Church History Questions

[WANDERER]

The establishment of the LDS faith in Utah makes interesting reading: but separation of fact from fiction? There does seem to be some white washing and some name blackening going on...but I'm wrapped up in reading about the early pioneers and there's something about seeing beautiful temples and cleanly presented missionaries that makes the whole 'there was a war?' past an odd thing to read about. It's so removed from the present.

I don't think you can really judge history by present day views or even by documents and text books as history is inevitably a coloured version of things.

What's a great source for reading things that presents a multi-faceted viewpoint on things?

[a-train]

Any single source claiming to present a multi-faceted viewpoint is an oxymoron in and of itself.

I started with the Church History volume set. Certainly that is from the viewpoint of particular persons, but the testimony of the direct participants in the events at hand is pretty vital I'd say. It's good to know what they said about those events at the time they occured.

Someone published several years ago a book that showed a pictoral history of political cartoons regarding Mormonism. Through these we can see the tremendous demonization of the Church and its leaders. I recall cartoons of Brigham Young tempting young girls to come into his harem.

If anyone knows the book I am talking about, I'd appreciate info on it.

-a-train

[WANDERER]

LOL I was looking for a list...a long list...The cartoons are one way of understanding how people thought back then about things and how things have changed or not changed so much over time - that's a good idea.

[Ray A]

I don't think you can really judge history by present day views or even by documents and text books as history is inevitably a coloured version of things.

Doing this is called "presentism": Presentism (literary and historical analysis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) (for a very basic summary)

[WANDERER]

Not there Ray...but some links from other articles to the concept. Inevitable I guess...but still worth hearing presentism as it does colour the present, while trying to uncover the accuracy or lack of it in our presumptions.

[Ray A]

Not there Ray

Sorry about that. Should have checked the link first. Try this:

Presentism (literary and historical analysis) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (It worked in the preview anyway.)

[Maureen]

Wanderer, you should give Signature Books a try:Signature Books -- Publisher of History, Essay, Fiction

[Elphaba]

Wanderer: What's a great source for reading things that presents a multi-faceted viewpoint on things?

Hi Wanderer,

If you go to my profile you'll see my list of LDS history books that focus on almost every aspect of both the history of the beginnings of the Church as well as the history of the Church in 19th Century Utah. It is a long list, though still not complete, and will always be a work in progress.

It is true my books are my addiction, especially my LDS history books. But given your repeated requests for the real history, not the “whitewashed” versions, once you start reading them, you'll find you want more, more, and more. Hence my conceited list of all of my LDS books in my profile.

(However, let it be known that I had every intention of reducing the list to a number that would make me look like a normal person with no illusions of grandeur. When I told my friend about this, She threw a fit, and insisted I leave them, with a plaintive: “Nooooo. It’s soooooo YOU!” So, I take no credit for my snobby looking library. All the blame goes to Strawberry Fields.)

Okay Wanderer, sorry for the tangent.

The following are the books I give the highest recommendations, and in the order I would suggest you read them--especially the first four.

Rough Stone Rolling, Richard Bushman;

Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith, Second Edition, Linda King Newell and Valeen Tippets Avery;

Mormon Polygamy: A History, Richard S. Van Wagoner;

By the Hand of Mormon: The American Scripture the Launched a New World Religion, Terryl Givens;

The History of Joseph Smith by His Mother,(the unedited, original version), Lucy Mack Smith;

In Sacred Loneliness, The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith, Todd Compton;

Mountain Meadows Massacre, Juanita Brooks;

Lion of the Lord: Essays on the Life & Services of Brigham Young (this is the best biography on BY we have so far, and we need a newer one.);

Mormon America - Revised and Updated Edition: The power and the Promise by Richard Ostling and Joan K. Ostling;

Women’s Voices, An Untold History of the Latter-day Saints

There are a number of websites devoted to Church history--the following are just a few of them.

http://www.saintswithouthalos.com/dirs/d_js.phtml Saints Without Halos

http://www.mhahome.org/index.php Mormon History Association

http://www.signaturebookslibrary.org/history/chapter8.htm#mountain3

History & Faith: Reflections of a Mormon Historian by Richard D. Poll

http://www.media.utah.edu/UHE/UHEindex.html

Utah History Encyclopedia

http://mormonwasp.wordpress.com/

Mormon Wasp

So, I hope this is a good start. If you have any questions, let me know.

Elphaba

[WANDERER]

Thanks Elphy...eeek...you do have quite a reading list. I definitely appreciate the short list : )

[Moksha]

Thanks Elphy...eeek...you do have quite a reading list. I definitely appreciate the short list : )

Start with this then: Rough Stone Rolling, Richard Bushman.

[JLFuller]

I would be very careful before I read the anti-Mormon books. If you want to compare doctrine, some Catholic writers have pretty well laid it out as they understand it. As in any endeavor, look for literature written by someone who doesn't have an ax to grind. More objective history is presented by several non-LDS writers. Jan Shipps is one well regarded author. She is a college professor in Illinois I believe. Balance your reading with some of the BYU professors like Susan Easton Black who does a good job too.

[Guest User-Removed]

WOW...Elphaba...you've got some pretty scary books on that list <VBG>

Bushman's work is interesting, although I find his wife to be more in the spirit than he is.

Richard Bushman and Elder John Carmack share a common Grandfather. When Bushman published his work, I had the good fortune to be a guest at a dinner party in Utah where Elder Carmack was also in attendance. When the topic of Bushman's book came up...his response was interesting..."Not the Joseph I know" was his response to it.

Richard Van Wagoner is another interesting author. While I couldn't put down his bio on Sidney Rigdon, I found his work on Plural Marriage to be just so much codswallop.

Mormon Enigma...Another fascinating tome.

When looking for interesting titles, I might suggest Benchmark Books in SLC. Curt and company do an excellent job of keeping me in the poor house with their extensive collections.

Also...I'm an unabashed promoter of the David O. McKay bio by Greg Prince and Richard Wright. In the same vain...D. Michael Quinn's bio on J. Reuben Clark is the finest. Sadly...Quinns rapacious homosexuality and apostacy make his works on Joseph questionable.

A subscription to the Utah Quarterly is always good reading...as is participation in the events with the Mormon History Association.

IMHO...groups like Sunstone are to be avoided like the plague.

[utcowboy]

You know it s funny, the other day I heard that Mormons were more educated then other religion followers and that their home library's were bigger. Thanks for the conformation Elphaba :)

[JLFuller]

You know it s funny, the other day I heard that Mormons were more educated then other religion followers and that their home library's were bigger. Thanks for the conformation Elphaba :)

I have to agree at least from my perspective. My home teacher is a Phd. and his entire living room is a library. And he asks ME questions. I think he is just being nice.

[Moksha]

Richard Bushman and Elder John Carmack share a common Grandfather. When Bushman published his work, I had the good fortune to be a guest at a dinner party in Utah where Elder Carmack was also in attendance. When the topic of Bushman's book came up...his response was interesting..."Not the Joseph I know" was his response to it.

I hear you on that point. It has also been my experience that many are more versed on legend than history. Bushman's history telling would not match up exactly with some legend.

[Guest User-Removed]

I hear you on that point. It has also been my experience that many are more versed on legend than history. Bushman's history telling would not match up exactly with some legend.

I'm curious...since you seem to be an expert on history vs legend...please enlighten me as to the legend you're bantering about?

Thanks In Advance...

[Elphaba]

You know it s funny, the other day I heard that Mormons were more educated then other religion followers and that their home library's were bigger. Thanks for the conformation Elphaba

Hi UTCowboy,

First, thank you for the compliment; however, I find myself in a quandary, and I am going to have to burst your balloon as I am an ex-Mormon and an atheist as well, but I hold no animosity for the Church whatsoever.

However, Mormon history, beginning with the newly hatched Church, as well as the pioneers survival in the desert, never cease to amaze me. In fact, I live in an area where the Mormons settled. It has not be developed yet, and I love imagining the Mormons walking through this very land, and I am awestruck.

As far as my libary, if you look at my LDS books, most of them refer to the history of the Church. I am interested in all serious aspects, including those that were not so "faith promoting. I believe to understand the HISTORY of the Church, you must include the, sometimes very serious, issues of the Church as well.

Another poster suggested Jan Shipps, and I completely agree she should be on my booksheleves. I have read her articles and scholarship, and she brings insights no Mormons have, and her articles were fascinating. It was a perfect situation, like the commenter said. She is not LDS, knew nothing about it when she moved to Utah, but soon recognized it was goldmine of both Utah's history, but also the unique possibilities of where the Church is headed. At the time, Church officials gave her access which, I believe was unparalleled. (If I am wrong, please let me know as I want to be accurate about what I write.)

Unfortunately, she has retired and no longer publishes. But you can find her articles with a Google list I'm sure. I've also seen her as a subject matter expert on a few documentary about the Church.

I hope I haven't burst your bubble too bad. Seriously, I am not out to hurt anyone's testimony, and am in fact very happy when a friend of mine joins and finds peace and friendship in their joining.

My library is still a good one. It's not complete, but they are my books and I love them all.

Elphaba

[utcowboy]

Elphaba,

You didn't burst my bubble. I am glad your happy with your current life and I look forward to welcoming you back to the fold. I too live in a part of the country that hasn't changed much since the time of the pioneers. I think its great.

Anyways, best wishes and thanks for the reply

[Snow]

The establishment of the LDS faith in Utah makes interesting reading: but separation of fact from fiction? There does seem to be some white washing and some name blackening going on...but I'm wrapped up in reading about the early pioneers and there's something about seeing beautiful temples and cleanly presented missionaries that makes the whole 'there was a war?' past an odd thing to read about. It's so removed from the present.

I don't think you can really judge history by present day views or even by documents and text books as history is inevitably a coloured version of things.

What's a great source for reading things that presents a multi-faceted viewpoint on things?

I'd try The New Mormon History, edited by D. Michael Quinn from Signature Books

Amazon.com: The New Mormon History: Revisionist Essays on the Past (Essays on Mormonism Series): D. Michael Quinn: Books

[Guest User-Removed]

I'd try The New Mormon History, edited by D. Michael Quinn from Signature Books

Amazon.com: The New Mormon History: Revisionist Essays on the Past (Essays on Mormonism Series): D. Michael Quinn: Books

The New Mormon History...edited by D. Michael Quinn is nothing but a load of revisionist codswallop.

Quinn is a rapacious homosexual, excommunicated for preying upon his male students while at the Y. With the exception of his excellent biography on J. Reuben Clark, the rest of his works are pure garbage.

Quinn's falderal is so well known in academic circles, that he's virtually unemployable in academia.

[Maureen]

The New Mormon History...edited by D. Michael Quinn is nothing but a load of revisionist codswallop.

Quinn is a rapacious homosexual, excommunicated for preying upon his male students while at the Y. With the exception of his excellent biography on J. Reuben Clark, the rest of his works are pure garbage.

Quinn's falderal is so well known in academic circles, that he's virtually unemployable in academia.

Absolutely not true. For one thing, one's sexual orientation has no effect on someone's qualifications for being an historian. Mr. Quinn was excommunicated in 1993 as part of the September Six group. The knowledge of his homosexuality was not made public until 1996. Mr. Quinn's disagreement against Boyd K. Packer's idea about what a true church historian should be, is what got him excommunicated.

M.

[Snow]

The New Mormon History...edited by D. Michael Quinn is nothing but a load of revisionist codswallop.

Quinn is a rapacious homosexual, excommunicated for preying upon his male students while at the Y. With the exception of his excellent biography on J. Reuben Clark, the rest of his works are pure garbage.

Quinn's falderal is so well known in academic circles, that he's virtually unemployable in academia.

Let's see.... how to put this delicate?

1. You are lying about the reasons for Quinn's excommunication - flat out lying.

2. You obviously haven't read New Mormon History. It is a series of articles written by some of the cream of the crop of LDS scholars:

Leonard Arrington, highly respected official Church Historian and past Director of the Joseph Fielding Smith Institute for Church History at BYU. First president of the Mormon History Association

BH Roberts, LDS Apostle and assistant Church Historian

Jan Ships, professor of history and religious studies at Indiana University, Perdue, former President of the Mormon History Association and most respected non-LDS, LDS scholar in the world.

Ronald Walker, professor and senior research historian for the Joseph Fielding Smith Institute for Church History at BYU.

James B. Allen, former assistant Church Historian, Lemuel Redd Professor of Western History at BYU

Thomas G. Alexander, professor of History at BYU, director of the Charles Redd Center for Western Studies, past president of the Mormon History Association.

etc

3. Quinn's apparent unemployability stems, not from the quality of his scholarship, as you falsely and disgustingly claim, but rather because he chose to specialize in Mormon history and all significant academic jobs specializing in Mormon History are primarily funded by Mormon interests and his 'dissident' status and corpus of work turn off those interests.

Your post is dishonest and ugly and uniformed.

[Snow]

Another poster suggested Jan Shipps, and I completely agree she should be on my booksheleves. I have read her articles and scholarship, and she brings insights no Mormons have, and her articles were fascinating. It was a perfect situation, like the commenter said. She is not LDS, knew nothing about it when she moved to Utah, but soon recognized it was goldmine of both Utah's history, but also the unique possibilities of where the Church is headed. At the time, Church officials gave her access which, I believe was unparalleled. (If I am wrong, please let me know as I want to be accurate about what I write.)

Unfortunately, she has retired and no longer publishes. But you can find her articles with a Google list I'm sure. I've also seen her as a subject matter expert on a few documentary about the Church.

I've talked to her twice in the last year or two. It seems to me that she was still doing scholarship and working on her next publishing effort.

[Dale]

Thanks Elphy...eeek...you do have quite a reading list. I definitely appreciate the short list : )

I am only missing three of the books on the list. I try and read everything important. Reading that stuff has only ended up strenghening my faith because one can become inoculated to issues over time. Whatever used to bother me in those books no longer bothers me.

[Guest User-Removed]

Absolutely not true. For one thing, one's sexual orientation has no effect on someone's qualifications for being an historian. Mr. Quinn was excommunicated in 1993 as part of the September Six group. The knowledge of his homosexuality was not made public until 1996. Mr. Quinn's disagreement against Boyd K. Packer's idea about what a true church historian should be, is what got him excommunicated.

M.

Maureen...On this not we're going to have to agree to disagree. I do believe that Mr. Quinn's rapacious homosexuality, not his political/social views were the cornerstone of his excommunication.

I do buy into the "September Six" falderal....friendship with the Toscano's aside.

If I had to choose between an open homosexual or an Apostle of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ...Well Elder Packer wins that one...

Tell me, are you more comfortable siding with the Homosexual agenda...or the Lord's?

Just curious...