Is the law of tithing for every member?

[Misshalfway]

I think that you are absolutely right about "buying" physical blessings. If someone has that attitude, they simply do not understand or perhaps do not understand fully. And that is perhaps ok because we all are in progress. The concept of tithing is taught over and over in church classes and meetings just for this very reason..... to give each person a chance to raise their understandings and in short, become more converted. It is clear to me, from many recent posts on tithing that we definitely need more lessons on the subject.

Does God reward and manipulate the physical world? Does he withhold from the unfaithful and disobedient? I think the best place to find the answers to these questions is in the scriptures. It is clear that the children of Israel experienced something similar in their comings and goings. The 10 commandments is a good example. The Lord had intended to give a higher law with higher blessings but because the people were wicked, they were given the 10 commandments and the lower law of moses. Many times the Lord has withdrawn his Spirit and his Priesthood from the earth because of wickedness. In the BOM, the righteous armies had the power of the Lord behind them. And in their missionary work, they experienced much influence from the Lord. In my own life, I can feel when the Holy Ghost has withdrawn from me. Like when I am teaching a lesson in Church and I know that I am only teaching with my earthly abilities. I know what it is like to teach with the Spirit and they are drastically different feelings. I can also tell, when I am given a blessing, the difference between someone who has the spirit and someone who doesn't. So, that helps me to see that God does withhold blessings. He does that to teach us. Sometimes the children of men are hard of hearing or stubborn in the arm of the flesh and God helps to remind them who he is. It is all done with Love because he wants his children to know him and know how he works and then he wants them to obey him because he is the only way to earthy and eternal happiness.

I think that it is also important to remember that God knows each one of us personally. He gives each one of us different circumstances. Why? Because he knows what we need. Sometimes having abundance is as much of a trial as not having it. I cannot judge the will of the Lord. But I do know this, that for those that have experienced spiritual knowledge, in or out of the church, God then requires more of them. And regardless of the blessings one may get vs another, the law of tithing is about obedience and faith. So maybe while you have recieved your "perks", God is waiting in the wings to see what you will choose before he blesses you with things like added faith and spiritual knowledge.

I was also thinking about the long term blessings that come to a person or family who pays tithing. The scriptures tell of the parable of the 10 virgins and their lamps of oil. 5 who were prepared and 5 who were not. In that long process of constant and diligence in obedience something is gained that the occasional observer will never know. It makes that person more refined and more prepared. Refiners fire stuff. Those who don't observe the law CAN't get what the others have no matter how giving those others may be. These are the kinds of blessings that come only for the individual who is dedicated and committed and with whom the Lord will be well pleased.

[DigitalShadow]

The concept of tithing is not really about punishment. It is about faith and blessings that reward faith and lead one to have some form of evidence and confirmation of their faith. I think it helps if you remember we think of God as our literal father and that He is raising us to the best things..... the things of the eternities. The law of tithing is a mechanism of producing and stretching faith. It is a teaching tool...... and a way for God to accomplish the purpose of the church on the earth. I don't think God is going around punishing every unknowing person for not paying tithing. Where there is no law, there is no punishment. And God DOES bless his children because he loves them. Whether they acknowledge him or not. Perhaps He has blessed you and will continue to bless you to prepare you for your great purpose here on the earth. I do that with my own children whether they clean their rooms or not to help prepare them for the day when they will love their own children.

I think that you are absolutely right about "buying" physical blessings. If someone has that attitude, they simply do not understand or perhaps do not understand fully. And that is perhaps ok because we all are in progress. The concept of tithing is taught over and over in church classes and meetings just for this very reason..... to give each person a chance to raise their understandings and in short, become more converted. It is clear to me, from many recent posts on tithing that we definitely need more lessons on the subject.

Does God reward and manipulate the physical world? Does he withhold from the unfaithful and disobedient? I think the best place to find the answers to these questions is in the scriptures. It is clear that the children of Israel experienced something similar in their comings and goings. The 10 commandments is a good example. The Lord had intended to give a higher law with higher blessings but because the people were wicked, they were given the 10 commandments and the lower law of moses. Many times the Lord has withdrawn his Spirit and his Priesthood from the earth because of wickedness. In the BOM, the righteous armies had the power of the Lord behind them. And in their missionary work, they experienced much influence from the Lord. In my own life, I can feel when the Holy Ghost has withdrawn from me. Like when I am teaching a lesson in Church and I know that I am only teaching with my earthly abilities. I know what it is like to teach with the Spirit and they are drastically different feelings. I can also tell, when I am given a blessing, the difference between someone who has the spirit and someone who doesn't. So, that helps me to see that God does withhold blessings. He does that to teach us. Sometimes the children of men are hard of hearing or stubborn in the arm of the flesh and God helps to remind them who he is. It is all done with Love because he wants his children to know him and know how he works and then he wants them to obey him because he is the only way to earthy and eternal happiness.

I think that it is also important to remember that God knows each one of us personally. He gives each one of us different circumstances. Why? Because he knows what we need. Sometimes having abundance is as much of a trial as not having it. I cannot judge the will of the Lord. But I do know this, that for those that have experienced spiritual knowledge, in or out of the church, God then requires more of them. And regardless of the blessings one may get vs another, the law of tithing is about obedience and faith. So maybe while you have recieved your "perks", God is waiting in the wings to see what you will choose before he blesses you with things like added faith and spiritual knowledge.

I was also thinking about the long term blessings that come to a person or family who pays tithing. The scriptures tell of the parable of the 10 virgins and their lamps of oil. 5 who were prepared and 5 who were not. In that long process of constant and diligence in obedience something is gained that the occasional observer will never know. It makes that person more refined and more prepared. Refiners fire stuff. Those who don't observe the law CAN't get what the others have no matter how giving those others may be. These are the kinds of blessings that come only for the individual who is dedicated and committed and with whom the Lord will be well pleased.

You are a very insightful individual. On more than one occasion you have caused me to think about things in a way I had not before considered. I still tend to disagree in most cases, but if there is hope for me accepting the Gospel in this lifetime it is because of people like you. I apologize in advance for the following rant, it sounds harsh but is only expressing my internal struggle and I truly want to know your opinion on it.

I've heard the analogy many times that God is watching us like a parent would watch over their child. It's a powerful analogy evoking loving feelings and intentions from our creator, however I can't help but think that it's a flawed analogy. What parent would deny their children even the slightest evidence of their own existance? If God is omnipotent he could easily appear to each of us or simply give us all the evidence we need to conclude he exists (as individuals it's different for each of us). What parent would remain silent while their children kill each other? I get that we all have free agency, but I just find it hard to believe that God would not intervene in any way to save thousands of his children from painful deaths, but He would go out of his way to intervene and reward those who have paid their tithing. Thinking of it that way makes God sound nothing short of sadistic, so I find it prefereable to think that He does not interfere at all in our affairs (which has also been supported by my personal observations).

[WillowTheWhisp]

The problem is that we can only see things from our own limited perspective. God sees the whole picture and it makes a lot more sense from his point of view. One day we will understand it too but meanwhile we must live on faith.

If he were to appear to each of us then we would have no need for faith and we would not grow.

[DigitalShadow]

If he were to appear to each of us then we would have no need for faith and we would not grow.

That is exactly my point. Presumably God set up the rules, why require everyone to come to him on faith rather than just appear to everyone or leave some kind of emperical evidence of his existance? Wouldn't you want your children to know you exist?

[Misshalfway]

That is exactly my point. Presumably God set up the rules, why require everyone to come to him on faith rather than just appear to everyone or leave some kind of emperical evidence of his existance? Wouldn't you want your children to know you exist?

You'lll have to talk to God about this one.

[MorningStar]

People shouldn't expect their tithing blessings to be monetary. It can be so much more than that. There are loads of blessings I would like over money.

[Misshalfway]

You are a very insightful individual. On more than one occasion you have caused me to think about things in a way I had not before considered. I still tend to disagree in most cases, but if there is hope for me accepting the Gospel in this lifetime it is because of people like you. I apologize in advance for the following rant, it sounds harsh but is only expressing my internal struggle and I truly want to know your opinion on it.

I've heard the analogy many times that God is watching us like a parent would watch over their child. It's a powerful analogy evoking loving feelings and intentions from our creator, however I can't help but think that it's a flawed analogy. What parent would deny their children even the slightest evidence of their own existance? If God is omnipotent he could easily appear to each of us or simply give us all the evidence we need to conclude he exists (as individuals it's different for each of us). What parent would remain silent while their children kill each other? I get that we all have free agency, but I just find it hard to believe that God would not intervene in any way to save thousands of his children from painful deaths, but He would go out of his way to intervene and reward those who have paid their tithing. Thinking of it that way makes God sound nothing short of sadistic, so I find it prefereable to think that He does not interfere at all in our affairs (which has also been supported by my personal observations).

Your concern is absolutely understandable. Frankly, during periods of my own recent sufferings, I have looked up into the sky and asked similar questions. Why would God allow such sufferings? It is absolutely one of the best questions.

Have you ever read CS Lewis? He (not LDS) understood this stuff really well. "Mere Christianity", and "The Screwtape Letters" ( two devils figuring out how to tempt man) are my favorites.

OK. My take...... We lived before we came here. You know we LDS believe that. We lived with God for such a long time. I haven't a clue how to measure that because God's time is not our time. But during that time we were taught and prepared. We learned very intimately who our Father was and what he wanted for us. Your memory can't remember, but your spirit can.

We were told that we would be leaving Father for a time and enter a realm where we wouldn't have Him next to us to help us choose. He taught us about agency and how important it was to eternal progression. You see, for a person to truly progress, they must become independently righteous -- having the abilities and character and literal nature of righteousness that flows from us without compulsory means. Or in simpler terms, without a babysitter. We couldn't do that in our spirit forms and we couldn't do it in the "nursery" of our Fathers presence. The only way to reach our full potential was to leave our Heavenly Father's presence and learn to choose for ourselves. Like a child going to college and learning to pay their own way.

Father also told us we would not be alone. He would bless each one of his children the Spirit of Christ -- in short a moral compass within each person to help them choose right from wrong. He promised us that we would be tested with pressure from the adversary. He told us we would get a body and would suffer with the humanness of that body and die. And that we would learn great lessons from our earthly surroundings. And then promised to send a Savior to save us from our sins and to help us overcome death.

The whole goal of earth life is to give all of us experience!!! Valuable, irreplaceable experience that we couldn't get while in the presence of the Father. It all boils down to agency. And why won't He interfere and stop the madness? Because He can't. That would violate eternal law. And he can't disobey eternal law or He would cease to be God. Liberty! Freedom! These are not just principles of our country. They are principles from the eternities. And God won't interfere with the right to choose.

And so he weeps with us and for us and sends floods when He has had enough. Sometimes he simply lets us destroy each other because that is our will!! Consequences!! We needed those consequences to teach us first hand. Who is to say that all these wars and destruction could have been prevented had the children of men listened to the promptings of the spirit inviting them not to!! And for those who do heed the promptings, he leads them to peace and love and joy and redemption! And this is where the Savior comes in. He is the answer to all the suffering undeserved and earned! He suffered much to save his people, IF they repent and obey.

This time on earth, in God's time, is but a moment. And then we will enter, thru death, into the eternities to literally report back to the Father about our experiences and choices.

DS, Father is still with us!! He tells us about Him as we seek him diligently. BUT, he waits for us to desire him. Pres Monson says "YOUGOTTAWANNA!" Desire is the absolute first step of righteous use of agency. It is also the first step to wicked agency. He acts only after we do. He blesses some with sure knowledge of Him early in their lives. And for folks like you, who are I am guessing a little smarter than the rest of us, he blesses with harder road in finding Him.

My friend, have you read the scriptures..... change that.....SEARCHED the scriptures for answers to your questions? The answers are there for you. And the evidence you so desperately need is in there too. Not necessarily in an acedemic study of the words but a study within your heart and mind and soul! The Spirit of the Lord WILL come to life for you. When? I have no idea. How? I couldn't say. But I know it! Little me, with all of my flaws and rebellions, and willful spirit! Father has made himself known to me. Even in this last year, when I suffered so greatly..... so greatly that I questioned every corner of my faith and even the existence of God. God has absolutely come to me and heard my prayers and answered them with sweet healing and gentle comforts.

And now you have me waxing long...... my apologies.

[skalenfehl]

Very well said, Misshalfway. That was wonderful.

[Aelswyth]

This question arose on another forum, and a Bishop there said specifically that he did not consider bare subsistence income like SSI to be something that should be tithed. It did not represent a true increase and besides, the grantors of such income did not expect it to be tithed and the acceptors should respect that expectation.

Interesting perspective. If that's true for SSI, then wouldn't it also be true for the subsistence income of everyone? Meaning, the tithe would be on what one earns over and above one's subsistence needs (food, rent/mortgage, power). Which seems to me like what is actually meant by "increase". Stuff you need to survive isn't exactly increase, nor is stuff you already own. In Biblical times, and in fact for much of human history until relatively recent times, people owned their land and home outright, not paying rent or mortgage on it. A flock of sheep would only be tithed on new arrivals (1 out of every 10 lambs), not on the whole flock every year. Tithing was payed on what one earned, not on what one already owned. So home and land, and other existing assets, could not be tithed. In modern times, since inheriting homes has become rare and our economic system has made it almost impossible for people to buy land and home outright, the equivalent of the home is the money that pays for it. To create a true equivalency to the ancient law of tithing, it seems one would have to exclude that basic subsistence money and pay tithing on what one receives above and beyond one's needs.

[Elgama]

Expecting blessings and noting the difference between when you pay tithing and when you don't is not the same.

I don't pay my tithing because of the blessings but I also know when I do I get through trials much better - because I have spent most of my church membership scraping by you notice the times when money is literally sent from heaven and when you just manage. When I am doing better I don't really notice I just feel better, but whilst I pay my tithing because the Lord demands it - I also know in my situation if I don't I end up with an account in arrears, bank charges and that £5 won't show up my wallet or a very kind man I had never met before would buy me a washing machine and give me money for cloth nappies saving us £1000s and is still doing. That lady in the shop that suddenly gave me £20 won't happen. I know if I pay my tithing I get miracles without which I would merely just survive.

-Charley

[Elgama]

This question arose on another forum, and a Bishop there said specifically that he did not consider bare subsistence income like SSI to be something that should be tithed. It did not represent a true increase and besides, the grantors of such income did not expect it to be tithed and the acceptors should respect that expectation.

That view is held by many Bishops - I know my previous RS president also held it she had been brought up LDS and had heard it several times, she said that if the state knew you paid tithing what would they do - answer reduce the money by that amount. Plus I don't know the position in the US but in the UK if you are being scrupulously honest then any help you received from the church would be deducted by the state, so technically you cannot pay your tithing and then go to the Bishop for help when stuck (plenty of people do but its not the honest thing to do) - you need to go to the State for an interest free loan, which would then suggest you stop paying your tithing.

-Charley

[WillowTheWhisp]

The real answer to all of this about tithing is if you pay it willingly and if you pay it in the spirit of tithing as in wanting to give to the Lord. If you do it begrudgingly or if you do it in the hope of obtaining blessings then it isn't a worthy offering. Also I personally believe that if you do something which is deceiving the state (the country you live in) then that isn't right either. In the Articles of Faith we say, "We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers and magistrates, in obeying, honouring and sustaining the law."

On the subject of why we need to learn to grow through faith and why Heavenly Father just doesn't appear to all of us individually so we can have no doubts I knew a poem once about a parent trying to teach a child to walk and it explains perfectly how we have to struggle in order to develop. I wish I could remember the poem now, or find it so that I could quote it to you. It's beautiful.

[jjrogers]

I like tevye's reply when the communist tells him money is the world's curse. "May God strike me with it and may I never recover."

Tithing is about faith, pure and simple. I have seen miracles come from paying tithing. With every blessing comes certain trials. One of my friends once said she wished she knew which trials came with which blessings so she could decide if she really wanted the blessing.

[MobyMule]

I like tevye's reply when the communist tells him money is the world's curse. "May God strike me with it and may I never recover."

Tithing is about faith, pure and simple. I have seen miracles come from paying tithing. With every blessing comes certain trials. One of my friends once said she wished she knew which trials came with which blessings so she could decide if she really wanted the blessing.

[rayhale]

Check with your Bishop because, I might be wrong, but I’ve heard that if you are not making any money and/or if paying tithing would take all your money away then you would not need to pay tithing.