Interesting

[Maya]

Ok I may be a bit slow gettign this, but here is something that just hit me:

WHY would the language of my fathers, be emphasized so much in the BOM if they had been using the language from Jerusalem everyday. To me it looks like their language changed as they moved to the promised land... maybe they learned the language of the people in the new country... alike we do as we move to an other country.

Before I tought that they would spek their native language and live undisturbed of the possible other cultures around them... but why emphasize if that would be the case.

My oldest son is able to understand and talk some of my native laguage and I do emphasize that, I tell people he can finnish...

1 Ne. 1: 2, 15

2 Yea, I make a record in the alanguage of my father, which consists of the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians.

• • •

15 And after this manner was the language of my father in the praising of his God; for his soul did rejoice, and his whole heart was filled, because of the things which he had seen, yea, which the Lord had shown unto him.

1 Ne. 5: 3, 6

3 And after this manner of language had my mother complained against my father.

• • •

6 And after this manner of language did my father, Lehi, acomfort my mother, Sariah, concerning us, while we journeyed in the wilderness up to the land of Jerusalem, to obtain the record of the Jews.

Omni 1: 18, 22

18 But it came to pass that Mosiah caused that they should be taught in his alanguage. And it came to pass that after they were taught in the language of Mosiah, Zarahemla gave a genealogy of his fathers, according to his memory; and they are written, but bnot in these plates.

• • •

22 It also spake a few words concerning his fathers. And his first parents came out from the atower, at the time the Lord bconfounded the language of the people; and the severity of the Lord fell upon them according to his judgments, which are just; and their cbones lay scattered in the land northward.

Mosiah 1: 2, 4

2 And it came to pass that he had three asons; and he called their names Mosiah, and Helorum, and Helaman. And he caused that they should be btaught in all the clanguage of his fathers, that thereby they might become men of understanding; and that they might know concerning the prophecies which had been spoken by the mouths of their fathers, which were delivered them by the hand of the Lord.

• • •

4 For it were not possible that our father, Lehi, could have remembered all these things, to have taught them to his children, except it were for the help of these plates; for he having been taught in the alanguage of the Egyptians therefore he could read these engravings, and teach them to his children, that thereby they could teach them to their children, and so fulfilling the commandments of God, even down to this present time.

1 Ne. 3: 19

19 And behold, it is wisdom in God that we should obtain these arecords, that we may preserve unto our children the language of our fathers;

1 Ne. 10: 15

15 And after this manner of language did my father prophesy and speak unto my brethren, and also many more things which I do not write in this book; for I have written as many of them as were expedient for me in mine aother book.

1 Ne. 17: 22

22 And we know that the people who were in the land of Jerusalem were a arighteous people; for they kept the statutes and judgments of the Lord, and all his commandments, according to the law of Moses; wherefore, we know that they are a righteous people; and our father hath judged them, and hath led us away because we would hearken unto his words; yea, and our brother is like unto him. And after this manner of language did my brethren murmur and complain against us.

Enos 1: 1

1 Behold, it came to pass that I, aEnos, knowing my father that bhe was a just man—for he ctaught me in his language, and also in the dnurture and admonition of the Lord—and blessed be the name of my God for it—

Mosiah 9: 1

1 aI, bZeniff, having been taught in all the language of the Nephites, and having had a knowledge of the land of cNephi, or of the land of our fathers’ first inheritance, *and having been sent as a spy among the Lamanites that I might spy out their forces, that our army might come upon them and destroy them—but when I saw that which was good among them I was desirous that they should not be destroyed.

Alma 26: 24

24 For they said unto us: Do ye suppose that ye can bring the Lamanites to the knowledge of the truth? Do ye suppose that ye can convince the Lamanites of the aincorrectness of the btraditions of their fathers, as cstiffnecked a people as they are; whose hearts delight in the dshedding of blood; whose days have been spent in the grossest iniquity; whose ways have been the ways of a transgressor from the beginning? Now my brethren, ye remember that this was their language.

[rameumptom]

In many cultures, there is an aristocratic language, and then the language of the people. The Nephites leaders that wrote what we have as the Book of Mormon would have been part of the erudite group: kings, priests, chief judges, generals.

It is interesting that some of the peoples Alma taught disregarded him as chief priest, stating that he no longer had any control over them now that he no longer was chief judge.

We often have an unreal idea when it comes to Nephites absorbing other cultures. When King Mosiah I discovered the people of Zarahemla, he had to teach them the language, and then the Nephites settled there. Well, it isn't as exact as that. Mosiah probably taught the language to Zarahemla, the king of the Mulekite group; but the majority of them would have continued speaking their own language(s). The Nephites did not move into every other house, but would have built a Nephite section of the town of Zarahemla, or perhaps move into other areas nearby. We see this even today, with little Chinatowns and latin sections of most cities. Even after several generations, many of the people prefer speaking their "native" tongue and living their own culture, even though they are now Americans.

Decades later, we see Capt Moroni building sister-cities that seem to separate the Mulekites and Nephites. The towns of Lehi and Morianton are very typical of this, one being a Nephite name and the other a Mulekite/Jaredite name.

How does a Jaredite name become a Mulekite name? Cultural contamination. The Mulekites landed north of the narrow neck of land and later migrated south to create Zarahemla. The man Zarahemla was still alive when Mosiah arrived, so the town of Zarahemla was created no later than 250BC. Since King Coriantumr dwelt with them for 9 moons, we can determine that the Jaredite destruction actually occurred about that timeframe. This fits in with the description of the Mulekites, who had lost their original language and culture, and had picked up Jaredite names that suddenly come into the Nephite lexicon. We also see Jaredite-like actions being done by Mulekites (insurrections, king-men, anti-Christ preachers, Gadianton robbers). The Mulekites dwelt with the Jaredites for about 350 years, when things got very violent and ugly, so the Mulekites left.

In Mesoamerica, it was very common for an area to become over-crowded, and wars to begin for land conquest. Mosiah's move was forced by Lamanites south of him, but allowed him to conquer another group (Mulekites) to the north. King Zarahemla probably became a vassal king under the sovereign Mosiah I, as that was the common manner anciently in Mesoamerica. Whether the Mulekites were actually happy about being taken over or not, depends on the individual. We have many that attempt insurrections, or sneak off to the Lamanites (Amalickiah) or robbers. They seem to have caused the descendants of Zoram to also become upset with the domineering Nephite theocracy and to start their own fiefdom/vassal-ship.

So, in reading these things, it is often important for us to see how cultural contamination and differences created the struggles and strifes they had.

[skalenfehl]

I think the reason they said this is because languages and dialects evolve with the use of abbreviations, slang and every day expressions. Just think about it. If the slang or expressions changed as much as ours (America) has (consider comparisons from midwestern American dialect to Southern American dialects y'all) then it would probably be harder for each generation to be consistent in writing the history. Latin, for example is dead, but because of it, there's no room for slangs or dialects to evolve (although there are many latin based languages now like Spanish, Portugese, Italian, etc).

They did speak the language of their fathers (Lehi and Nephi) as they came out of Jerusalem. There was no language of the new country because the promised land had no other inhabitants (Jaredites long gone). While the language of the Nephites and surely the Lamanites evolved with their cultures, their (Nephites) understanding of the scriptures (plates of brass, gold plates) was still passed down so that they could pass it down.

The BoM prophets further down the line also wrote of their "weakness" in writing. They did their very best according to their understanding to write in reformed Egyptian (writing of their fathers) according to the understanding of their fathers (Hebrew) because of the limited size of the plates. Anyway, this is my understanding. Hope I helped a little.

[WillowTheWhisp]

Are you sure there were no other inhabitants in the land when they arrived?

[tiancum]

Well, for sure there was Coriantumr. He was cursed to be the LAST Jaredite.

As for others...who knows

[WillowTheWhisp]

I prefer to remain open minded on the subject but it seems more likely that there would be others. There seem to be an awful lot of people to have descended from one couple in a few hundred years.

[rameumptom]

Yes and no, is the answer. There were others on the American continents, but perhaps not in the exact region where they landed.

I do know that there's no way that Nephi could have built a temple like Solomon's with only a few dozen people. Clearly, they ran across peoples several times, but these contacts were kept limited because it was not needed for the precious things Nephi wanted kept in the small plates. Interestingly, the one main contact point occurs just before the small plates end and Mormon begins his abridgement of the large plates.

And chances are Ether was wrong that all the Jaredites were slain. It is possible that other groups also slipped away in the night, as did the Mulekites.

[FigBearingThistle]

Ok I may be a bit slow gettign this, but here is something that just hit me:

WHY would the language of my fathers, be emphasized so much in the BOM if they had been using the language from Jerusalem everyday. To me it looks like their language changed as they moved to the promised land... maybe they learned the language of the people in the new country... alike we do as we move to an other country.

Before I tought that they would spek their native language and live undisturbed of the possible other cultures around them... but why emphasize if that would be the case.

My oldest son is able to understand and talk some of my native laguage and I do emphasize that, I tell people he can finnish...

1 Ne. 1: 2, 15

2 Yea, I make a record in the alanguage of my father, which consists of the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians.

• • •

15 And after this manner was the language of my father in the praising of his God; for his soul did rejoice, and his whole heart was filled, because of the things which he had seen, yea, which the Lord had shown unto him.

1 Ne. 5: 3, 6

3 And after this manner of language had my mother complained against my father.

• • •

6 And after this manner of language did my father, Lehi, acomfort my mother, Sariah, concerning us, while we journeyed in the wilderness up to the land of Jerusalem, to obtain the record of the Jews.

Omni 1: 18, 22

18 But it came to pass that Mosiah caused that they should be taught in his alanguage. And it came to pass that after they were taught in the language of Mosiah, Zarahemla gave a genealogy of his fathers, according to his memory; and they are written, but bnot in these plates.

• • •

22 It also spake a few words concerning his fathers. And his first parents came out from the atower, at the time the Lord bconfounded the language of the people; and the severity of the Lord fell upon them according to his judgments, which are just; and their cbones lay scattered in the land northward.

Mosiah 1: 2, 4

2 And it came to pass that he had three asons; and he called their names Mosiah, and Helorum, and Helaman. And he caused that they should be btaught in all the clanguage of his fathers, that thereby they might become men of understanding; and that they might know concerning the prophecies which had been spoken by the mouths of their fathers, which were delivered them by the hand of the Lord.

• • •

4 For it were not possible that our father, Lehi, could have remembered all these things, to have taught them to his children, except it were for the help of these plates; for he having been taught in the alanguage of the Egyptians therefore he could read these engravings, and teach them to his children, that thereby they could teach them to their children, and so fulfilling the commandments of God, even down to this present time.

1 Ne. 3: 19

19 And behold, it is wisdom in God that we should obtain these arecords, that we may preserve unto our children the language of our fathers;

1 Ne. 10: 15

15 And after this manner of language did my father prophesy and speak unto my brethren, and also many more things which I do not write in this book; for I have written as many of them as were expedient for me in mine aother book.

1 Ne. 17: 22

22 And we know that the people who were in the land of Jerusalem were a arighteous people; for they kept the statutes and judgments of the Lord, and all his commandments, according to the law of Moses; wherefore, we know that they are a righteous people; and our father hath judged them, and hath led us away because we would hearken unto his words; yea, and our brother is like unto him. And after this manner of language did my brethren murmur and complain against us.

Enos 1: 1

1 Behold, it came to pass that I, aEnos, knowing my father that bhe was a just man—for he ctaught me in his language, and also in the dnurture and admonition of the Lord—and blessed be the name of my God for it—

Mosiah 9: 1

1 aI, bZeniff, having been taught in all the language of the Nephites, and having had a knowledge of the land of cNephi, or of the land of our fathers’ first inheritance, *and having been sent as a spy among the Lamanites that I might spy out their forces, that our army might come upon them and destroy them—but when I saw that which was good among them I was desirous that they should not be destroyed.

Alma 26: 24

24 For they said unto us: Do ye suppose that ye can bring the Lamanites to the knowledge of the truth? Do ye suppose that ye can convince the Lamanites of the aincorrectness of the btraditions of their fathers, as cstiffnecked a people as they are; whose hearts delight in the dshedding of blood; whose days have been spent in the grossest iniquity; whose ways have been the ways of a transgressor from the beginning? Now my brethren, ye remember that this was their language.

I wonder about the origins of the Brass Plates--why they were written in Egyptian. Obviously some record keepers and Hebrews must have kept up on their Egyptian. (At least the written language). Lehi understood and could write Egyptian script. He must have also understood the Hebrew tongue because he was a prophet in Jerusalem. Having a written record (brass plates) by which they could maintain and preserve their written language says something.

When King Mosiah the First, took his people and met up with the Mulekites, even though the Mulekites were more numerous, the Nephites became the dominant culture because of the preservation of their language.

Interesting thoughts though.

[rameumptom]

The Brass Plates were written in Reformed Egyptian. This is a style that has been found in other ancient Middle Eastern documents, where Egyptian hieroglyphics or demotic is used to write another language.

The probable reasons are these: First, Israel and Egypt have had a long history. Many of the Israelites leaving Egypt with Moses would have known the Egyptian language. Archeology has shown that King Hezekiah was very pro-Egyptian. His signets often had scarabs and other Egyptian markings on them. The Northern Tribe sought to Egypt to protect them from Assyria. Also, writing on metals was a difficult and slow process. To write in Egyptian letters allowed for less space to be used and fewer scratches to make the characters.

[FigBearingThistle]

The Brass Plates were written in Reformed Egyptian. This is a style that has been found in other ancient Middle Eastern documents, where Egyptian hieroglyphics or demotic is used to write another language.

I don't think we can say that the Brass Plates were written in Reformed Egyptian. We are told in the BoM that they were written in Egyptian. And, yes, there were several forms of Egyptian script. But the term "Reformed Egyptian" is used both as a noun and an adjective in the BoM. It is a adjective because it describes that it is a alteration style of Egyptian script. It is a Noun because it describes a "unique" style of altered Egyptian that the Nephites themselves developed.

Mormon 9: 32

32 And now, behold, we have written this record according to our knowledge, in the characters which are called among us the reformed Egyptian, being handed down and altered by us, according to our manner of speech.

The probable reasons are these: First, Israel and Egypt have had a long history. Many of the Israelites leaving Egypt with Moses would have known the Egyptian language. Archeology has shown that King Hezekiah was very pro-Egyptian. His signets often had scarabs and other Egyptian markings on them. The Northern Tribe sought to Egypt to protect them from Assyria. Also, writing on metals was a difficult and slow process. To write in Egyptian letters allowed for less space to be used and fewer scratches to make the characters.

This sounds plausible to me.

1 Nephi 5:16 And thus my father, Lehi, did discover the genealogy of his fathers. And Laban also was a descendant of Joseph, wherefore he and his fathers had kept the records.

Perhaps Joseph (sold into Egypt) was instrumental in the preservation of the Brass Plates at some time.

[Abraham]

FARMS has provided many articles on the difficulties with demographics of the wars in short amount of time numbers wise, if Lehi was the only family in the promised land. As we read in II Nephi 29:7, there were many peoples on the earth that had been spirited away onto the islands of the sea and other lands. That is where the other scripures will be coming from and pretty soon too (whatever that means). We know that we will be adding to our own standard works besides the sealed portion of the BOM. NA Maxwell said that we will need a little red wagon to carry our scriptures in when we go to church. There is no way that 50,000 warriors could have been killed, not to mention the survivors if Lehi, or if you like, Nephi, and Laman, Lemuel, were the only ones left to propogate.

Also, remember that Lehi was from the tribe of Manasseh, and Ishmael povided the blood line from Ephraim. Just thoght you'd like to know where the two sons of Joseph were represented by the Lord.

Abraham

[FigBearingThistle]

FARMS has provided many articles on the difficulties with demographics of the wars in short amount of time numbers wise, if Lehi was the only family in the promised land. As we read in II Nephi 29:7, there were many peoples on the earth that had been spirited away onto the islands of the sea and other lands. That is where the other scripures will be coming from and pretty soon too (whatever that means). We know that we will be adding to our own standard works besides the sealed portion of the BOM. NA Maxwell said that we will need a little red wagon to carry our scriptures in when we go to church. There is no way that 50,000 warriors could have been killed, not to mention the survivors if Lehi, or if you like, Nephi, and Laman, Lemuel, were the only ones left to propogate.

Also, remember that Lehi was from the tribe of Manasseh, and Ishmael povided the blood line from Ephraim. Just thoght you'd like to know where the two sons of Joseph were represented by the Lord.

Abraham

Yes, for me it fits in well with the idea that the blood of Israel would be sprinkled throughout the earth, including sprinkled among possible non-Abrahamic ancestors in the Americas.

Remember, though, Zoram, Sam, Jacob, Joseph, Lehi's daughters and the sons and daughters Ishmael, and the Mulekites--all coming into play before the really big wars are mentioned. I tend to think that not all the Jaredite ancestors were destroyed, rather that the civilization was destroyed. I tend to think there were others here when Lehi and Mulek arrived. But on the other hand, if they had large families, they could easily double in size every 12 1/2 years, and 10 married couples could become a million people in a couple of hundred years. But I'm not going to commit my faith either way on this one, because to do so, sets me up for possibly being shaken some day.

[rameumptom]

And your prognosis is probably correct. Of the Mesoamerican civilizations, many were destroyed, but the peoples were absorbed into the new civilizations. The reason we were able to break the Maya language code, is because Mayan continued as a living language throughout the Aztec Empire and into the Spanish Conquest. One Mayan codex from the Spanish conquest period helped scholars translate the language.

Nephi stated that there was a temple built within 20 years after arriving in the New World. That being the case, it would have required several hundred or thousand people to build it. Or, they could have taken a temple already in place, and adapted it to a Jewish Temple. Still, this would have required many workers and it would have required a temple that was already built by people here.

[darrel]

I heard that the brass plates were actually the temple records. Does anyone know if that is true.

[rameumptom]

No, the Brass Plates were not the temple records. The temple was under control by the Priestly and Deuteronomist factions. The Brass Plates are clearly an "E" version of the scriptures, coming from the Northern Tribes. Had they been temple records, they would have supported the Aaronic priest movement, rather than the E movement of altars in the wilderness, and patriarchal lifestyle. The Deuteronomists caused the Josian Reforms, which included removing all of Yahweh's altars from the high places, removing the Tree of Life from the Temple (note Lehi/Nephi's Vision of the Tree of Life as a Temple endowment), etc.

[Maya]

Thank you it has been interesting to read the answers.

rameumpton said: We often have an unreal idea when it comes to Nephites absorbing other cultures. When King Mosiah I discovered the people of Zarahemla, he had to teach them the language, and then the Nephites settled there. Well, it isn't as exact as that. Mosiah probably taught the language to Zarahemla, the king of the Mulekite group; but the majority of them would have continued speaking their own language(s). The Nephites did not move into every other house, but would have built a Nephite section of the town of Zarahemla, or perhaps move into other areas nearby. We see this even today, with little Chinatowns and latin sections of most cities. Even after several generations, many of the people prefer speaking their "native" tongue and living their own culture, even though they are now Americans.

I agree, well said!

I think Lehites wanted to keep to themselves and not mingle too much with those outside of their own religion. My tought is that the laamanitties mingled more with outsiders and were not that strict on marrying to the right religion and thus they become a mix of different peoples pretty fast especially after the Nephites were gone, probably got the darker colour too.

Languages do alter in a few years a bit and take words from other important languages. Like I have been gone from Finland most of the time of the computers... so I have no clue of the computer language there... There must have been many unknown words, many animals they did not even have words for in this new place.

[skalenfehl]

Yes and no, is the answer. There were others on the American continents, but perhaps not in the exact region where they landed.

I do know that there's no way that Nephi could have built a temple like Solomon's with only a few dozen people.

It's interesting to consider (pure conjecture) the possibility that there were others (leftover stragglers from Mulekites? Jaredites??), but from my perspective, and it's only the humble opinion of one person, the land of promise was reserved for select people (Jaredites, Mulekites, and Lehites) provided that they followed the commandments of the Lord lest they be wiped from the land as the Jaredites were. I agree that Nephi would have needed hundreds of thousands of hands to complete the temple if he had built it with all the same materials (quarry stones for the foundation and ext walls, etc, cedar walls and ceiling, fir for the floors, etc) as described in 1 Kings 6, which Nephi had access to from the brass plates but those same materials were not available to him, although the workmanship was "exceedingly fine". He did teach his people to work with all manner of materials and they became very industrious.

Nephi's temple

If Nephi could build a ship fit for the ocean in a short amount of time with his brothers after making the necessary tools, I can believe that he built the temple in his lifetime with just a couple dozen people. Just my opinion, though. Speaking of "exceedinlgy fine", here's a great article that I read about 20 years ago in an old church magazine that pays tribute to Nephi's talents and abilities, just as a footnote. Enjoy.

Nephi, A Universal Man