you?

I have only one thing to say about all of what you wrote....Have you been born again?

[Jason]

"I don't know why I feel drawn to your church. . . . including several women with which we share mutual attractions. . . . I've wondered if it is the lusts of the flesh that draw me to your church- the doctrines of celestial marriage and exaltation sometimes seem to be backdoor attempts at merging desires for endless sexual relations, pride, and power with the Christian faith."

Looks like you've found your reasons. If it's sex you're after (which it looks like to me.), I could hook you up with some of the Utah polygamous cults. They'd love to have someone like you....

Otherwise, I suggest you get your paxil dose up'ed, cause you've got some serious instability issues that NO church can solve.

[Tr2]

Most of my friends are LDS, and I want to join the church. Yet, I cannot join a church that I do not believe is right.

So you want to join a church to fit in with your friends better?

I'm perpetually depressed.

The mormon church is not going to cure that. In fact many people aren't depressed until they are in the mormon church for a while.

I guess what I want desparately is to be convinced that the LDS church is the true church.

Then you will convince yourself, whether there are facts or not. You are not the first.

Perhaps it is because I seek happiness and involvement, an opportunity to serve, and have many friends there- including several women with which we share mutual attractions

Are you 14?

It sounds like you are looking for friends, and girls. Joining a church to find them will screw up your life.

[Guest bizabra]

Heh, nice lampoon!

[Nicodemus]

I am going to be twenty next year- no I am not fourteen.

Well this was an effective waste of my time. Now it's time for me to catch a greased pig.

So that you know I considered one of your posts seriously. I appreciate your kind attention into this matter.

[Nicodemus]

I'm attending a Texas university in the fall and working towards a degree in biology, and am making plans at attending a grad school in Pasadena for my further education.

In case you're wondering the issue that I instructed Pastor W. on of a Southern Baptist church was on dispensationalism and covenant theology. Dispensationalists that are not of the progressive or ultra- conviction generally subscribe to the concept that the spiritual AND local church started in Acts 2 at Pentecost. Hence, no indwelling had existed prior to Acts. However, a blatant contradiction was that he is a Calvinist and the doctrine of irresistible grace for him requires such indwelling to regenerate the elect. So, the problem I talked to him about dealt with how the spiritual church HAD to have started with the Proto-evangelion in Genesis 3:15- else no salvation existed before Acts.

If you think I'm making any of this up and going online in the middle of the night to impress a few anonymous people I happen to chat on the internet with, just tell me to get out of here and I'll leave. I apologize for my lack of patience but my nerves for such are wearing thin and I feel a sense of urgency in getting into this as soon as possible.

[Nicodemus]

Whether or not I subconsciously desire to the join the church to fit in with my friends better or any of the abovementioned reasons I listed above I do not know.

Perhaps you are right in that. Every member of the LDS church I've met SEEMS happy and sincere. Even the ones I know intimately. The other ones I cannot say for certain. I'm just really confused right now and need spiritual help- but I don't know where to turn...

There is much wisdom in your post Tr2.

I'm just going through hard times right now.

[Guest Starsky]

It would be best to turn to the Lord. If you can find Him, the rest will follow.

[Nicodemus]

How does one turn to the Lord? I ask for guidance and seek to obey and search after Him- and then what? Do I skip church in the meantime? Which church do I join? I cannot join a church I believe is wrong. And right now, not a church exists that I believe is right. The only church I haven't examined to a great degree of depth is the RLDS.

[Guest Starsky]

I believe that repentence is the only way to turn to the Lord. We sometimes don't know what we need to repent from....we have to ask the Lord to show us our sins, our spiritual weaknesses...

Sometimes it is pride, hard headedness....holding to our own understanding...demanding that it be given to us in our way and time...

We have to let go of ourselves....taking those first steps into the darkness....trusting the Lord will be there to lead us through..

[Lindy]

Hey Nick~

There is a reason why most LDS are happy with themselves...because they have found a peace within that they couldn't find anywhere else. You sound like a very intelligent young man, and you probably will analyze any and all information you can about the LDS religion.

Just remember that when one gets closer to finding the truth they are looking for, the path won't be easy to follow....especially if the adversary senses a strong spirit for Christ. The evil one will try what it can to hamper your reasonings, and boulders will be put in the way to dissuade you. Logic is a gift from God, but you also have to have trust and faith in what you cannot comprehend sometimes. Look, seek to find the good in life, and you will find the truth you are looking for. It took me years to find the truths I needed in my life....even if others think I may be wrong, I am not ashamed to stand up in front of God and say that I am LDS.

What's he going to do? Accept me for what I stand for? :)

[Lindy]

Good Post Starsky!

[Nicodemus]

And if I am condemned on the grounds of accepting and teaching LDS doctrine at the judgment seat? Does this fear not linger in your mind?

That perhaps you all here are luring me to get me to fall into apostacy as a part of the devil's plan to deceive me and I will realize it only when it is too late? I mean no offense but ask this in all seriousness.

I don't just respect the Lord- I FEAR Him. He is sovereign and just. I'm just really confused... I thought that learning and forcefeeding myself mass amounts of sys. theologies and doctrines would relieve it all and give my soul and mind peace and rest...

[Lindy]

Originally posted by Nicodemus@Jun 1 2004, 12:19 AM

And if I am condemned on the grounds of accepting and teaching LDS doctrine at the judgment seat?  Does this fear not linger in your mind?

That perhaps you all here are luring me to get me to fall into apostacy as a part of the devil's plan to deceive me and I will realize it only when it is too late?  I mean no offense but ask this in all seriousness.

I don't just respect the Lord- I FEAR Him.  He is sovereign and just.  I'm just really confused...  I thought that learning and forcefeeding myself mass amounts of sys. theologies and doctrines would relieve it all and give my soul and mind peace and rest...

Condemned on the grounds of teaching others to love, respect and serve Jesus Christ as well as others? I am certain that God will not condemn anyone who follows that path.

Fear? I would fear the judgement seat if I didn't have the strength of my testimony of what I know is true.

And, I have heard that one about luring others to fall before...this isn't the first time I would have to defend my position on that......You must have attended a Baptist church....wait a min....you said something about a Baptist minister....that could explain things.

Why would we follow Christ, and be willing to die for His name if we were planning to lure people away from Him? Our goal as LDS is to bring people unto Christ, not to lure them away from Him.

And yes, the Lord is JUST.....he can see in our hearts, we cannot hide from Him any evil desires or plots. And IMHO all the education in the world doesn't come close to giving your soul the peace and serenity it needs. Hit your knees and humble yourself before the Lord....it works for me.

BTW...have you read "The Miracle of Forgiveness"?

That book helped me to get closer to the Lord than I ever have been....

[Guest Peace]

Originally posted by Nicodemus@Jun 1 2004, 01:19 AM

And if I am condemned on the grounds of accepting and teaching LDS doctrine at the judgment seat?  Does this fear not linger in your mind?

That perhaps you all here are luring me to get me to fall into apostacy as a part of the devil's plan to deceive me and I will realize it only when it is too late?  I mean no offense but ask this in all seriousness.

I don't just respect the Lord- I FEAR Him.  He is sovereign and just.  I'm just really confused...  I thought that learning and forcefeeding myself mass amounts of sys. theologies and doctrines would relieve it all and give my soul and mind peace and rest...

Only Christ can give your soul peace and rest. His charity is the ultimate goal, not knowledge...because knowledge can and will vanish away....1 Cor. 13:8 ... whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

Also....we are not luring....you came to us...remember? :) You are free to go at any time.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Nicodemus@May 30 2004, 08:34 PM

Hi, this is my first post here and I'm a little nervous at it. I wish to post anonymously, just call me "Nick."

As an introduction, I'm a teenager and a Protestant. I am informed about your church to a significant degree, yet still unlearned about much. I am more informed about my beliefs- I have authored two chapters of a systematic theology you might have read. THIS is why it is so important that my posts are anonymous.

I'm not really involved in a church because there is none that I can attend that I've found that I enjoy. I just have little desire to. I don't understand it- I've instructed pastors heading congregations with thousands of people, and I know my theology and Bible very well, yet the key is that I'm unhappy and don't feel insincere. I'm perpetually depressed.

Most of my friends are LDS, and I want to join the church. Yet, I cannot join a church that I do not believe is right. If I know that there are problems with your church, I can't join a church I know is wrong. I stay up night after night reading the standard works of the LDS church and different theologies and yet I remain highly unconvinced.

I guess what I want desparately is to be convinced that the LDS church is the true church. I've tried to discuss issues with people in person, but most of the time they don't know what they're talking about. I've TAUGHT the LDS about their own doctrine before.

I don't know why I feel drawn to your church. Perhaps it is because I seek happiness and involvement, an opportunity to serve, and have many friends there- including several women with which we share mutual attractions. With the social structure of your church I would never again be lonely or depressed. I've wondered if it is the lusts of the flesh that draw me to your church- the doctrines of celestial marriage and exaltation sometimes seem to be backdoor attempts at merging desires for endless sexual relations, pride, and power with the Christian faith.

I'd like to know more about the LDS faith. And the RLDS if possible. I'm tired of staying up every night trying to convince myself. I've prayed about the Book of Mormon, asking God to reveal Himself or the Holy Spirit to me. I've gone into woods and prayed several times for wisdom as Joseph Smith instructed. I want a way to excuse myself to joining the LDS church. There's a genuine happiness and sincerity that I haven't found elsewhere.

The problem is that I can't because I have so many problems with it. Why did the three witnesses fall away at some point- that credibility is WORSE than non-existent. Why are elephants mentioned in the BOM? How is it that it is mentioned that the Americas were once so crowded and buildings littered the landscape when in fact there is no archaeological evidence for that (or that 2 million something-ites died in a war or series of wars). I ask these to other people and I'm wasting my time. I'm aware that online, there lie my sleeping theological giants that could instruct me.

BTW, one thing I like about the LDS church is that it will logically allow me to abandon my beliefs in evolutionary theory and the big bang. I'm working towards becoming a geobiologist (geophysics fused with ecology) and am in a sense forced scientifically to hold to the big bang and evolution. If I were LDS I would no longer need to believe in the big bang since I could say:

1) The universe is expanding because saints are receiving their exaltation and constantly getting exalted, and so new galaxies are being created. There is no "outer ends" of our universe per se since it is isotropic.

2) The cosmic microwave background exists because the universe was once smaller than it is today and the radiation from various close sources might account for it granted that we accept that this radiation occurred in the near past and is slowly fading.

3) The presence of billions and billions of other galaxies is a stumbling block for creationists of other religions. Galaxies that we can only detect mathematically and cannot observe- why do they exist if we're alone? Not "to glorify God" since they're only detectable through complex equations (differential geometry in Robertson-Walker form I suppose). These other galaxies serve a purpose in LDS theology.

4) Radioactive isotopes dating billions of years old- since matter is eternal in your theology, I can simply say that it's been 4.55 billion years (if we're dealing with lunar rocks, terrestrial samples, or local meteorites) since that matter has left a supernova explosion- but it existed in smaller forms prior to that. If I were creationist and a Protestant, claiming the universe was 10,000 years old, I'd be dead meat on that blatant contradiction to creationism.

Right now, I am forced to explain this away through the big bang theory. The universe is expanding and cooling still; the CMB exists as a fossil of the initial hot and dense state; the other galaxies are mere lifeless side effects of the big bang.

And I accept evolution, partly, because now that I've accepted the big bang what else am I to do? Other reasons include various methods such as endogenous retrovirus insertions, vestigial structures, etc. but if I ever became LDS, I would drop both theories in a heartbeat and work towards settling those inconsistencies in geobiology.

Science means a lot to me and so being able to hold to LDS theology would greatly improve my options regarding it. Thanks for being patient, and this is not a hoax- I am sincerely seeking truth, if this is where it is to be found.

God bless you for your patience.

Nick--being LDS does NOT require that you drop a scientific view of the universe. There ARE SOME LDS that will tell you otherwise, but they are of the narrow minded ilk that make up only ONE view of the gospel. There are many faithful LDS that harmonize modern science with mormonism. They do not find it necessary to take Genesis literally, nor do they find it necessary to insist on a young earth, nor reject big bang nor evolution.

There are some in the LDS church that are very much like protestant fundamentalists in their literalistic view of scripture. They often think that theirs is the ONLY Godly view. It's not. The LDS church has room for a wide spectrum of views and opinions on how and why the earth was created. Contrary to what some lds think, you are free to believe as you wish, especially about things like the creation, age of the earth, evolution (man, plants and animal etc). You need not steer clear of the church because of the fundamentalist literalists among us, even though they seem to be the most vocal and "rightous" among us.

[Jason]

good post, cal.

[Lindy]

I agree with Jason.....good post Cal!

[Traveler]

Nidk: I am LDS and I have respect for evolution and the Big Bang theory.

I also understand that Science does not have all the answers. Such as why the Big Bang went off Late - there is far too much matter and energy in the universe to be contained - The Big Bang could have created a much smaller universe - and why is there no evidence of containment. BTW - What's up with the "Big Attractor"? Just dark matter and maybe dark energy?

I just believe that G-d is not what cannot be explained. I think that he is our father is important to understand. You appear to have a good mind just don't fall over trying to miss the cracks in the sidewalk - There is so much more to see - if you are going to stumble because your mind is somewhere else stumble over kindness to your enemies.

The Traveler

[Setheus]

I think the best way to try and understand the Lord and His creations and our theorys on this subject is to employ the "KISS" method.

Keep

It

Simple

Stupid

B)

[Lindy]

Originally posted by Setheus@Jun 4 2004, 08:49 PM

I think the best way to try and understand the Lord and His creations and our theorys on this subject is to employ the "KISS" method.

Keep

It

Simple

Stupid

B)

Best advice.....

I agree..

[Nicodemus]

Well, I'm not sure what the big attractor is, but if you're speaking of the cosmological constant I think that the current explanation is primarily exotic matter, instead of dark matter. That is a common misconception. This must be a particle or a scattered conglomerate of them that are PRECISELY between 1 x 10^123 and 1 x 10^124 (cannot remember which unit they used of measurement unfortunately-daltons?) in size. If indeed dark matter is found to be the big attractor, WIMPS pretty much stand as the dominant theory regarding this.

But, if you're lds and hold to the big bang theory:

1) How does this fit with the concept that "matter is eternal."? Especially since scientifically neither quarks nor protons, neutrons, and electrons are eternal. How does this fit with the whole idea of material eternality?

2) Hinckley stands against evolution (organic evolution as he calls it). At what point is what he believes and claims cross the threshold from opinion or idle speech to prophecy and divine truth? Is everything he believes and says infallible, as a prophet? If not, how do we know which of his claims are infallible and which aren't? Isn't this the very reason why a prophet exists supposedly- to guide and direct and clear up confusion to give a very specific instruction? I hear that modern prophets exist to clarify and give specific truths on various things. The function of prophets is nonexistent if we can't tell which of his words to believe and which not to. Am I being unclear- sometimes my writing has a way of being scattered and incoherent?

You're the man I wanted to talk to since you seem to be the most experienced and well-grounded lds here regarding their faith and defenses of it. What is your advice on my praying about the BOM? About receiving a direct revelation, etc.?

[Guest Starsky]

You know the scripture in Moroni 10:4-5 right? You may know the truth of ALL things through the power of the Holy Ghost.