Taxes (BLECH!)

[kona0197]

I have to remain quiet about such things at work. You are better off not talking about politics.

I don't think we need to save the constitution just yet. We are not quite at that point.

[skalenfehl]

I think I remember you said you work at Wal Mart. I can understand how discussing politics can get messy but to sit around until the Constitution hangs by a thread? Not me. No sir.

[kona0197]

The whole point is that you guys are over-reacting. We are not even to the point that it is hanging by a thread.

[JohnBirchSociety]

The whole point is that you guys are over-reacting. We are not even to the point that it is hanging by a thread.

That you think we are not close shows that you don't know the Constitution.

[skalenfehl]

The Constitution has been under attack for years and even now is being attacked. A lot of this year's presidential debates during the primaries have manifested it.

[kona0197]

I'll have to disagree. Yes some things are messed up in America and need to be fixed but we are still free so the I think you are over-reacting.

[skalenfehl]

I beg to differ. kona, our freedom has been slowly and methodically taken away! Little by little and legislation by legislation. We were once free from having to pay income tax, social security tax and now as we speak a democrat is looking to force us to pay for health care whether we like it or not.

And it will be enforced just like paying your taxes is enforced. What would happen if you didn't pay your taxes (evasion)? The IRS will come knocking on your door. The same thing will happen soon with Health Care if a certain candidate becomes president. I heard this candidate myself being interviewed. "There will be an enforcement system". You can't get any clearer than that.

Even now the right to bear arms is being debated. You may not be able to buy a firearm anymore to go hunting or to keep in your own home for self defense. Some politicians think that amendment only applied to the militia and we don't need that amendment any more.

Shall I continue?

[Alaskagain]

I can understand not being able to talk politics at work (and other places too!)

Shouldn't everyone should discuss political situations with their friends, and especially with their families? There are appropriate times to do this - one-on-one, neighborhood meetings, family home evenings.

Politics begins at the local level. Political control begins at the local level. The very least we can do as citizens of wherever we live is to be involved with our neighborhood government units - school boards, city councils, etc.

And to vote when the opportunity to cast a ballot is presented - it doesn't matter whether it is for a presidential race, city council, or bond issue - ever single time the polls are open, you should educate yourself on the issue, and be there to vote.

We need to be the overseers of the government and not sit back and let the government oversee us. (At least those of us who live in a democratic republic or under a similar governmental structure.)

Because there are many who are willing to let those already in power make the laws with no input from the average citizen, we are ending up (in the US) with laws that erode our freedoms. And that is one contribution to the "hanging by a thread" scenario - the failure of citizens to be involved.

If I don't feel I can make my voice heard, I have no shyness in joining a group of other like-minded citizens.

My representatives in Washington, D.C. and my state capital and my county board of commissioners know how I stand on important issues, including the various forms of taxation. Do yours?

[kona0197]

"My representatives in Washington, D.C. and my state capital and my county board of commissioners know how I stand on important issues, including the various forms of taxation. Do yours?"

So you think....

They actually really do not care. For example my girlfriend and I can not be married do to current social security laws. I have written our reps in the Senate about getting the law changed. No one has contacted me.

I will still vote but only to get that idiot out of the White House.

[skalenfehl]

I will still vote but only to get that idiot out of the White House.

Well he'll be out whether or not most people vote.

[kona0197]

True enough.

[Alaskagain]

"

They actually really do not care. For example my girlfriend and I can not be married do to current social security laws. I have written our reps in the Senate about getting the law changed. No one has contacted me.

Kona, they won't contact you. You have to keep contacting them. You have to form a group or find an existing group of people who don't like that law and want it changed. Then you have to contact them some more. They figure you will just give up and go home. If you do, they won't ever change the law.

[a-train]

If speaking against the failed great society programs in an internet forum is over-reacting, then at what point will it become appropriate? Perhaps the Constitution does not 'hang by a thread', but is it inappropriate to speak out against policy that is not in line with the principles upon which our Constitution and government are founded, or policies that will prove harmful to the general welfare of the people?

To what level of disparity must the Constitution fall before we speak up? There were those who sought to silence the speakers of the civil rights movement. To them, the level of discrimination was NOT great enough to warrant any change of policy.

Although some remain in deep denial, it is now commonly believed what many have been trying to tell us for decades: Social Security is in long-term financial trouble. The implication is higher taxes and decreased benefits, especially for our children. The Social Security Administration even says so on its website.

Our children are being born into a system that we have and are creating, one that provides us with a higher standard of living at the expense of our children. I personally would rather decrease my own standard of living so that my children could have better, rather than the opposite.

Our children are either too young or too unborn to raise any voice about what we are signing and what we have signed them up for. Is it right for us to commit our children without their consent to lower their standard of living so that we can maintain ours? Is it wrong for me to speak out against this activity? Is it wrong for me to speak against 30% tax increases on my child's labor?

What will our children do? Give the same increase to their children? Will people in 3008 be paying 100% of their income to taxes? When does increasing social reform warrant a voice of opposition? Should we speak up at 65%? 70%? 80%? 90%?

I already pay 55% of my own personal income in taxes through income taxes (including local), SS taxes, Medicare taxes, Medicaid taxes, property taxes, excise taxes, and utility taxes. I can't even be certain I can pinpoint the amount of taxes I pay in inflation taxes and other business taxes forwarded to me through consumer purchases. Is there any wonder why people are wanting to see cuts in government spending and taxation?

When does it become appropriate for us as citizens to simply stop paying for runaway government spending? At what point should we speak up?

-a-train

[kona0197]

I don't have time to do that.

[kona0197]

55 percent of your income is taxed? You must be doing something wrong as only 15 percent of every paycheck I get is taxed...

[a-train]

55 percent of your income is taxed? You must be doing something wrong as only 15 percent of every paycheck I get is taxed...

OK. Let's say you make $40,000.

Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid is 15.3% on the first $102,000 this year. You ARE paying that. I am self employed so I literally pay that, but you see only half of that on your check stub. Your employer matches your withholdings. Regardless, it is tax on your wages that are paid and which do effect your net pay, whether you see it all printed on your check stub or not.

If your employer did not have to match your payments, he/she could give you that money and it would be no additional cost to him/her. They actually pay $43,060 for your employment rather than the $40,000 you see on your stub. That would mean an extra 7.65% income to you at no additional cost to your employer. It is really YOU that pays 15.3%.

Income tax for someone married without kids making $40,000 without any deductions (I'm trying to make this simple) would be around 13%.

There is an additional local income tax of 1% where I live.

Let us imagine that you spend $14,000 of your income this year on taxable goods including gasoline at about 6% ($793).

Imagine another $900 goes to property tax on your housing, even if you are renting, you are paying this in your rent.

Another $200 in tax is collected on services such as cellular, telephone, and cable/internet.

Your car costs you another $800 in property taxes.

This already adds up to 40% of your $43,060 going to taxes.

Where I live, property taxes are slightly higher and sales taxes are also 8.95% which alone would take around 3-4% more.

If you own your own business (like me), you are hit with many more taxes related to your business, many of which are assessed without any regard to whether you make a profit at all.

Add to all of this any tolls you pay in your travels and taxes also related to flights or bus rides.

For me, in my area, with my business, with my income, it all adds up to around 55%. This year will be a little lower due to the new baby and the subsequent deduction.

In addition to all of this, Americans pay hidden taxes in the price of goods that have been taxed as they crossed borders or went through production or distribution.

Then, there is the most nasty and repugnant tax of all: the inflation tax. Through this, our government can spend the money sitting in our accounts or hidden in the cushions of our sofa at varying rates almost without our knowledge. Calculating this tax is virtually impossible, but it can be significant. As low as only 1%, maybe less, or as high as 7%, it is hard at work, eating away at whatever cash you have that is not invested in something.

This tax motivates exchange. Those holding dollars are losing value at a rate that averages 50% over 20 years. We are going into a deflationary period, but it won't last, the trend toward the dollar in the markets is very temporary, trust me. The FED will give money away for free to keep us from deflating if they have too. But if we have deflation regardless, abandon all hope ye who live in debt.

American households living beyond their means pay an even higher rate of tax because they spend more than they earn and are taxed accordingly.

Sheesh! And there are people advocating higher taxes!!!

[skalenfehl]

Amen to all that. A-train, how many cents on the tax dollar do you suppose actually goes towards its intended purpose? How much of the difference goes in someones back pocket in some smoke filled back room? That's what I wanna know.

[a-train]

Its all about corporate favoritism, big contracts, bureaucracies, foreign aid that goes who knows where (our enemies), etc. Your right. The cure is the downsizing of governement and its costs. So much of what we pay for is far from necessary. What power do we hold over our government if we cannot cease from funding it? What power does the slave have over his master if he is unable to stop supporting him?

Check out the Whiskey Rebellion. In 1791 a tax on whiskey was so harshly rejected by whiskey producers that it caused President Washington to use military force to enforce the tax. A few persons were eventually jailed, most of which were pardoned. After much tribulation and after it was ultimately realized that it was unenforceable, the tax was repealed in 1803.

Americans today could refuse to support big corporations and do business with local establishments. They could use cash rather than cards and avoid non-local banks. We could very peacefully reject much of the federal tax we are subjected to through such action.

A community could simply develop its own currency (this is actually in practice in some communities). Something we could do very easily is trade bullion or coins, but what many communities do is trade what is essentially gift cards.

A community doing cash transactions could simply not disclose real income and simply not pay the taxes. If a movement like this were to sweep our nation, local entrepreneurialism would flourish and the federal government would be economically compelled to move to means outside of income taxes to raise revenues.

Dishonest? Unrighteous? Against the Law?

Where do we draw the line between civil disobedience and wickedness?

Should we consider the Amish farmers selling carrots, candles, and woven baskets at the farmer's market or on the side of a highway criminals? They are not charging sales tax nor paying income tax.

How many young women waiting tables in this country disclose their full income? I know not any.

Where do we draw such a line?

-a-train

[skalenfehl]

bravo!! I should have stayed in school.

[kona0197]

All I have to say is that on average my paycheck is 3 to 4 hundred dollars. My taxes paid in are always around 15%.

A train you are getting ripped off.

[a-train]

So you don't pay any sales taxes, property taxes, utility taxes, etc.?

Plus, there is no way you are avoiding the social security and medicare. That is 15.3% alone for everyone. I realize it is not on your check stub, but you ARE paying that whole 15.3%.

-a-train

[kona0197]

No sales tax in Oregon. We rent and our rent is around 4 hundred. Landlord pays the property taxes I guess. I probably pay a few cents or dollars a month for utilitiy taxes. Never more than 5 bucks.

I must be avoiding the 15.3%. On each check all my deductions add up to less than 60 dollars.

Oh and yes Social Security and Medicare show up on my check.

So as I said before - you are getting ripped off.

[a-train]

Trust me, you pay your landlord's property taxes. Did you not read my post? You will only see half of your social security and medicare payments on your check stub. You are not avoiding the 15.3%. You will see 7.65%, but you are paying 15.3%. Don't believe me? Go to the ssa.gov site yourself and read it.

If you were in Oregon and you were making $40,000 (back to my model), you would be charged 8% state income tax. This is even WORSE than paying 8% in sales taxes because it taxes every dime you claim rather than just consumer spending.

Oregon gasoline taxes are 42.4 cents a gallon (14% of the cost if the price is $3). This is 20% higher than Missouri where I live. However, I think you avoid property taxes on the vehicle. Is that correct? Do you pay property taxes on a car?

Do you have a cell phone? How much tax are you charged on your internet service?

What is the actual percentage they are witholding from your check? Add 7.65% to that and that is the tax burden on your shoulders off the bat. Then add property, fuel, and utility taxes.

-a-train

[skalenfehl]

In other words, kona, while you only pay small percentage directly as indicated on your pay stub, the other taxes that you pay still come from the money you are earning. Hence your income.

[Moksha]

At this point, we are told to sustained the law of the land. Yes! No matter if the IRS laws are not constitutional. We have wait until the Lord to say differently. As presented in the 12th Article of Faith:

If for some reason the country fails (like being bankrupted by the Iraq War sometime in 2012) and we resort back to the Kingdom of Deseret, we can then call our payments tithing rather than taxes, (with a special box on the tithing slip for municipal sewer donations, of course). Sounds much more acceptable, except to those who find they do no want to pay.