Dear434 Posted March 20, 2008 Report Share Posted March 20, 2008 Examining both sides of any story is sometimes beneficial and sometimes it is not. In relation to the revealed word(anything testified by the power of the Holy Spirit). There is no need to examine a second source. Why? Because it is the only source of revelation from God. However in temporal or physical things, there is often more than one view. Speculation can have more than one view. So can opinions. However, when we deal with the truth, there is only truth. Truth is truth because it is truth. God reveals truth by revelation. He reveals by the power of the Holy Ghost. Why take a second look at a truth(for the purpose of knowing if it is really true) if you have been born witness that it is true? God does not lie.Well, I can most certainly agree with that! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dear434 Posted March 20, 2008 Report Share Posted March 20, 2008 Well, could you explain the three men who visited Abraham, who were also angels? Two of these went on to visit Lot and destroy Sodom and Gomorrah.How about Jesus at the Mount of Transfiguration, where Moses and Elias appeared as angels? Peter was so impressed, he wanted to build a booth for all three.And then there's the Jewish tradition that the man/prophet Enoch was Metatron, the archangel.Traditionally, angels and men were the same substance as God. Different? Of course. But the same substance. I guess my three examples should help to see that.With all due respect, I disagree that your examples helped clarify anything. If you wouldn't mind, could you please quote your sources and not paraphrase what you think they say. Just because an angel can appear in the form of a man does not make them human. God, imho, is not a human being but that didn't stop Him from taking on the form of a man in the person of Jesus Christ. I realize you see things differently, but to me, Man is finite and limited. God is not. I suppose one similarity we (Man) have with angels is that they (like us) are finite creatures as well. Unlike us, I don't believe angels have free will (or as Mormons call it "free agency"). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dear434 Posted March 20, 2008 Report Share Posted March 20, 2008 D&C 129 1-71 THERE are two kinds of beings in heaven, namely: Angels, who are resurrected personages, having bodies of flesh and bones—2 For instance, Jesus said: Handle me and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.3 Secondly: the spirits of just men made perfect, they who are not resurrected, but inherit the same glory.4 When a messenger comes saying he has a message from God, offer him your hand and request him to shake hands with you.5 If he be an angel he will do so, and you will feel his hand.6 If he be the spirit of a just man made perfect he will come in his glory; for that is the only way he can appear—7 Ask him to shake hands with you, but he will not move, because it is contrary to the order of heaven for a just man to deceive; but he will still deliver his message.I know that was your opinion, but I noticed the conversation between you and hemidakota and I figured this clarified what he was saying and what we know.How can an angel be a resurrected being if they haven't been born on earth yet?Hebrews 1:14Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dear434 Posted March 20, 2008 Report Share Posted March 20, 2008 3rdPersonViewer, thanks for reminding us that Jesus is known as the Great Angel of the Presence. Margaret Barker discusses this extensively in her book, the Great Angel.So, if Jesus is an angel, and Moses and Elias are angels, and Enoch, then I guess angels, Gods and men are of the same substance!I will have to see if I can find Margaret Barker's book. Sounds interesting. I assume you have this book? And if so, does she say that Jesus is "The Angel of the LORD" spoken of in the Old Testament? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemidakota Posted March 20, 2008 Report Share Posted March 20, 2008 How can an angel be a resurrected being if they haven't been born on earth yet?Hebrews 1:14Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation? Perhaps a sneak beyond the veil will reveal the truth. Hows your faith lately? Thirdperson is correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dear434 Posted March 20, 2008 Report Share Posted March 20, 2008 Perhaps a sneak beyond the veil will reveal the truth. Hows your faith lately? Thirdperson is correct.So you disagree with Hebrews 1:14? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemidakota Posted March 20, 2008 Report Share Posted March 20, 2008 Read D&C 78:88...The term ministering spirits embraces all angelic beings: whether spirits or resurrected personages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dear434 Posted March 20, 2008 Report Share Posted March 20, 2008 Read D&C 78:88...The term ministering spirits embraces all angelic beings: whether spirits or resurrected personagesI'll take the words of Jesus over Joseph any day."And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet." Luke 24:36-40ETA: BTW, I couldn't locate D&C 78:88. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemidakota Posted March 20, 2008 Report Share Posted March 20, 2008 Sorry, bad vision when reading: D&C 76:87-88 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a-train Posted March 20, 2008 Report Share Posted March 20, 2008 Hey Train,Wow-a lot has been added since the last time I logged in. I'm not quite sure but it seems that your assumption of the existence of the Earth (possibly that it is eternal) is leading to a misunderstanding of this issue and God. I don't see that as an issue relating to traversing an infinite. I believe God has always existed and created the world and time. It is not a progression of events/being from all of eternity such as the concept of god upon god forever back at infinitum. God is the uncaused cause and as such-started it all by the creation. Maybe a review of the logical error of traversing an infinite is needed but I don't have time to review it now. The addition of God having parents does change the situation in my mind. That is the whole issue with the traversing an infinite.No, there is no assumption that the earth is eternal. We both believe that Jesus is an Eternal Being who existed infinitely before His birth to the Virgin Mary (unless I am mistaken). So, Jesus is both Eternal AND has Parents. This is, of course, because His birth to Mary was not His beginning, but only another chapter in His infinite existance. Isn't that correct?-a-train Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dear434 Posted March 21, 2008 Report Share Posted March 21, 2008 Sorry, bad vision when reading: D&C 76:87-88It still calls them spirits and not men of flesh and blood (or bone). I noticed in verse 103 it says "These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie."Is verse 103 talking about those who will inherit Telestial glory? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a-train Posted March 21, 2008 Report Share Posted March 21, 2008 I guess this thread is off topic, but oh well, if you can't beat 'em,...Looking at the definition of the Hebrew term 'mal'ach' which is 'one charged with a mission' and also the Greek term 'angelos' which is 'messenger', I see no indication that their english translation 'angel' indicates any specific species of being.I see no reason why a human being could not fill this role, nor do I see any necessity nor any indication of some extra-terrestrial lifeform there.Samson's mother described the angel of the LORD that spoke to her thus: 'A man of God came unto me, and his countenance was like the countenance of an angel of God, very terrible:' (Judges 13:6)In many cases throughout the Old Testament, the people to whom the angels minister are unaware that they are anything but mere men until after spending some time with them, like Manoah, Gideon, Abraham, the men of Sodom, and others.In the first few chapters of Revelation, John is commanded to write letters to angels in different areas such as Ephesus and Sardis. Are we to understand that these angels who received rebuke in some cases there were not human? Could these have not been living Church leaders in the respective lands receiving instruction from John, the presiding Elder?If an angel is a specific extra-terrestrial species, then doesn't Rev. 12:7 at least indicate that Satan and his fallen counterparts are the same species as the angels of God who fought against the devil? Also, Matt 25:41 and 2 Peter 2:4?What indication do we have that angels are a different species than human?-a-train Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the Ogre Posted March 21, 2008 Report Share Posted March 21, 2008 Does "becoming perfect" mean achieving the ability to have children after we die and that those children will go on to become Gods?I've never heard that from any Christian teacher.Fortunately, I've never listened to the teaching of people who are doing what ever it takes to make a buck including posting distorted information about other faiths. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr T Posted March 21, 2008 Report Share Posted March 21, 2008 Jesus is infinite and the Father is infinite, yes. Jesus entered our time by taking on humanity. The "He dwelt among them" idea. So you don't think that the earth is eternal or you do? As laid out above, that is correct from my understanding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dear434 Posted March 21, 2008 Report Share Posted March 21, 2008 Fortunately, I've never listened to the teaching of people who are doing what ever it takes to make a buck including posting distorted information about other faiths.Who would that be? Examples? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemidakota Posted March 21, 2008 Report Share Posted March 21, 2008 It still calls them spirits and not men of flesh and blood (or bone). I noticed in verse 103 it says "These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie."Is verse 103 talking about those who will inherit Telestial glory?Yes. It is the principle of resurrection. All will be resurrected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemidakota Posted March 21, 2008 Report Share Posted March 21, 2008 Jesus is infinite and the Father is infinite, yes. Jesus entered our time by taking on humanity. The "He dwelt among them" idea. So you don't think that the earth is eternal or you do? As laid out above, that is correct from my understanding.The earth will be gloried. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemidakota Posted March 21, 2008 Report Share Posted March 21, 2008 To becoming GODS? I am searching for the one who bears the immortal name 'JESUS CHRIST' [what ever it referred to in the pure language] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a-train Posted March 21, 2008 Report Share Posted March 21, 2008 Jesus is infinite and the Father is infinite, yes. Jesus entered our time by taking on humanity. The "He dwelt among them" idea. So you don't think that the earth is eternal or you do? As laid out above, that is correct from my understanding.I don't believe the earth always existed, but it was created by the LORD. The LORD however, has always existed. My question is about the 'traversing an infinite' problem. We say that the Saviour 'took on humanity' and was born of the Virgin Mary. Thus, He was both Eternal AND He was born and lived on the earth just as we have and do. Where do you see the 'traversing infinity' issue come into play and how?-a-train Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemidakota Posted March 21, 2008 Report Share Posted March 21, 2008 Doctor T is correct. The elements have always exisited. It is matter how we observed it from our location. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemidakota Posted March 21, 2008 Report Share Posted March 21, 2008 What is Intelligence when it is nothing more than 'I AM'? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr T Posted March 21, 2008 Report Share Posted March 21, 2008 I agree with you Train, the Lord created all. I'll have to lay out the traversing an infinite in an endless series of events issue later-when my friends leave town. ===Hey Hemi,You said, "...nothing more than 'I AM'" I see the "I AM" as an amazing claim sir. I take it as a definitive statement of being. Not just existing but as the Creator of existence. The whole idea that he is not dependent on anything-being self-sufficient is the amazing thing to me. I think God spoke creation into existence. He is the maker of matter not someone that "rearranged the matter to form the universe." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemidakota Posted March 21, 2008 Report Share Posted March 21, 2008 You need to start at the core or basics: "What is Intelligence? What is matter?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr T Posted March 21, 2008 Report Share Posted March 21, 2008 OK; you tell me what those are and if God is not the creator of the two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemidakota Posted March 21, 2008 Report Share Posted March 21, 2008 Do you have the LDS Scriptures? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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