Some questions for Mormons

[xanmad33]

Heber C. Kimball stated: "The Holy Ghost is a man; he is one of the sons of our Father and our God" (Journal of Discourses, vol.5, p.179

[Dr T]

It appears that xanmad33 is not deliberately ignoring your questions Train. It seems to me that she is trying to make sure you are all using the same vocabulary so you are not comparing apples and oranges. Just my observation.

[Brother Dorsey]

Brothers and Sisters it seems to me that all of xan's questions have been answered a number of times. She refuses to acknowledge our answers to her questions and just wants to somehow proove what we hold dear to our hearts as being of satan. She pretty much refuses to answer the majority of our questions. She refuses the same litmus test for her beliefs as she holds ours to. That leaves us with only one possible explaination....she is here only to contend and we all know contention is of the devil and where there is contention the Spirit cannot dwell and bear testimony of the truth. So, I suggest we stop casting our pearls before swine.

[Brother Dorsey]

xanmad33; I'm sorry you feel such anger at me, it truly makes me sad to have made someone feel this way.

xan...I am in no way angry with you, I just don't believe you when you say you came here for answers to what we believe and why we believe them. You have been given those answers over and over again yet you refuse to acknowledge them, you simply want to tell us we are wrong and why you believe we are wrong. I was just stating a fact in my last post to you when I said most of us here have heard these same anti-Mormon arguments many many times before and repeating them over and over again doesn't make them true. You really should just save your time on the keyboard. I'm not angry, I'm just being truthful.....simple as that. You should try it!

God bless.........

[a-train]

a-train...

I will be happy to answer your questions, but I am waiting for your answers to mine. I have even given answers to some of your questions. Please, do me the courtesy of answering mine before we continue to the next subject. We will not be able to understand one another until you do so.

Now, can you answer my questions please?

Is Jesus NOT our Father in Heaven?

Is He not exalted?

Did He not live on this earth in every way a man?

Did He not pass through life and death?

Does He not have a Father in Heaven like us?

Do we not have any promise from Him that we may become like Him?

Are not these questions answered plainly in the Bible?

And, just so we are perfectly clear: Does God (Jesus) have a body of flesh and bone?

Thankyou.

-a-train

[xanmad33]

xanmad33; I'm sorry you feel such anger at me, it truly makes me sad to have made someone feel this way.

xan...I am in no way angry with you, I just don't believe you when you say you came here for answers to what we believe and why we believe them. You have been given those answers over and over again yet you refuse to acknowledge them, you simply want to tell us we are wrong and why you believe we are wrong. I was just stating a fact in my last post to you when I said most of us here have heard these same anti-Mormon arguments many many times before and repeating them over and over again doesn't make them true. You really should just save your time on the keyboard. I'm not angry, I'm just being truthful.....simple as that. You should try it!

God bless.........

Excuse me sir but I have never had the priveledge of asking these questions to Mormons before, so if you have answered all this before and it makes you upset, perhaps you should not be participating in this thread?

And no, my questions have not all been answered, there are soo many questions I posed that still remain untouched. I have been answering question after question for a couple days now giving all respect back and answering them.

I would appreciate being treated with respect .

You are not being persectuted. You are not a victim.

I haven't said ONE FALSE thing about your entire faith throughout this whole discussion.

I have tried very hard to remain respectful in the face of some blatent disrespect here.

I am in pursuit of truth, and as I said earlier truth can withstand scrutiny.

Your remarks and JUDGEMENTS about me are completely wrong.

They are even downright cruel.

Telling me your being truthful and that I should "try it" is down right vile!

[xanmad33]

Brothers and Sisters it seems to me that all of xan's questions have been answered a number of times. She refuses to acknowledge our answers to her questions and just wants to somehow proove what we hold dear to our hearts as being of satan. She pretty much refuses to answer the majority of our questions. She refuses the same litmus test for her beliefs as she holds ours to. That leaves us with only one possible explaination....she is here only to contend and we all know contention is of the devil and where there is contention the Spirit cannot dwell and bear testimony of the truth. So, I suggest we stop casting our pearls before swine.

I have done nothing for the last two days BUT answer questions!

How have I refused the same litmus test?

I have argued that since we both believe in the Bible shouldn't we both use the same litmus test?!!!!

You claim to BE A CHRISTIAN! You claim to be what I believe!

I have been asking you that IF thats true, based on the Bible which YOU ALL claim to believe in, why do we believe so differently, what is the test you hold your prophet to ?

People here answered you knew through prayer, so I showed them in OUR MUTUAL book of faith THE BIBLE, what IT actually says about that!!!!!

And that statement I bolded is probably the most degrading statement I have EVER heard anyone say to a fellow believer...

You have judged me very harshly

[Guest Leeanntheonetwo]

I would not suggest to not listen to the Holy Ghost revealing something to me, but according to his scripture he would NEVER reveal something contrary to what he has already revealed.

Miss xanmad33m, Are you saying that the book of Mormon is in direct contradiction to the bible? Do you mean that they teach different gospels? I find that hard to believe. We adhere very closely to both and I don’t see a problem with either.

As far as I know nobody has told me anything different. We believe ultimately that God gave Joseph Smith the word of God as He did the disciples of Jesus our Lord. Again I say we believe both. If they contradict each other like you say then show us and only then maybe you will have a point. I await for your response if you have one that is.

Leeann

[xanmad33]

Leeann, yes I am saying that Mormon recognized doctrines are in direct conflict with the BIble, and I can illistrate that in many ways. I will compile that info for you and post it tomorrow because unfortunately I do not have the time right now to give that subject the attention it deserves.

but i will

[skalenfehl]

Respectfully...

Leeann, they do not conflict one bit. I gave my litmus test HERE and HERE

I submit that from xanmad's perspective and understanding only, does the Book of Mormon conflict with the Bible. This is the very reason there are so many splinter churches and denominations that began from the time the apostles were killed and Constantine formed the Nicene Creed.

The Bible does not contradict the Book of Mormon. Until one has completely read and understood the prophets and the apostles, such as Isaiah, Ezekiel, Paul, Peter, etc. and through personal revelation can one know. Until then the Bible will be subject to one's own interpretation and limited understanding. The Jews thought they knew the scriptures. They awaited the Messiah to come down from heaven to deliver them and in their hard heartedness did they miss the most precious thing that happened to them--Jesus Christ. Only as Peter knew through personal revelation (that Jesus Christ was the Son of God) can anyone know the same thing. The Bible cannot prove that Jesus Christ lived. The Bible is only a book, albeit a sacred book that we all believe in, but the Bible cannot prove that God lives, it cannot baptize you, it cannot tell you which church is true. Only God can through personal revelation. Plain and simple. Any man can quote verses and chapters and the whole Bible itself, but the Bible is not subject to man's interpretation. Period.

[skalenfehl]

One final note. xanmad you asked me if there was a litmus test in the Bible the way there was in Moroni 10:5. Here it is:

James 1: 5-6

5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

[Dr T]

Skalen said

I submit that from xanmad's perspective and understanding only, does the Book of Mormon conflict with the Bible. This is the very reason there are so many splinter churches and denominations that began from the time the apostles were killed and Constantine formed the Nicene Creed.

brother, for this argument to hold water, it would have to follow that there are no splinter groups in the LDS church too. We know there have been in your church too. Just an observation (again)

[skalenfehl]

Skalen said

brother, for this argument to hold water, it would have to follow that there are no splinter groups in the LDS church too. We know there have been in your church too. Just an observation (again)

Not true. Even if a dozen or a hundred members splintered from the LDS church the same principle applies. Hence the need for personal revelation regardless of the church, splinter group, denomination, belief system, etc. It doesn't matter. Only God will tell you what is eternal truth and where it is found.

Respectfully, your point is flawed.

[Dr T]

Thanks Skalenfehl,

I might have misread what you were saying. I thought you were saying "there are so many splinter churches and denominations in Christianity" as a basis for confirming that there was internal conflict. I thought you were putting that forward as a basis for discounting Christian unity. I now see you were not saying that interpretation can lead to differences in churches. I can agree with that point. Would you agree that the same applies to the LDS church too? Would you also agree that there are way more than a dozen or a 100 members that split from foundational LDS beliefs? :) Thanks

[skalenfehl]

Even within the church our leaders can teach us true principles, but we are all at different levels of understanding. Take Isaiah for example. Can you get through it and tell me what it means? What about Revelations? One needs the spirit of prophecy as described in the New Testament to understand eternal principles.

I honestly don't know how many have apostatized from the LDS church. I used random numbers to illustrate an example. I doubt there are more than a small handful of people who have split from the LDS church (and formed their own organization) for their own interpretation of who should have succeeded Joseph Smith or what was intended by some revelations.

[a-train]

Xan,

Please stop ignoring these questions. You've made some strong statements on both sides of these issues and I'd like to know where you stand.

Is Jesus NOT our Father in Heaven?

Is He not exalted?

Did He not live on this earth in every way a man?

Did He not pass through life and death?

Does He not have a Father in Heaven like us?

Do we not have any promise from Him that we may become like Him?

Are not these questions answered plainly in the Bible?

And, just so we are perfectly clear: Does God (Jesus) have a body of flesh and bone?

-a-train

[xanmad33]

There are so many doctrinal differences between Mormons and Christians I could be here all week defining them so instead of listing all pf them, I have decided to focus on what I personally believe to be the most important; The Nature of God, or "gods", Jesus, and the Holy Spirit...

I will begin with a few quotes from prominent Mormon leaders including your prophet Joseph Smith...

" I say to the whole world, receive the truth, no matter who presents it to you. Take up the Bible, compare the religion of the Latter-day Saints with it, and see if it will stand the test.

Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Volume 16, Page 46

"Convince us of our errors of doctrine if we have any, by reason, by logical arguments, or by the word of God, and we will be ever grateful for the information" -Orson Pratt

"As a Church we have critics, many of them. They say we do not believe in the traditional Christ of Christianity. There is some substance to what they say..."- Gordon B. Hinkley

"God himself. was Once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret"-Joseph Smith

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I will submit to you the most important questions we should be asking:

*Who is Jesus?

*Why was He born?

*Where is He now?

*What was His “mission”?

*When did He become the Atonement for us?

*How did His death justify our sin?

In the New Testament book of 2 Corinthians, the apostle Paul warns of "another Jesus whom we have not preached... a different spirit which you have not received... a different gospel which you have not accepted" (2 Cor. 11:4).

In the New Testament book of Galatians, Paul again warns: "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!" (Gal. 1:8).

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The Mormon church teaches that "God is only one of many gods", because human beings can progress to become gods and godesses in the celestial kingdom (see: Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball , pp.28, 51-53).

Mormon theology contends that Jesus, God the Father, and the Holy Spirit are three distinct Gods. This teaching is related to the testimony of Joseph Smith, who in one version of his first vision, stated that he saw two separate personages (the Father and the Son) in the form of men:

"When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other 'This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!'" (Joseph Smith History 1:17).

Mormon founder Joseph Smith describes the creation of the earth: "And they (the Gods) said, 'Let there be light'...And the Gods pronounced the dry land...And the Gods organized the earth...And the Gods planted a garden in Eden" (Pearl of Great Price, Abraham 4:3,10,25; 5:8).

A reference to a plurality of 'Gods' occurs at least 43 times in the book of Abraham.

According to Joseph Smith: "...you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves...the same as all Gods have done before you" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.370-372, 346).

Mormon Apostle Bruce McConkie states: "Three separate personages---Father, Son, and Holy Ghost---comprise the Godhead...As each of these persons is a God, it is evident from this standpoint alone, that a plurality of Gods exists. To us...these three are the only Gods we worship" (Mormon Doctrine, p.576-577).

Mormon Apostle Orson Pratt wrote "there are more gods than there are particles of matter" (Journal of Discourses, vol.2, p.345).

Mormon Prophet Brigham Young wrote: "How many Gods there are, I do not know. But there never was a time when there were not Gods" (Journal of Discourses v.7, p.333).

--Bruce McConkie states: "There are three Gods...separate in personality, united in purpose, in plan, and in all attributes of perfection" (Mormon Doctrine, p.270).

--James Talmage states: "This [the Trinity] cannot rationally be construed to mean that the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are one in substance and person" (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.40)

--Heber C. Kimball stated: "The Holy Ghost is a man; he is one of the sons of our Father and our God"

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The Bible consistently declares that there now is, always has been, and will ever be only ONE God. The Biblical idea of the Trinity is based on the reconciliation of many different scriptures, all of which must be true simultaneously, God is described continuously as one God with three distinct persons, the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit. This concept of God's nature is consistent with the entirety of the Bible. It asserts that three divine persons share the same essence (are one and the same God). They are all coequal, coeternal, and of the same nature. A few of the many relevant passages declaring that there now is, always has been, and will ever be only ONE God:

"the Lord, He is God; there is no other besides Him" (Deut. 4:35).

" I am the first, I am also the last and there is no God besides Me" (Is. 44:6, 48:12, 45:14,21-22).

"there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him" (1 Cor. 6:6).

"I am God and there is no other; I am God and there is no one like me" (Is. 46:9).

"...before me there was no God formed, and there will be none after me!" (Is. 43:10).

"For when God made the promise to Abraham, since he could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself" (Heb. 6:13).

"Thou alone art the LORD; thou hast made the heavens, the heaven of heavens with all their host, the earth and all that is on it" (Neh. 9:6).

There are many additional verses: including Isaiah chp. 45-49, 1 Tim. 1:17.

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[xanmad33]

Regarding God the Father, the Bible emphatically states:

"The Lord is our God, the Lord is one!" (Deut. 6:4, Mark 12:29).

" I am the first, I am also the last and there is no God besides Me" (Is. 44:6, 48:12, 45:14,21-22).

"the Lord, He is God; there is no other besides Him" (Deut. 4:35).

Yet, both Jesus and the Holy Spirit are also identified with, and act as, God:

"In Him [Jesus] all the fulness of Deity dwells in bodily form" (Col. 2:9).

"He [Jesus] is the radiance of His [God's] glory and the exact representation of His nature" (Heb. 1:3).

"But of the Son He [God] says, ‘Thy Throne O God is forever and ever’" (Heb. 1:8).

"Thomas answered [to Jesus] ‘My Lord and My God’" (John 20:28).

Jesus claimed: "I and the Father are one", meaning in essence (based on the Greek construction). Some Mormons would argue this just means 'one in purpose', but the Jews clearly understood Jesus' statement as blasphemy because they "took up stones again to stone Him" (Jn. 10:30-31).

Jesus also claimed: "Before Abraham was born, I AM" (Jn. 8:58), a restatement of the name God used for himself to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM" (Ex. 3:14); the Jews understood this, too, as blasphemy, and tried to stone Jesus again (Jn. 8:59).

"God is spirit and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth" (Jn. 4:24).

"Now the Lord is the Spirit" (2 Cor. 3:17).

"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all" (2 Cor. 13:14);

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The Mormon church teaches that "God was once a man who achieved godhood". This doctrine, "eternal progression" is central to Mormonism, as stated in one of their frequently-used quotes:

"As man is, God once was: as God is, man may be" (Lorenzo Snow, Millenial Star, vol.54).

In Mormon theology, those who achieve godhood will have spirit children who will worship and pray to them just as we worship and pray to God the Father (Gospel Principles, p.290).

Brigham Young taught: "He [God] ...was once a man in mortal flesh as we are, and is now an exalted being...It appears ridiculous to the world, under their darkened and erroneous traditions, that God was once been a finite being" (Journal of Discourses, vol.7, p.333); "The Lord created you and me for the purpose of becoming Gods like himself" (Journal of Discourses, vol.3, p.93).

Here is Joseph Smith's revelation about Mormons attaining to the celestial kingdom: "These are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized...who have received of his fullness, and of his glory...they are gods" (Doctrine and Covenants 76: 51-58).

James Talmage explains: "We believe in a God who is Himself progressive...whose perfection consists in eternal advancement...a Being who has attained His exalted state"(A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.430, 1952).

Heber C. Kimbal wrote: "We shall go back to our Father and God, who is connected with one who is still farther back; and this Father is connected with one still farther back, and so on" (Journal of Discourses, vol.5, p.19); "our God is a natural man...where did he get his knowledge from? From his father, just as we get our knowledge from our earthly parents" (Journal of Discourses, vol.8, p.211).

Orson Pratt wrote: "The Gods who dwell in heaven...were once in a fallen state...they were exalted also, from fallen men to celestial Gods" (The Seer, p.23); "our Father in Heaven was begotten on a previous heavenly world by His Father; "He was begotten by a still more ancient Father; and so on from generation to generation, from one heavenly world to another" (The Seer, p.132).

Milton R. Hunter wrote: "God the Eternal Father was once a mortal man who passed through a school of earth life similar to that through which we are now passing. He became a God" (The Gospel Through the Ages, p.104);"there was a time when the Deity was much less powerful than He is today...He grew in experience and continued to grow until He attained the status of Godhood. In other words, He became a God by absolute obedience..." (The Gospel Through the Ages, p.114-115).

Bruce McConkie states: "God himself, the Father of us all, is a glorious, exalted, immortal, resurrected man" (Mormon Doctrine, p.642-643); "God...is a personal Being, a holy and exalted man...an anthropomorphic entity" (Mormon Doctrine, p.250); "as the Prophet [Joseph Smith] also taught, 'there is a God above the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ'" (Mormon Doctrine, p.322, 1966).

Joseph Fielding Smith stated: "God is an exalted man...our Father in Heaven at one time passed through a life and death and is an exalted man...The Prophet [Joseph Smith] taught that our Father had a Father and so on...promises are made to us that we may become like him" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol.1, p.10-12).

[xanmad33]

The Bible teaches however that God is unchangeable and that He has eternally existed as God:

"I am God and not man, the Holy One" (Hosea 11:8)

"God is not a man that He should lie" (Num. 23:19)

"Even from everlasting to everlasting, Thou art God" (Ps. 90:2)

"Thou art from everlasting" (Ps. 93:2)

"Thou art the same" (Ps. 102:27)

"For I, the Lord, do not change" (Mal. 3:6)

See also: Is. 43:10; Is. 44:6, 8; Is. 48:11.

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7. In Mormon theology, "God has flesh and bones" and is therefore limited in capacity. According to Mormon authors:

"God is an organized being just as we are who are now in the flesh" (Gospel Doctrine, p.64).

"The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's (Doctrine and Covenants 130:22).

"God is not omnipresent...cannot be physically present in more than one place at a time"; "If God possesses a form, that form is of necessity of definite proportions, and therefore of limited extension and space. It is impossible for Him to occupy at one time more than one space of such limits" (Talmage, A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.43,48).

Brigham Young declared: "Some would have us believe that God is present everywhere. It is not so" (Journal of Discourses, vol.6, p.345).

Carfred Broderick writes: "God is a procreating personage of flesh and bone" (Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Autumn, 1967, p.100-101).

===================

Is it God or Gods?

Is there a Mrs. God?

Is anything impossible for God?

Is Jesus God?

Mormonism - Mormons hold that Jesus was in fact created, not creator. Mormon teaching also asserts that Jesus and Satan are brothers. "The appointment of Jesus to be the Savior of the world was contested by one of the other sons of God. He was called Lucifer--this spirit-brother of Jesus desperately tried to become the Savior of mankind." Milton R. Hunter, The Gospel Through the Ages, p. 15.

Christianity - Jesus is the only begotten Son (in the Hebrew "begotten" means heir, not off-spring) and He is God the Son. John 1:1 reads "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God." John 1:14 goes onto say "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us."

Here it is explained very well:

Clearly the Bible, particularly the Gospel According to John, is telling us the story of Jesus. Jesus is described as the "Word." The "Word" is called God. Not "A God" but God! The Gospel of John then says that this God, known as the "Word" became flesh, real, temporal and tangible and lived among us. We know Jesus did this and this is afterall, the Gospel of Christ according to John. More evidence shows that Jesus called Himself God and the Jews tried to stone him for it, John 10:30-33. "We are not stoning you for any of these,” replied the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.” Clearly the Jews understood Jesus' meaning, else why would they attempt to stone Him? Is. 44:6, God of the Old Testiment says "I am the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last." Rev. 1:18, Jesus says, "I am the Alpha and Omega the First and the Last." Which of the two is lying? They both can't be first and last unless they are one in the same. Is. 43:10 God says, "Before me there were no gods formed, nor will there be after." If Jesus is "A" God, then this scripture would have to be wrong because Jesus' very existence, given the Mormon position that Jesus is A god but not Father God, would be evidence of another God. Therefore, God was wrong that there would be no other gods. And being wrong would make Him imperfect. And if He is imperfect, He is therefore not God. By contrast, if Jesus "IS" God, then this scripture remains true and consistent with his claims of deity in John 10, Rev. 1 and the claims of Isaiah's prophecy of the coming Savior in Is. 9:6 where Isaiah calls him "Wonderful, Counselor, All Mighty God, the Everlasting FATHER, the Prince of Peace." Finally, only God can forgive sins and yet on several occasions in the gospels we see Jesus forgiving sin. Matt. 9:2, Lk. 7:48.

[xanmad33]

Mormonism - "The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's," Doctrine and Covenents, 130:22. "If God possesses a form, that form is of necessity of definite proportions, and therefore of limited extention and space. It is impossible for Him to occupy at one time more than one space of such limits." James Talmage, Articles of Faith, page 43.

It is the Bible's explicit teaching that God is omnipresent (Psalm 139:3-10, 1 Kings 8:27, Jer. 23:23-24, Acts 17:24-27, Matt 18:20),.

Consider some more scripture

1. DEUTERONOMY 4:35,39 — Unto thee it was shown, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him. (39) Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.

2. DEUTERONOMY 6:4 — Hear, O Israel: The LORD thy God is one LORD. [Note in Mark 12:28-34 how Jesus and a Jewish scribe he encountered understood this text.]

3. DEUTERONOMY 32:39 — See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

4. 2 SAMUEL 7:22 — Wherefore thou art great, O LORD God; for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.

5. 1 KINGS 8:60 — That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD is God, and that there is none else.

6. 2 KINGS 5:15 — And he returned to the man of God, he and all his company, and came, and stood before him: and he said, Behold, now I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel; now therefore, I pray thee, take a blessing of thy servant.

7. 2 KINGS 19:15 — And Hezekiah prayed before the LORD, and said, O LORD God of Israel, which dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; thou hast made heaven and earth.

8. 1 CHRONICLES 17:20 — O LORD, there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.

9. NEHEMIAH 9:6 — Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou has made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.

10. PSALM 18:31 — For who is God save the LORD? or who is a rock save our God?

11. PSALM 86:10 — For thou art great, and doest wondrous things: thou art God alone.

12. ISAIAH 37:16,20 — O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou has made heaven and earth. (20) Now therefore, O LORD our God, save us from his hand, that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that thou art the LORD, even thou only.

13. ISAIAH 43:10,11 — Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no savior.

14. ISAIAH 44:6,8 — Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. Fear ye not, neither be afraid; have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

15. ISAIAH 45:21 — Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time: who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Savior; there is none beside me.

16. ISAIAH 46:9 — For I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me.

17. HOSEA 13:4 — Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me; for there is no savior beside me.

18. JOEL 2:27 — And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.

19. ZECHARIAH 14:9 — And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

20. MARK 12:29-34 —And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbor as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.

21. JOHN 17:3 — And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

22. ROMANS 3:30 — Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

23. 1 CORINTHIANS 8:4-6 — As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

24. GALATIANS 3:20 — Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

25. EPHESIANS 4:6 — One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

26. 1 TIMOTHY 1:17 — Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

27. 1 TIMOTHY 2:5 — For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

28. JAMES 2:19 — Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

[xanmad33]

Lastly, here is a good read regarding the priesthood authority, and what the Bible has to say:

"Jesus was not merely another in succession of priests, but His priesthood was unique. There had not been one like it before, and there will not be one like it again. His priesthood is the climax and culmination of priesthood before God.

Why was Jesus' priesthood unique? According to the Bible:

Jesus' priesthood is superior due to a better calling. Other priests were chosen, but Jesus was called with an oath (Heb. 5:5; 7:21). God, who could swear by no greater than Himself, proclaimed Jesus to be a priest after the order of Melchizedek.

Jesus' priesthood is superior due to a better covenant (Heb. 7:22; 8:6; 9:15). God found fault with the old covenant in that it could not accomplish the salvation of Israel. So He made a new covenant, and Jesus is the mediator of that covenant (cf. 1 Tim. 2:5-6).

Jesus' priesthood is superior due to a better sacrifice (Heb. 9:11ff). Those who served in the Levitical priesthood offered sacrifices annually according to commandment. Those sacrifices did not serve to put away sin. Jesus, however, by one sacrifice, forever put away sin, and now sits at God the Father's right hand (Heb. 9:24ff; 10:12).

Jesus' priesthood is unique due to an indestructible life (Heb.7:16). Many men over several centuries served in the Levitical priesthood, yet none of them could continue because of death (Heb. 7:23-25).

Furthermore, the Bible states that all Christians are now priests:

"You are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation" (1 Peter 2:9).

"You also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood" (1 Peter 2:5).

The believer-as-a-priest concept is important because in other religions a priest serves as an essential intermediary between man and God. A fundamental uniqueness of Christianity is that Jesus abolished this:

"For there is one God and one mediator also between God and man, the Man Christ Jesus" (1 Tim.2:5).

"Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins" (Heb 10:11), but "He [Jesus], having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time" (Heb. 10:12) "has perfected for all time those who are sanctified" (Heb. 10:14) so that "There is no longer any offering for sin" (Heb. 10:18).

Therefore, the Bible says that "God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us through His Son" (Heb. 1:1).

[skalenfehl]

And by the spirit of prophecy can you understand the true meaning and context of all of those scriptures and quotes.

[a-train]

Xan,

Please stop ignoring these questions. You've made some strong statements on both sides of these issues and I'd like to know where you stand.

Is Jesus NOT our Father in Heaven?

Is He not exalted?

Did He not live on this earth in every way a man?

Did He not pass through life and death?

Does He not have a Father in Heaven like us?

Do we not have any promise from Him that we may become like Him?

Are not these questions answered plainly in the Bible?

And, just so we are perfectly clear: Does God (Jesus) have a body of flesh and bone?

You can ignore these questions and me all you want. But when I am long gone, the answers to these questions will still be just as important.

-a-train

[a-train]

Mormons hold that Jesus was in fact created, not creator.

This is an utterly false statement in every way. Retract it please.

-a-train

[skalenfehl]

Honestly, xanmad, I could pick apart every scripture and quote you just posted (some out of context and some incomplete), but to what end? And I legitimately provided your litmus tests as you requested.

Respectfully.