The Third That Went Astray

[DisRuptive1]

I'm curious. Can the third that chose Satan's plan repent from their mistake of siding with him and warring with the remaining spirits in the pre-existance? Or does that not count as one mistake.

If you knew that you really had no chance of coming back to live with Heavenly Father, would you choose the plan that would allow you to come back, no matter what? Would you choose Satan's plan if it meant that you'd have to spend your entire life doing what you were told in order to come back or would you choose to be free to do what you want even though you knew that your actions would prevent you from coming back?

Are the third that chose Satan damned for eternity?

[DisRuptive1]

Bump

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by DisRuptive1@Jun 11 2004, 11:12 PM

I'm curious. Can the third that chose Satan's plan repent from their mistake of siding with him and warring with the remaining spirits in the pre-existance? Or does that not count as one mistake.

If you knew that you really had no chance of coming back to live with Heavenly Father, would you choose the plan that would allow you to come back, no matter what? Would you choose Satan's plan if it meant that you'd have to spend your entire life doing what you were told in order to come back or would you choose to be free to do what you want even though you knew that your actions would prevent you from coming back?

Are the third that chose Satan damned for eternity?

I think that you would have to ask all the X mormons the same question....

If you knew that you would loose the chance to live with Father in Heaven when you rejected the church...and gospel.....would you still do it...

Do you believe they don't really know what they are doing?

[DisRuptive1]

Maybe in the pre-existance they didn't think that they would be ok when they came to Earth. Maybe they figured that they would sin a lot and if they were given free agency they would abuse it and wouldn't be able to return to Heavenly Father. So maybe they chose the plan, Satan's plan, that would allow them to return to Heavenly Father regardless of what happened.

Think of it this way. If you were forced to take a trip halfway around the world, would you choose to go first class even though it would be difficult to come back or would you go economy if it would be easy to get back?

It's a weird analogy but works all the same.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by DisRuptive1@Jun 11 2004, 11:12 PM

I'm curious.  Can the third that chose Satan's plan repent from their mistake of siding with him and warring with the remaining spirits in the pre-existance?  Or does that not count as one mistake.

I don't think that they can repent from that decision owing to the fact that they were present with God and knew His glory and decided that they did not want a part of it, or thought Satan had the stronger position. But either way, they knew what the consequences to their decisions would be.

If you knew that you really had no chance of coming back to live with Heavenly Father, would you choose the plan that would allow you to come back, no matter what?  Would you choose Satan's plan if it meant that you'd have to spend your entire life doing what you were told in order to come back or would you choose to be free to do what you want even though you knew that your actions would prevent you from coming back?

What do you mean by "coming back"? Do you mean Celestial Glory?

This is my opinion only, because I can only make decisions for me. But, I feel that I have done things purposely in my life knowing that they are things that come between me and God (sort of like almost denying my testimony, but not quite). I know that by doing those things, I am no longer bound for Celestial Glory, but that doesn't mean that I love the Father any less and that I am really sorry I chose to do those things. So, for me, I would not choose to do things to side with Satan just so I can "come back".

Are the third that chose Satan damned for eternity?

Yes.

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by Jenda@Jun 17 2004, 07:51 AM

But, I feel that I have done things purposely in my life knowing that they are things that come between me and God (sort of like almost denying my testimony, but not quite). I know that by doing those things, I am no longer bound for Celestial Glory, but that doesn't mean that I love the Father any less and that I am really sorry I chose to do those things. So, for me, I would not choose to do things to side with Satan just so I can "come back".

Jenda,

What about forgiveness? Don't you believe that you can be forgiven for these things and still go to the celestial kingdom?

[Jenda]

Originally posted by shanstress70+Jun 17 2004, 06:17 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (shanstress70 @ Jun 17 2004, 06:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Jenda@Jun 17 2004, 07:51 AM

But, I feel that I have done things purposely in my life knowing that they are things that come between me and God (sort of like almost denying my testimony, but not quite).  I know that by doing those things, I am no longer bound for Celestial Glory, but that doesn't mean that I love the Father any less and that I am really sorry I chose to do those things.  So, for me, I would not choose to do things to side with Satan just so I can "come back".

Jenda,

What about forgiveness? Don't you believe that you can be forgiven for these things and still go to the celestial kingdom?

I believe that when I have made a covenant with God and understand which things he allows and which things he frowns on (commands us not to do), and do the things he frowns on anyway, then I have sealed my own fate.

See, I see a difference between the types of sin that we do daily, unintentionally, unknowingly, and those things that are intentional. I believe that God makes that differentiation, also. The unintentional sin is the type that we find ourselves doing without realizing it and are ashamed of it and try to cast it out of our lives. The intentional kind is.......... well ................. intentional.

[shanstress70]

Very interesting! Thanks for explaining.

[srm]

Originally posted by DisRuptive1@Jun 11 2004, 11:12 PM

I'm curious. Can the third that chose Satan's plan repent from their mistake of siding with him and warring with the remaining spirits in the pre-existance? Or does that not count as one mistake.

If you knew that you really had no chance of coming back to live with Heavenly Father, would you choose the plan that would allow you to come back, no matter what? Would you choose Satan's plan if it meant that you'd have to spend your entire life doing what you were told in order to come back or would you choose to be free to do what you want even though you knew that your actions would prevent you from coming back?

Are the third that chose Satan damned for eternity?

The real issue is not which plan to use, it is which plan will provide the means to return to live w/ God. Satan's plan would not provide the means to return to God. it was based on a lie. agency is an imperative.

[Guest Chell]

Originally posted by srm+Jun 17 2004, 04:20 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (srm @ Jun 17 2004, 04:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--DisRuptive1@Jun 11 2004, 11:12 PM

I'm curious.  Can the third that chose Satan's plan repent from their mistake of siding with him and warring with the remaining spirits in the pre-existance?  Or does that not count as one mistake.

If you knew that you really had no chance of coming back to live with Heavenly Father, would you choose the plan that would allow you to come back, no matter what?  Would you choose Satan's plan if it meant that you'd have to spend your entire life doing what you were told in order to come back or would you choose to be free to do what you want even though you knew that your actions would prevent you from coming back?

Are the third that chose Satan damned for eternity?

The real issue is not which plan to use, it is which plan will provide the means to return to live w/ God. Satan's plan would not provide the means to return to God. it was based on a lie. agency is an imperative.

Agency is imperative. I am not sure everyone really understands how vital it is to progression and existence.

The truth shall make us free. Without truth, no one can be free or have agency. But there must be opposition to have choice or agency and some fall into that role willingly.

[Lindy]

Good posts Jenda....I agree with your thoughts myself.

I look back on peer pressure as a teen.... even with all the warnings and lectures and KNOWING that doing something could have extreme consequences.... teens will listen to friends, or others who paint this rosy...."it's sooooo coool" picture. Those who listen to the warnings, and lectures...and contemplate the logic behind the concerns will have a stronger stance against the wrong choices.

I am sure that we all have done some pretty stupid things in our lifetime, and wish that we hadn't....there are things that we have done that we (hopefully) can find reparation, or to compensate for, but there are others things that we can never compensate, thing we can't repair, things that have no reversal.

Hopefully we will have learned from the mistakes that we have made, or the mistakes that others have made...but we have to be held accountable for the things we do, the choices that we make; and sometimes the consequences of our actions are not easy...but it is OUR consequence for OUR action....sadly remembering that there are things that can never be fixed.

Those who chose to follow satan, chose to follow satan, where ever he leads them...it's too late, it was the biggest choice of their eternal life.

They chose wrong, the consequences (IMHO) are irreversible.

[Ray]

Originally posted by Jenda@ Jun 17 2004, 05:51 AM

This is my opinion only, because I can only make decisions for me. But, I feel that I have done things purposely in my life knowing that they are things that come between me and God (sort of like almost denying my testimony, but not quite). I know that by doing those things, I am no longer bound for Celestial Glory, but that doesn't mean that I love the Father any less and that I am really sorry I chose to do those things. So, for me, I would not choose to do things to side with Satan just so I can "come back".

Jenda,

I think you’re thinking that you cannot be forgiven for those things because you’re thinking that your decision to deliberately do those things constitutes the denial of the Holy Ghost, but I beg do differ. Unless you’re talking about something like murder, in which case you’re right because you cannot make amends for something like that. But for most other things you can repent, which means to make amends and change from the person you’ve been to the person God wants you to be. In other words, as long as you can make amends, you can repent, and as long as you can repent, you can be forgiven. And of course this is only possible because of the atonement of Christ.

To deny the Holy Ghost means to deny the power of the Holy Ghost, which is the power that helps you change from the person you are to the person God wants you to be. If you deny that power, you cannot be forgiven, because you are not willing to be changed into the person God wants you to be. You will then suffer the consequences of your actions, because you would not repent.

I believe that when I have made a covenant with God and understand which things he allows and which things he frowns on (commands us not to do), and do the things he frowns on anyway, then I have sealed my own fate.

I believe we seal our fate only if we continue to do those things we know we should not be doing. If we do something that we DON”T know that we should be doing, we are considered to be totally innocent, because we didn’t know the law against that. But once we do know the law, we are then held responsible for our actions, meaning that we will be punished for violating the law. But there is a way to escape punishment for violating the law, and that is through repentance.

Heh, if nobody could repent because they had knowingly violated the law, then repentance wouldn’t do a whole lot of good, would it, because people who don’t know the law can’t repent.

The thing that we need to understand about the hosts of heaven that cannot be forgiven is that they knew the law and would not repent, as evidenced by their willingness to go to war against God. Can you imagine that? They were so set in their ways that they would not repent, that they would actually fight against God. Consider Lucifer, for example. He can’t possibly prevail against God, yet he continues to fight God anyway. You would think that after ??? thousands of years he would get the point and stop fighting, and just leave everybody else alone. But he doesn’t do that, does he. Once you understand the reasons why, you will understand why some people cannot be forgiven, and that is because they will not repent.

[Guest Chell]

Thanks Ray. That helped me feel right about this thread.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Jenda@Jun 17 2004, 05:51 AM

But, I feel that I have done things purposely in my life knowing that they are things that come between me and God (sort of like almost denying my testimony, but not quite). I know that by doing those things, I am no longer bound for Celestial Glory, but that doesn't mean that I love the Father any less and that I am really sorry I chose to do those things.

Jenda, can you clarify this a little? Do you believe that once we enter into a binding covenant of obedience that there is no forgiveness after that point if we make a conscious choice to sin? It sounds like you feel that you have disqualified yourself for eternity from the Celestial kingdom because of some choices you've made. Am I reading this right?

[Jenda]

Originally posted by curvette+Jun 17 2004, 12:15 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ Jun 17 2004, 12:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Jenda@Jun 17 2004, 05:51 AM

But, I feel that I have done things purposely in my life knowing that they are things that come between me and God (sort of like almost denying my testimony, but not quite).  I know that by doing those things, I am no longer bound for Celestial Glory, but that doesn't mean that I love the Father any less and that I am really sorry I chose to do those things.

Jenda, can you clarify this a little? Do you believe that once we enter into a binding covenant of obedience that there is no forgiveness after that point if we make a conscious choice to sin? It sounds like you feel that you have disqualified yourself for eternity from the Celestial kingdom because of some choices you've made. Am I reading this right?

I don't mean to imply that there is no forgiveness, because that is not what this revolves around, IMO. God does forgive us. When we sin a normal sin, B) , we know we have sinned and are sorry for it. We didn't do it on purpose, maybe we didn't know that one of our actions would hurt another. I am sure we have all said or done things to another that we don't have the foggiest idea of the pain it caused. But because it was unintentional, as is probably 99% of the sins we commit, as long as we repent, we are forgiven.

But there are some sins, as Ray commented earlier (and murder isn't the only one), that are not forgiveable, and God has called them abominations. Ray picked up on the part of my post that was important to the discussion, and that was the part about the covenant. When we make a covenant with God, we agree to keep his commandments, and if we don't, we are liable to suffer the consequences.

It is hard for me to believe that I can do whatever I want as long as I repent for it afterward. That goes against everything I believe to be true. It is more akin to the born-againers who believe in once saved-always saved.

Section 76 lists, beyond a shadow of a doubt where those who commit those types of acts will go. Maybe I am reading much more into it than I should, and maybe they are talking about unrepentant people, but it doesn't necessarily say that, so all I can do is repent and hope the Lord is having a good day when He assigns us our final resting place.

[Ray]

It is hard for me to believe that I can do whatever I want as long as I repent for it afterward.

That, my friend, is the miracle of forgiveness. But the catch is that you must truly repent.

If you commit a sin twice, you didn’t repent the first time, did you? So you must continue to try to repent until you actually do.

And do you realize that it’s much harder to stop doing something once you have shown a pattern to keep repeating your actions?

And do you realize that you remain in bondage to sin until you fully repent?

I don’t really want to talk you out of your current belief about this, though, because for the most part your belief is helping you develop a stronger aversion to sin, but at the same time, I would like you to understand that the grace and mercy of our Lord is far beyond what you imagine. If there is any way for Him to forgive someone without robbing justice, He will. And justice requires only that you make amends for what you can and stop doing what you know you should not do. Until then, you’re only punishing yourself.

Btw, this misunderstanding is not uncommon. Authorities in the Church talk to people all the time about how they still have hope of achieving a glorious future as long as they truly repent.

You’re talking to someone who became inactive in the Church and later came back !!!

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Jenda@Jun 17 2004, 12:30 PM

I don't mean to imply that there is no forgiveness, because that is not what this revolves around, IMO. God does forgive us. When we sin a normal sin, B) , we know we have sinned and are sorry for it. We didn't do it on purpose, maybe we didn't know that one of our actions would hurt another. I am sure we have all said or done things to another that we don't have the foggiest idea of the pain it caused. But because it was unintentional, as is probably 99% of the sins we commit, as long as we repent, we are forgiven.

I know that there are some scriptures that could be interpreted that way. Isn't there a scripture somewhere (my memory is bad) that says something to the effect that where there is no law there is no punishment? I've always thought that all sinning MUST be intentional. Can we really sin if we aren't even aware that we are doing something wrong? I know you are very well read and I'm sure your view is scriptural. That interpretation just seems awfully harsh and unattainable.

[Guest Starsky]

Luke 12: 48

48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

D&C 82: 3

3 For of him unto whom much is given much is required; and he who sins against the greater light shall receive the greater condemnation.

There are lots of statements which indicate there is some accountability on every level except that of a child...

The question is 'how much'...

[Arcobaleno Nero]

My thoughts...

IF the 1/3 that fell with Satan and "kept not their fist estate" can repent and eventually make it to the Celestial Kingdom then it stands to reason that those of us here (the 2/3's that kept their first estate) can REJECT the plan of salvation and go to where ever {lesser degrees of glory or "outer darkness"} and at a later date repent and go to Heaven at our own convenience. Thus making the whole "plan" one eternal joke, and the scriptures nothing more than a book of good ieas.

I do not believe it is anywhere near possible for those who kept not their fist estate to ever recieve any degree of glory.

And before I knew LDS doctrine I would say they would never go to Heaven.

[Ray]

Is it your understanding that someone has said that the fallen hosts of heaven can be redeemed? It is my understanding that nobody has said that.

It is also my understanding that nobody has said that someone can reject the plan of salvation and then later be redeemed.

For a nice little discourse on how it all works, I’ll refer you to Alma chapter 12.

[Nicodemus]

I have another question.

In this world, Elohim received His exaltation and created us and one-third of us fell away by free agency.

Is it not possible that in another system with another deity that perhaps one-half might fall away under that system?

Is it not possible that ALL will abuse their free agency and rebel? Or that none will? Couldn't it be possible that in some system the pre-existant spirits will all be happy and content with allowing the firstborn to be the Messiah and everyone keep their free will- so that no one rebels? I was slightly curious about this.

The paradox lies in that if NO one rebels- there is no Messiah! It is an interesting thought that they were planning the salvation from the work of the evil one before an evil one existed. Even more interesting that this planning was the direct CAUSE of the fall that would necessitate a Messiah.

[Arcobaleno Nero]

Originally posted by Ray@Jun 17 2004, 05:03 PM

Is it your understanding that someone has said that the fallen hosts of heaven can be redeemed? It is my understanding that nobody has said that.

It is also my understanding that nobody has said that someone can reject the plan of salvation and then later be redeemed.

I thought that the "debate" on wether or not the third that fell could repent was the TOPIC of this thread? After all the name of this thread is "The Third That Went Astray".

And my point about rejecting the plan of salvation was in context with the thrid that fell and IF they could repent. That IF they could so could we when ever we feel like it.

Are we on the same page now?

[Arcobaleno Nero]

Originally posted by Nicodemus@Jun 17 2004, 05:13 PM

I have another question.

In this world, Elohim received His exaltation and created us and one-third of us fell away by free agency.

Is it not possible that in another system with another deity that perhaps one-half might fall away under that system?

Is it not possible that ALL will abuse their free agency and rebel?  Or that none will?  Couldn't it be possible that in some system the pre-existant spirits will all be happy and content with allowing the firstborn to be the Messiah and everyone keep their free will- so that no one rebels?  I was slightly curious about this.

The paradox lies in that if NO one rebels- there is no Messiah!  It is an interesting thought that they were planning the salvation from the work of the evil one before an evil one existed.  Even more interesting that this planning was the direct CAUSE of the fall that would necessitate a Messiah.

Why do you think He was exalted in "THIS" world? I mean He is going to make this world perfect for eternity...wouldnt the world He "came from" have been made eternally perfect also?

And in reguards to the rest of what you said, I can only think to quote..."opposition in ALL things..."

[Arcobaleno Nero]

Originally posted by DisRuptive1@Jun 12 2004, 12:12 AM

I'm curious. Can the third that chose Satan's plan repent from their mistake of siding with him and warring with the remaining spirits in the pre-existance? Or does that not count as one mistake...

...Are the third that chose Satan damned for eternity?

Ray, read above.

[Ray]

Originally posted by Arcobaleno Nero+Jun 17 2004, 04:37 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Arcobaleno Nero @ Jun 17 2004, 04:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Ray@Jun 17 2004, 05:03 PM

Is it your understanding that someone has said that the fallen hosts of heaven can be redeemed?  It is my understanding that nobody has said that.

It is also my understanding that nobody has said that someone can reject the plan of salvation and then later be redeemed.

I thought that the "debate" on wether or not the third that fell could repent was the TOPIC of this thread? After all the name of this thread is "The Third That Went Astray".

And my point about rejecting the plan of salvation was in context with the thrid that fell and IF they could repent. That IF they could so could we when ever we feel like it.

Are we on the same page now?

That was the question, but I don't think anyone has asserted that they could. If they did, I missed it.