Rodney Posted June 12, 2004 Report Posted June 12, 2004 Originally posted by Snow@Jun 12 2004, 10:51 AM Seriously, I would like your opinion as a former believer-turned provacateur. Are Mormons as a people any more mindless than non-Mormons?Seriously? Yes. They've been instructed how to love, live, eat, dress and die.Do Mormons put any less conscience thought and choice into their life-view than do non's?Seriously? Yes. They are free from the burden of conscious thought. The thinking has been done for them.Think about rank and file sheep that are led around by their nose to follow the vageries of popular opinion and culture......and I think of Mormons.
Lindy Posted June 12, 2004 Report Posted June 12, 2004 Originally posted by Rodney@Jun 12 2004, 10:17 AM Do Mormons put any less conscience thought and choice into their life-view than do non's?Seriously? Yes. They are free from the burden of conscious thought. The thinking has been done for them. That's where I think your wrong Harv.. free from the burden of conscious thought? I don't think so..... interesting statement though "The thinking has been done for them" Made me THINK for a minute.
Snow Posted June 12, 2004 Report Posted June 12, 2004 I say bull. Who cares if they have been instructed. That is not the point. The point is do people think and consiously choose. I, like of of us I'm sure, interact with 100's of people every day. I have a hundred some non-Mormons working for me. I never ceased to be amazed at how little people think. They take their cues for the culture, from the media, from thier peer group and do it all blindly, all the while not even realizing it. Mormons group-think may be more noticible because it is different from greater society and when it comes to that one part of their lives - religion - they have greater unity but that doesn't make them less thoughtful. Let me put it a different way and answer truthfully if you want to stop jabbing for a minute. Do you think that you are more given to self-introspection, knowledge collection, analytical review and inquiry than am I?
Rodney Posted June 12, 2004 Report Posted June 12, 2004 Originally posted by Snow@Jun 12 2004, 11:29 AM Do you think that you are more given to self-introspection, knowledge collection, analytical review and inquiry than am I? If permitted here, I would respond with the second half of that phrase, i.e., Bull-ess. Which leads me to say why I don't appreciate your question. It seems you're looking for a quantified answer and I have no idea how much more or less I'm given to knowledge collection than any other human being. But, I've a feeling that whatever self-introspection or analytical inquiry I may be involved with, it is done with a less constrained filter than the one your Mormon indoctrinization has imposed upon you and your ilk. Capeesh?
Snow Posted June 12, 2004 Report Posted June 12, 2004 Originally posted by Rodney@Jun 12 2004, 10:42 AM But, I've a feeling that whatever self-introspection or analytical inquiry I may be involved with, it is done with a less constrained filter than the one your Mormon indoctrinization has imposed upon you and your ilk. Capeesh? Oh I understand your point but I don't buy it. It is a pretty pat answer but I have never seen anyone make much of an argument for it.Why is a Mormon filter any more of a reality than whatever filters non-Mormons have? I pick and choose in life to whatever extent I want to pick and choose. Because I pick and choose things Mormon doesn't mean that I have a faulty picking process. You just don't like the choices, it seems to me, so you say that the process must be constrained.
Guest Chell Posted June 12, 2004 Report Posted June 12, 2004 Originally posted by Rodney+Jun 12 2004, 05:42 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Rodney @ Jun 12 2004, 05:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Snow@Jun 12 2004, 11:29 AM Do you think that you are more given to self-introspection, knowledge collection, analytical review and inquiry than am I? If permitted here, I would respond with the second half of that phrase, i.e., Bull-ess. Which leads me to say why I don't appreciate your question. It seems you're looking for a quantified answer and I have no idea how much more or less I'm given to knowledge collection than any other human being. I really doubt that you could experience 'a less constrained filter than the one our Mormon instructional has allowed us and our ilk. Capeesh?'You see, one can't see, without the Holy Ghost. One is blind without it. You are the one with a major constrained filter called darkness.Each child in the church is given this great gift of the Holy Ghost early on. We are taught what it is and how to listen to it from the cradle.Therefore, we are making very very very informed decisions when we choose to stay with the church inspite of all of the 'history' that blows the 'lesser guided' folks away.
Tr2 Posted June 12, 2004 Report Posted June 12, 2004 One day you might have a testimony, and the next day you could lose it all because of an experience you hadNobody can ever take an experience away from you. It either happened, or it didn't.Are you calling me a liar?No. Anything you believe, is truth in your own life. Anything you have experienced, is the same thing. However When I said that I didn't buy it, I meant I didn't buy what most LDS seem to consider a testimony. i will use an example that was recently given on this board;I believe that God the father and his son Jesus Christ live and love each one of us.I believe that this is the true restored church that began so many years ago.I believe that Joseph Smith was one of Gods choice childeren and was a holy prophet.I believe that the Bible and the Book of mormon are the path back to our Father in Heaven.I believe in the plan of salvation and in reality it is the plan of happiness.In the name of Jesus Christ Amen.This is not a testimony. It is a statement of belief. There is no personal experience required to say it. I could say it and probably convince others that I believe it, even though I don't. I don't buy this as a testimony, that is what I meant. It's along the lines of any other relgious creed out there. It's important to know what you believe, which this does illustrate clearly, but doesn't do much in the way of indicate why you believe it. Testimonies are basically our life experiences telling why you believe what you believe. So no, I wasn't calling you a liar. It's really nothing more than the misuse of a word that carries a lot of significance.I started out by stating that I had FINALLY gained a testimony of prayer.Now that is different. I won't ask for specifics. But I assume that God has changed something in your life through prayer. That is a testimony.Tr2 said he had seen and heard “the LDS testimony”, which seems to lump the testimonies of all LDS together.I say that because most of what I've heard seems to be the same thing. I know what LDS believe because I've been told what they believe so many times.Who takes 2 years out of their life at the peak of the youth - on their own dime - to serve the Lord, 24/7?Who has a lay clergy that runs their own congregations?Who pays an actual tithe?Who, upon conversion, picked up their families and possession and from all-over the world, gathered into the idea of a modern day Zion and continued to do so until asked to say in their home countries and grow the gospel there?Who extends their committments to their covenants to their clothing and eating habits?Who would, if told by the prophet, to pick up and march to New Jerusalem, would actually do it?Why is everything a competition with you? Tell me, is it possible to do each one of those things out of fear of being rejected or fear of being considered not good enough for God?Tim Horton's (in Canada) gives 10% of its profits to charity and it does not have a testimony. How many would march if Marilyn Manson told them to? Do athiests not serve good causes in their youth, and have no testimony?Each of the things you mentioned are good things, but they do not indicate any type of relationship with God nor mean that a person has anything close to a testimony.Their believing and then there's action based on real faithTrue. And there is action base out of fear.Therefore, we are making very very very informed decisions when we choose to stay with the church inspite of all of the 'history' that blows the 'lesser guided' folks awayThe "lesser guided" folks? I can try and empathize with that except I don't think my head will fit that far up my rear.
Guest Chell Posted June 12, 2004 Report Posted June 12, 2004 Therefore, we are making very very very informed decisions when we choose to stay with the church inspite of all of the 'history' that blows the 'lesser guided' folks away The "lesser guided" folks? I can try and empathize with that except I don't think my head will fit that far up my rear. Aside from being totally low minded, this statement also is completely false, because your head is already there.
Snow Posted June 12, 2004 Report Posted June 12, 2004 Originally posted by Tr2@Jun 12 2004, 11:33 AM I believe that God the father and his son Jesus Christ live and love each one of us.I believe that this is the true restored church that began so many years ago.I believe that Joseph Smith was one of Gods choice childeren and was a holy prophet.I believe that the Bible and the Book of mormon are the path back to our Father in Heaven.I believe in the plan of salvation and in reality it is the plan of happiness.In the name of Jesus Christ Amen.This is not a testimony. It is a statement of belief. There is no personal experience required to say it. For those of you who don't understand the English language, let me provide the defintion of "testimony:"testimony SYLLABICATION: tes·ti·mo·nyPRONUNCIATION: tst-mnNOUN: Inflected forms: pl. tes·ti·mo·nies- A declaration by a witness under oath-Evidence in support of a fact or assertion-A public declaration regarding a religious experience-An assertion offering firsthand authentication of a fact; "according to his own testimony he can't do it" -A solemn statement -An assertion-An asseveration-A declarationSo we will all take note that Trident doesn't like the people word their testimony just as we can all take note that he is factually wrong.Trident, are you a French speaking Canadian?
Snow Posted June 12, 2004 Report Posted June 12, 2004 Originally posted by Tr2@Jun 12 2004, 11:33 AM Their believing and then there's action based on real faithTrue. And there is action base out of fear. And there are also people who believe that the ghosts of dead slaves were behind the Bermuda Triangle mystery but let's try and stay focus on the topic at hand.
Tr2 Posted June 12, 2004 Report Posted June 12, 2004 -Evidence in support of a fact or assertion-A public declaration regarding a religious experiencesnow, maybe you should start reading your own posts.
Tr2 Posted June 12, 2004 Report Posted June 12, 2004 Aside from being totally low minded, this statement also is completely false, because your head is already there. And I suppose your dad can beat up my dad?
Snow Posted June 12, 2004 Report Posted June 12, 2004 Originally posted by Tr2@Jun 12 2004, 12:24 PM -Evidence in support of a fact or assertion-A public declaration regarding a religious experiencesnow, maybe you should start reading your own posts. Let's see Mr. Gutton For Punishment. You criticized the posters testimony saying that is wasn't a testimony but those of us who actually know the English language realize that a testimony is-A public declaration regarding a religious experience or -An assertion offering firsthand authentication or -A solemn statement or -An assertion or -An asseveration or -A declaration.So yes, I read my own posts and thanks for mentioning but you got the definition wrong and if that wasn't enough, you tried to rebutt the definition by asking about it. Go get tiger.
Snow Posted June 12, 2004 Report Posted June 12, 2004 Originally posted by Tr2@Jun 12 2004, 12:25 PM Aside from being totally low minded, this statement also is completely false, because your head is already there. And I suppose your dad can beat up my dad? Why?Does he claim to be an Army Navy SEAL Ranger GI Joe too?
Tr2 Posted June 12, 2004 Report Posted June 12, 2004 If you ever have to testify for anything in court of law, test out your theory. You go ahead and tell what you believe, rather than what you actually saw, heard or experienced (you didn't happen to be on the OJ Simpson jury did you?). Your opinion counts for nothing, only your experience matters. The only people who are allowed to say what they believe are people who have years and years of experience behind them. nice try though.
Snow Posted June 12, 2004 Report Posted June 12, 2004 Do you just open up your Army SEAL lips and hope that the words that fall out make sense? If a person says what they say, they are saying what they believe. Is anyone trying to make the point that they are reporting what they don't believe? You just said that opinion counts for nothing but that is about as idiotic things as I have ever heard said. You contradict yourself in the very next sentence when you experts say what they believe. So which is it? Counts for nothing like you said, or counts for something like you said? Again, I ask; is English you 2nd language? ...but on second thought, I guess that if I had lost an argument, and if I didn't have any ethics, I might change the subject from a spiritual/religious testimony to a question of legal, albeit mistaken, testimony.
Guest enlightenme Posted June 12, 2004 Report Posted June 12, 2004 The only people who are allowed to say what they believe are people who have years and years of experience behind them. So, if an eight year old or someone really young, came up to you and said that they believed that some was ...say ... molesting them, you would not believe them because they don't have years and years of experience behind them??? Sorry to say there big guy, but we are all allllowed to have an opinion, a belief in something.... doesn't mean YOU have to believe it.... but some do.... may sound silly to you .... but I am sure that what you say sounds silly to people around you sometimes.... :)
Tr2 Posted June 13, 2004 Report Posted June 13, 2004 So, if an eight year old or someone really young, came up to you and said that they believed that some was ...say ... molesting them, you would not believe them because they don't have years and years of experience behind them??? Saying you were molested is saying that something happened to you. ie some experiencebut we are all allllowed to have an opinion, a belief in somethingI'm not trying to say that you're not allowed to believe something. I am just drawing a clear distinction between a testimony and a statement of faith. My statement of faith is something very close to the Nicene creed, but my testimony is my experiences and encounters with God. snow,I am finished discussing this with you because you are looking to do nothing more than pick a fight. You are deliberately detracting from the discussion to debate semantics. You know exactly what I am discussing, but you want to discuss something else. You know as well as I do that for somebody to say an LDS testimony, it requires no experiential knowledge, no proof, or experience with God to say. But I do have one last thing to quote. I said this earlier before you had such a problem with what I said.I think people object because they don't like their ideals to be messed around with, wheras the people who really want to go after God will do whatever it takes.
shanstress70 Posted June 13, 2004 Report Posted June 13, 2004 Originally posted by Chell@Jun 12 2004, 01:24 PM You see, one can't see, without the Holy Ghost. One is blind without it. You are the one with a major constrained filter called darkness.Each child in the church is given this great gift of the Holy Ghost early on. We are taught what it is and how to listen to it from the cradle.Therefore, we are making very very very informed decisions when we choose to stay with the church inspite of all of the 'history' that blows the 'lesser guided' folks away. Mormons aren't the only ones with the Holy Ghost. Sorry!'Lesser guided'? Some might say they are 'more guided' if they don't stay because of the history.
Guest Starsky Posted June 13, 2004 Report Posted June 13, 2004 Originally posted by shanstress70+Jun 13 2004, 01:30 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (shanstress70 @ Jun 13 2004, 01:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Chell@Jun 12 2004, 01:24 PM You see, one can't see, without the Holy Ghost. One is blind without it. You are the one with a major constrained filter called darkness.Each child in the church is given this great gift of the Holy Ghost early on. We are taught what it is and how to listen to it from the cradle.Therefore, we are making very very very informed decisions when we choose to stay with the church inspite of all of the 'history' that blows the 'lesser guided' folks away. Mormons aren't the only ones with the Holy Ghost. Sorry!'Lesser guided'? Some might say they are 'more guided' if they don't stay because of the history. Yeah, they might say that. But...if a written history ...that was written about things most do not understand and misjudge...because they don't have the Holy Ghost....isn't a valid replacement for the Holy Ghost in their decision to leave the church. Do you think?I don't think so. :)
Snow Posted June 13, 2004 Report Posted June 13, 2004 Originally posted by Tr2@Jun 13 2004, 12:48 PM snow,I am finished discussing this with you because you are looking to do nothing more than pick a fight. You are deliberately detracting from the discussion to debate semantics. You know how sometimes you have to shake your head, rub your eyes and stop laughing because you have just read something that is so, so squirrelly?You are complaining about:1. Arguing semantics.... You are the one who complained about another's "testimony" because it didn't match your own (and incorrect) definition of testimony! Do you know what "semantics" means?2. Picking fight... You are the one whose sole stated purpose for posting on this board is to fight against Mormons calling themselves "Christian" and said that you won't leave until Mormons stop.
Nicodemus Posted June 13, 2004 Report Posted June 13, 2004 Someone please close this thread. I don't like the direction that the momentum of this conversation is taking us.
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