A Messed Up Doctrine?

[Cal]

Originally posted by Tr2@Jun 10 2004, 08:02 AM

This is a very interesting topic. A little off the wall, but interesting because of the nature of the theology.

If you were to kill your children at a young age, I do believe they would go to heaven. Without a doubt. I think you would be screwed because Jesus spoke very harshly against those who would do wrong to children.

If you knew your kid wouldn't make it to heaven. Well now we're talking about YOU. You kill your kid, and he/she goes to heaven, but what about you. Did you harm your kids? yep. Did you do what was best for them? Nope. We are supposed to love our children. In a way we have forced them to go to heaven, whether they would have wanted to or not. God has never forced a person into heaven, which is why He gives man a choice in the matter. I once heard somebody say that God loves us so much that He will never force His will onto them.

That would not be the best thing for your children because you have robbed them of living on earth, as they were meant to. and you have robbed them of their choice in the matter. You would have forced them to do what you wanted without considering whether or not they even want to go to heaven. If my son ever tells me "Dad, I don't want to go to heaven", that will be the hardest thing I could ever imagine. But I would hope i could respect that decision, because God respected mine for so many years.

It is not our job to make sure other people go to heaven. It is our job to make sure they know how to get there.

Wait a minute, you say God never forced anyone to go to heaven? Not according to mormon scripture; kids who die AUTOMATICALLY go to heaven. Sound pretty cut and dry.

[Guest Unorthodox]

[Cal]

Originally posted by Tr2@Jun 10 2004, 08:02 AM

This is a very interesting topic. A little off the wall, but interesting because of the nature of the theology.

If you were to kill your children at a young age, I do believe they would go to heaven. Without a doubt. I think you would be screwed because Jesus spoke very harshly against those who would do wrong to children.

If you knew your kid wouldn't make it to heaven. Well now we're talking about YOU. You kill your kid, and he/she goes to heaven, but what about you. Did you harm your kids? yep. Did you do what was best for them? Nope. We are supposed to love our children. In a way we have forced them to go to heaven, whether they would have wanted to or not. God has never forced a person into heaven, which is why He gives man a choice in the matter. I once heard somebody say that God loves us so much that He will never force His will onto them.

That would not be the best thing for your children because you have robbed them of living on earth, as they were meant to. and you have robbed them of their choice in the matter. You would have forced them to do what you wanted without considering whether or not they even want to go to heaven. If my son ever tells me "Dad, I don't want to go to heaven", that will be the hardest thing I could ever imagine. But I would hope i could respect that decision, because God respected mine for so many years.

It is not our job to make sure other people go to heaven. It is our job to make sure they know how to get there.

Your last line is though provoking. Good comment. However, it IS interesting that mormon doctrine not only provides a way to show them how to get there, it also provides a way to quarantee it. (I hope everyone realizes that this is a purely academic exercise--I no more buy the consequeces of this doctrine than you) But it is hard to escape the consequence that one COULD guarantee his children's place in the celestial kingdom.

[Guest Unorthodox]

[M.P.S.]

Originally posted by Unorthodox@Jun 10 2004, 05:09 PM

Or would they be sheltered from evil spirits in Paradise?

Yes they would be sheltered. Unfortunatly in the time I have now, I can find the reference that tells this. It may be in D&C 138 as it talk of the missionary system in the Spirit World but I don't know for sure. I do know that once you leave this mortal life Satan and his angels have no power over you.

[Setheus]

Cal, wether you are joking or you are serious about your posts, you are being led like a puppet by an dark spirit. You are seeing things the way they are NOT and it is making sense to you.

Pray for what you are looking for.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Cal+Jun 10 2004, 03:51 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cal @ Jun 10 2004, 03:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--lindy9556@Jun 10 2004, 12:08 AM

Cal,

You are scaring me....with that kind of thinking 

Where on earth did you come up with something like that?

Uhhh...right from our own scriptures? Are my premises wrong? Do young children who die, not go to the celestial kingdom, according to mormon doctrine? Is it not a virtue to sacrifice all one has for the benefit of another? If you could guarantee the celestial, with all its benefits, to your children, can you not see why some wouldn't make the sacrifice

I'm not saying we are required to, but you can see how the logical consequences of some mormon doctrine could lead the literalists among us to some pretty strange behavior.

Actually, the fact of the matter is that few, if any of us would. Why? Because, deep down, we all actually have some doubt as to the truth of much of this stuff.

THE PROBLEM HERE, CAL, is that you are taking this doctrine out of context of the 'WHOLE GOSPEL' plan....

For instance...one of the greatest doctrines of the church is the doctrine of ETERNAL FAMILIES...if you think you are taking the easy way out for you children to be in the Celestial kingdom.....then tell me what is so easy about losing a parent?....they will be without you.....because you won't be there.....

They will have to have the heart-ache of losing their parent... how is that giving them any blessing? How does that make the doctrine of eternal families work?

That along with losing the experience they were supposed to gain here.....what have you given to them....that you haven't taken away more....

Imagine your child today, not having the experience of going to school....where would that child be...compared to other children who had this experience?

The gospel and it's individual tenents are only good if they are taken in contex and in conjunction with each other.

Really...it is like the baptism of water...without the baptism of fire....what do you really have?

If you take any doctrine and isolate it from the 'whole plan' you will get the warped outcomes we see....in the polygamist killings caused by misunderstood and misapplied doctrine of blood atonement.

A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing...my friend.

[shanstress70]

Sorry Cal, but if I may?

I think Cal is just trying to show that if you believe so literally in the scriptures, this is a possibility. He isn't saying that he would do it, or that anyone should do it. He's just trying to make a point that theoretically this could be a scenario.

And yes, I'm sure some deranged LDS person (probably several) has done this in the past, and it made total sense to them. Just like the lady who drowned all her children (although she wasn't LDS). I truly believe she thought she was helping her children.

I'm with Unorthodox... some doubt is a healthy thing. We can all say that what we believe is true, but the truth is NO ONE knows for sure! We can only believe. So no one should go do some stupid crap like this! (Not that I think anyone here would!!!)

[Tr2]

However, it IS interesting that mormon doctrine not only provides a way to show them how to get there, it also provides a way to quarantee it

But do you understand that if playing God? Man cannot guarantee going to heaven. We cannot get there by our own efforts. If we could then that nulls Jesus' purpose on earth.

[Ray]

But it is hard to escape the consequence that one COULD guarantee his children's place in the celestial kingdom.

Yes, and that place would be without YOU with them. Or do you suppose that you would also be received into the celestial kingdom, as a murderer? If so, then why would you limit that act towards only YOUR children? Why not go around killing everybody’s children before they get to be 8 years old? After all, you’d only be doing THEM a favor too, right? And then after you die, or possibly get killed by an outraged parent, you’ll then be with them and receive nothing but praise from them about what you did. Right? Is that the way you see things? Or are you just being silly?

Btw, children who die before the age of accountability go to the celestial kingdom only because Jesus made that provision for them. He is our lawgiver, and He can make any law He wants to, as long as He remains in agreement with our heavenly Father. There are reasons to support God’s decisions, but in the end, God is the one who justifies something as good or evil.

God has told us that we should not kill people. Self defense is acceptable, and sacrificing ourselves so that others may live is also acceptable, but not if our sacrifice constitutes murder or suicide.

Got it now?

For further clarification:

Self defense means to defend yourself, even to the point of killing someone, when it is reasonably obvious, to most “good” people, that they intend to kill you or someone else.

Sacrificing yourself means to allow someone to kill you, after which THAT SOMEONE will be punished.

And suicide means to kill yourself, for any reason.

Sheesh. Sounds like just one more example of the type of reasoning people use to call something evil good.

[Faerie]

Originally posted by Ruthie-chan@Jun 10 2004, 09:38 AM

Wow, I agree with Tr2.

I somehow didn't think that would ever happen!

It's frightening when it happens, but it DOES happen..lol

I agree too Trident!

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Tr2@Jun 10 2004, 09:08 PM

However, it IS interesting that mormon doctrine not only provides a way to show them how to get there, it also provides a way to quarantee it

But do you understand that if playing God? Man cannot guarantee going to heaven. We cannot get there by our own efforts. If we could then that nulls Jesus' purpose on earth.

I consider accepting Christ...sacrificing my desires and submitting to His, repenting fully....a big kind of work.....and believe me...without this work...there is no way you are going to get what Christ offers...

So our own efforts are necessary....Christ stated that if one was to 'come' (an action verb) to Him....He would give them life....

And what it sounds like you are saying,....is if we make the effort to come to Him....we are playing God?and nullifing Christ's work in our behalf?

I just don't get where you come up with these twisted ideas.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Unorthodox+Jun 10 2004, 04:09 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Unorthodox @ Jun 10 2004, 04:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Jun 10 2004, 05:05 PM

Wait a minute, you say God never forced anyone to go to heaven?  Not according to mormon scripture; kids who die AUTOMATICALLY go to heaven. Sound pretty cut and dry.

They don't go to the CK until Judgement Day.

If one can accept the gospel in the spirit world, couldn't one reject it too?

Wouldn't their spirit be given the opportunity to reject the gospel and then go to Spirit Prison?

Or would they be sheltered from evil spirits in Paradise?

Now you are REALLY into speculation. I know of NO doctrinal authority that says children who die are still in danger of NO going to the celestial. It says the opposite---that kids authomatically go to the celestial.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Unorthodox@Jun 10 2004, 04:17 PM

What about this...

Life is full of pain and suffering.

Death, even without an afterlife, would be the end to suffering.

An atheist parent could come to the same conclusion and decision as your hypothetical LDS parent, and do the exact same terrible thing.

I have no problem with that logic. And I think you have made a good point: Taken to some of its logical end points any philosophy can lead to absurd behavior. This is why I am skeptical of most "philosoply" religious or otherwise. Most of it is bunk.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Setheus@Jun 10 2004, 05:45 PM

Cal, wether you are joking or you are serious about your posts, you are being led like a puppet by an dark spirit. You are seeing things the way they are NOT and it is making sense to you.

Pray for what you are looking for.

What makes you think I am "looking" for something? And, Exactly how am I being led? If you can find some logical hole in my argument, point it out. Otherwise, please quit generalizing and make a point.

In case you haven't been paying attention, I'm not advocating ANYTHING. You seem to think that I actually believe people should act on the logical consequence of this mormon doctrine. I'm not. I don't think much of what JS said on the subject was anything more than his own personal philosophy. I have serious issues with JS's credibility.

What I am saying is that some of JS's religious philosophy even leads to absurd, but logical (as I have pointed out) consequences, which goes to show how the philosophies of man often end up leading to non-sensical conclusion. The fact that you don't want to recognize that is a reflection of your own desire to believe. Belief on, but at least recognize where some of your cherished doctrines lead.

[Guest Chell]

I don't know who wrote it, but whomever said that there is no pain and suffering after death, is wrong, sort of.

If one commits suiside, they must wonder the earth and observed all the devastation they caused for their family and friends, until the pain they are suffering ends.

[broadway]

Originally posted by Chell@Jun 12 2004, 12:35 PM

I don't know who wrote it, but whomever said that there is no pain and suffering after death, is wrong, sort of.

If one commits suiside, they must wonder the earth and observed all the devastation they caused for their family and friends, until the pain they are suffering ends.

where did you find that information?

[Cal]

Originally posted by Starsky@Jun 10 2004, 05:53 PM

Cal,

You are scaring me....with that kind of thinking 

Where on earth did you come up with something like that?

Uhhh...right from our own scriptures? Are my premises wrong? Do young children who die, not go to the celestial kingdom, according to mormon doctrine? Is it not a virtue to sacrifice all one has for the benefit of another? If you could guarantee the celestial, with all its benefits, to your children, can you not see why some wouldn't make the sacrifice

I'm not saying we are required to, but you can see how the logical consequences of some mormon doctrine could lead the literalists among us to some pretty strange behavior.

Actually, the fact of the matter is that few, if any of us would. Why? Because, deep down, we all actually have some doubt as to the truth of much of this stuff.

THE PROBLEM HERE, CAL, is that you are taking this doctrine out of context of the 'WHOLE GOSPEL' plan....

For instance...one of the greatest doctrines of the church is the doctrine of ETERNAL FAMILIES...if you think you are taking the easy way out for you children to be in the Celestial kingdom.....then tell me what is so easy about losing a parent?....they will be without you.....because you won't be there.....

They will have to have the heart-ache of losing their parent... how is that giving them any blessing? How does that make the doctrine of eternal families work?

That along with losing the experience they were supposed to gain here.....what have you given to them....that you haven't taken away more....

Imagine your child today, not having the experience of going to school....where would that child be...compared to other children who had this experience?

The gospel and it's individual tenents are only good if they are taken in contex and in conjunction with each other.

Really...it is like the baptism of water...without the baptism of fire....what do you really have?

If you take any doctrine and isolate it from the 'whole plan' you will get the warped outcomes we see....in the polygamist killings caused by misunderstood and misapplied doctrine of blood atonement.

A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing...my friend.

It's too bad that the "ONLY TRUE CHURCH" has doctrines that are so contradictory as to lead to the conclusions we have discussed. You would think that a really true and consistent philosoply could protect its members from errors in thinking that can be justified from belief in that very philosophy. For example, who proposed the idea of blood atonement? That's right, BY himself. You think blood atonement was evil? Like killing kids to get them to the celestial? Same idea. I also think BOTH philosophies are evil. Yet they have their roots in LDS doctrine, and from LDS prophets pronouncements. No, JS didn't advocate killing children to get them to the celestial, but mormon philosophy could be used to justify it.

By the way, your argument about how the family would be disrupted....most families are going to be disrupted anyway, according to mormon doctrine......many of our kids are not going to make the celestial because of their rejection of the gospel....am I wrong about this? So the fact that I as a parent chose to make sure that they ALL make the celestial could be viewed as an act of extreme charity and selflessness, characteristics that Jesus praised. Do you see the conundrum created by LDS doctrine.

Are you starting to see my issues with this doctrine yet? I am the last one to advocate any violence at all. I don't even believe in capital punishment, blood atonement .... yet mormon doctrine condones it all.

[Cal]

Originally posted by shanstress70@Jun 10 2004, 06:29 PM

Sorry Cal, but if I may?

I think Cal is just trying to show that if you believe so literally in the scriptures, this is a possibility. He isn't saying that he would do it, or that anyone should do it. He's just trying to make a point that theoretically this could be a scenario.

And yes, I'm sure some deranged LDS person (probably several) has done this in the past, and it made total sense to them. Just like the lady who drowned all her children (although she wasn't LDS). I truly believe she thought she was helping her children.

I'm with Unorthodox... some doubt is a healthy thing. We can all say that what we believe is true, but the truth is NO ONE knows for sure! We can only believe. So no one should go do some stupid crap like this! (Not that I think anyone here would!!!)

Bingo! More evidence of intelligent life in the universe.

[Guest Chell]

Originally posted by broadway+Jun 12 2004, 06:38 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (broadway @ Jun 12 2004, 06:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Chell@Jun 12 2004, 12:35 PM

I don't know who wrote it, but whomever said that there is no pain and suffering after death, is wrong, sort of.

If one commits suiside, they must wonder the earth and observed all the devastation they caused for their family and friends, until the pain they are suffering ends.

where did you find that information?

NED.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Tr2@Jun 10 2004, 09:08 PM

However, it IS interesting that mormon doctrine not only provides a way to show them how to get there, it also provides a way to quarantee it

But do you understand that if playing God? Man cannot guarantee going to heaven. We cannot get there by our own efforts. If we could then that nulls Jesus' purpose on earth.

Not according to mormon doctrine, friend. Scripture recently added to the DC states that little children who die before the age of accountability are GUARANTEED the celestial kingdom, no if ands or buts. Logical consequence (but definitely NOT advocated by me)........... one can quarantee that all his kids go to heaven.....and because of another LDS doctrine, which says that God judges man by the intent of his heart (see the BoM) and "greater love hath no man...", there is every reason to believe God would go pretty easy on such a person.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Ray@Jun 11 2004, 11:15 AM

But it is hard to escape the consequence that one COULD guarantee his children's place in the celestial kingdom.

Yes, and that place would be without YOU with them. Or do you suppose that you would also be received into the celestial kingdom, as a murderer? If so, then why would you limit that act towards only YOUR children? Why not go around killing everybody’s children before they get to be 8 years old? After all, you’d only be doing THEM a favor too, right? And then after you die, or possibly get killed by an outraged parent, you’ll then be with them and receive nothing but praise from them about what you did. Right? Is that the way you see things? Or are you just being silly?

Btw, children who die before the age of accountability go to the celestial kingdom only because Jesus made that provision for them. He is our lawgiver, and He can make any law He wants to, as long as He remains in agreement with our heavenly Father. There are reasons to support God’s decisions, but in the end, God is the one who justifies something as good or evil.

God has told us that we should not kill people. Self defense is acceptable, and sacrificing ourselves so that others may live is also acceptable, but not if our sacrifice constitutes murder or suicide.

Got it now?

For further clarification:

Self defense means to defend yourself, even to the point of killing someone, when it is reasonably obvious, to most “good” people, that they intend to kill you or someone else.

Sacrificing yourself means to allow someone to kill you, after which THAT SOMEONE will be punished.

And suicide means to kill yourself, for any reason.

Sheesh. Sounds like just one more example of the type of reasoning people use to call something evil good.

So, if committing murder to save others is not justified, then please explain Nephi killing Laban. (Oh, God told him to do it. So I guess it IS alright to kill, as long as the reason is noble---and the precedent in the case of Nephi and Laban is that it will help many more people get to heaven right?) I think you are really just making up your own doctrine--where does it say that it is ok to kill in self defense, but NOT to help others to heaven.

(YOu seem to be one of those on this thread that has failed to make the distinction between what I actually advocate, and what some of the absurd things that some religious doctrines can lead to) Please start making some fine distinctions.

I actually find Nephi's kill of Laban to be a total contradiction. Why would God forbid killing and then violate his own edicts by telling people to go around killing eachother? Sets a pretty bad example don't you think? Oh, that's right, God can do anything he wants. (The old "escape argument" employed by those backed into a corner)

[Cal]

Originally posted by Chell@Jun 12 2004, 11:35 AM

I don't know who wrote it, but whomever said that there is no pain and suffering after death, is wrong, sort of.

If one commits suiside, they must wonder the earth and observed all the devastation they caused for their family and friends, until the pain they are suffering ends.

And you know that because..............

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by broadway@Jun 9 2004, 10:47 PM

Quite a twist you put on this doctrine, eh? Well...you wouldn't be the first to twist the words of our God and prophets...

If you kill a human being before he reaches that age (for that reason), you are trying to put yourself above God by doing something that he forbides...taking free agency away. Satan was cast down out of heaven for this.

Humans were put on earth to go through trials and be tested and prove themselves. By killing a human being, you are cutting his journey short and disallowing him to progress any further on earth. This is a serious sin and is punished very seriously, as you acknowledged. This would not be considered a selfless act or a sacrifice, but as an abomination and blaspheme.

Even if I am wrong, I wouldn't go trying it to see. 

Do you have children? What would you do if you KNEW that one or more of them would not make it to the celestial kingdom? Odds are they won't right? But what if you could guarantee they they do? Wouldn't you be giving them the greatest gift of all? Would you sacrifice yourself, to save your kids?

I do have two children. My first loyalty goes to Heavenly Father. This can be difficult at times. My second loyalty is to my husband...again, this can be difficult. Then to my children.

This is the way things ought to be, according to scriptures.

I can understand your point of view and ,as a parent, can appreciate it. However, you loose them the opportunity to progress further if you take their earthly life away before the age of accountability. How fair would it be to your child if he was going to get married, endure to the end, etc and make it to the very top, but you decided that he wasn't good enough to actually accomplish all that.

How dare any person take these kinds of things into their own hands? If you were Heavenly Father, what would you think of a person who did such a thing?

Broadway, I'm a bit confused. You said in another thread that you are an anti, but in this thread you seem to be a member. I'm I reading things the wrong way?

[Guest Chell]

Originally posted by Cal+Jun 12 2004, 07:27 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cal @ Jun 12 2004, 07:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Chell@Jun 12 2004, 11:35 AM

I don't know who wrote it, but whomever said that there is no pain and suffering after death, is wrong, sort of.

If one commits suiside, they must wonder the earth and observed all the devastation they caused for their family and friends, until the pain they are suffering ends.

And you know that because..............

I know that because I am spiritually informed.