Trinity?

[Traveler]

Originally posted by Setheus+Jun 23 2004, 08:01 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Setheus @ Jun 23 2004, 08:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--ExMormon-Jason@Jun 22 2004, 03:59 PM

Who says that being "perfect" means we become like God? 

God created Cherbum, Seraphim, and Angels, but they are not gods. 

"And in Isaiah the Lord was speaking about His ways/thoughts being higher than ours here in this mortal world. (Duh! Of course they are but we get big heads and forget so He had to point it out.) And when we are in Heaven with Him then we will not dwell "lower" than Him."

That's not what the Bible says.

Since "perfect" can only be one thing...ie you are either perfect or not perfect...then it stands to reason that only a god can be perfect. Part of being perfect is being complete. If we do not attain the potential for which we were created then we are incomplete and thus not "perfect".

It would make sence that Cherbum, Seraphim, and Angels, are as D&C say are those who did not keep the new and everlasting covenant and did not pass by the angels....but became angels. These are just ranks of angels...or servants of God.

So they are infact His children.

Actually perfect means complete as far as covenants and proving oneself in the trial of the covenant. This is why Jesus referred to his Father as perfect and not himself - he had not completed his conventual trial.

What is a Cherub? A Cherub is not an angel??? There is not a single scripture that tells us that a Cherub is an angel. If fact there is not any ancient record keeper anywhere prior to the advent of the Apostles that even suggested that a Cherub is an angel. The Book of Enoch that list a complete ranking of angels does not list Cherub as an angel.

Where and when did the notion that a Cherub is an angel come from. It was manufactured during the Dark Ages by Trinitarian conspiracy to avoid the problems knowing the truth about Cherubs causes the Trinitarian creed. . The ancient Hebrew word in the Old Testament that is translated into Cherub has no translation in any modern language - So how did we get the translation in today’s Bibles as Cherub. The answer has to do with Paul. Paul who was an expert in doctrine and the Greek language made reference to the Cherubim of the Old Testament and wrote Cherubim in the Greek - and it stuck.

A couple of thing about the word Cherub. It is a Greek word for a g-d. One of the most famous Greeks Cherub (g-d) is Cupid. Remember the Greek g-d with the love arrows? Paul spent most of his ministry teaching Greeks and various peoples that spoke Greek. Paul was an expert in the Greek language and an expert in doctrine. His letters now comprise much of the New Testament and were written mostly in Greek. Why would Paul use a Greek term that means a kind of g-d and address Greeks in their own language and use a term that means g-d and never make a correction that a Cherub is not a g-d but really an angel? Duh - it is because he knew that a Cherub was a g-d. Why explain the truth when is was understood by almost everyone of his time?

So why do so many Christians think a Cherub is an angel? Because the Trinitarians have been teaching this misleading doctrine for almost 2000 years without any scriptural reference and few question the Trinitarian authority - especially Trinitarians that make up the large majority of Christians.

The Traveler

[Ray]

Cherubim and a flaming sword guard the way to the tree of life.

Hmmm.

We know what the tree of life represents, don't we.

And here we have someone revealing what Cherubim are.

Anyone care to venture a guess as to what a flaming sword represents?

:)

[Jason]

"A more difficult question is, what were the cherubim mentioned, Gen.3:24; Exod. 25:18; I Kings 6:23; Ps. 18:10; Ezek. 10:5, 7, &c., and most probably, under the name of seraphim, in Is. 6:2. It is very evident, also, that the "living creatures, described in Ezekiel’s vision, 1:5, as accompanying the wheels, and sustaining the divine throne, were the same. Dr. Fairbairn, the most quoted of modern interpreters of types and symbols, teaches that the cherubim are not existences at all, but mere ideal symbols, representing humanity redeemed and glorified. His chief argument, omitting many fanciful ones drawn from the fourfold nature, and their wings, &c., is: that they are manifestly identical with the Zoa of Rev. 4:6-8, which evidently symbolize, 5:8-10, somehow, the ransomed Church.

"The great objections are, that the identification is not certain, inasmuch as John’s Zoa had but one face each; that there is no propriety in founding God’s heavenly throne and providence on glorified humanity, as His immediate attendants; but chiefly, that while it might consist with prophetic vision to make them ideal symbols, it utterly outrages the plain narrative of Gen. 3:24. And the duty of the cherubim, there described, obstructing sinful man’s approach to the tree of life, with a flaming sword, the symbol of justice, is one utterly unfitted to redeemed and glorified humanity. Hence, I believe, with the current of older divines, that the cherubim are not identical with John’s "living creatures," but are angels, like all the others, real, spiritual, intelligent beings; and that when God was pleased to appear to Isaiah and Ezekiel in prophetic vision, they received temporarily these mixed forms, to be symbolical of certain traits of obedience, intelligence, strength, and swiftness, which they show as ministers of God’s providence and worshippers of His upper sanctuary. (The etymology of the word is utterly obscure.)"

-RL Dabney

The name angel, which signifies a messenger, can be applied to ordinary messengers, Job 1:14; Luke 7:24; to prophets, Is. 42:19; Mal. 3:1; to priests, Mal. 2:7; to ministers of the Church, Rev. 1:20, and to the Messiah, Mal. 3:1; Is. 63:9, etc. They are called angels generally, because they fulfill missions for God.

[Jason]

You know, the more I visit this place, the more I realize that I don't know crap. Im little more than a wannabe amature regarding Theology.

Unfortunately, the same seems true for everyone else here. Anyone here have a Masters or Doctorate in Theology or Divinity?

Makes me wonder why we bother at all......

[Snow]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Jun 23 2004, 10:52 PM

Unfortunately, the same seems true for everyone else here. Anyone here have a Masters or Doctorate in Theology or Divinity?

Two years ago Trident used to claim that he was almost ready to graduate with the equivalent of a Master's Degree in Bible Studies.

... there isn't a smilies that has the expression I picturing...

[Traveler]

Originally posted by Ray@Jun 23 2004, 08:26 PM

Cherubim and a flaming sword guard the way to the tree of life.

Hmmm.

We know what the tree of life represents, don't we.

And here we have someone revealing what Cherubim are.

Anyone care to venture a guess as to what a flaming sword represents?

:)

The Tree of life represents eternal life with the Father. The fall of man prevented man form partaking of the Tree of Life. In the scriptures cherubim always come in two's. There is a reason for this that I do not have time to cover right now.

The Cherubim were not meant to keep man from the tree of life but to "Keep the way" or to make sure man is qualified before partaking of the fruit of the Tree of Life. Now ask yourself - Who do the scriptures testify of? Who is the keeper of the way to eternal life? Who said I am the way the truth and the life - No man comes unto the Father but by me?

Now if you want to understand the symbolism concerning the flaiming sword - ask yourself this: Where in scripture does man encountering a being with fire and a sword on their way to eternal life? I know of one place in scripture - Revelation Chapter 19.

Cherubim my friends are g-ds. The scriptures testify of this truth but only for those that have eyes to see and ears to hear.

The Traveler

[Maureen]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Jun 23 2004, 10:52 PM

You know, the more I visit this place, the more I realize that I don't know crap. Im little more than a wannabe amature regarding Theology.

Unfortunately, the same seems true for everyone else here. Anyone here have a Masters or Doctorate in Theology or Divinity?

Makes me wonder why we bother at all......

Because it keeps our brains from turning to mush. :)

M.

[Jason]

"Cherubim my friends are g-ds. The scriptures testify of this truth but only for those that have eyes to see and ears to hear." (traveler)

Or a crack pipe at the ready, eh Traveler?

[Maureen]

Originally posted by Traveler@Jun 24 2004, 05:31 AM

Cherubim my friends are g-ds......

dictionary.com provides this information:

cherub

plural cherubim, the name of certain symbolical figures frequently mentioned in Scripture. They are first mentioned in connection with the expulsion of our first parents from Eden (Gen. 3:24). There is no intimation given of their shape or form. They are next mentioned when Moses was commanded to provide furniture for the tabernacle (Ex. 25:17-20; 26:1, 31). God promised to commune with Moses "from between the cherubim" (25:22). This expression was afterwards used to denote the Divine abode and presence (Num. 7:89; 1 Sam. 4:4; Isa. 37:16; Ps. 80:1; 99:1). In Ezekiel's vision (10:1-20) they appear as living creatures supporting the throne of God. From Ezekiel's description of them (1;10; 41:18, 19), they appear to have been compound figures, unlike any real object in nature; artificial images possessing the features and properties of several animals. Two cherubim were placed on the mercy-seat of the ark; two of colossal size overshadowed it in Solomon's temple. Ezekiel (1:4-14) speaks of four; and this number of "living creatures" is mentioned in Rev. 4:6. Those on the ark are called the "cherubim of glory" (Heb. 9:5), i.e., of the Shechinah, or cloud of glory, for on them the visible glory of God rested. They were placed one at each end of the mercy-seat, with wings stretched upward, and their faces "toward each other and toward the mercy-seat." They were anointed with holy oil, like the ark itself and the other sacred furniture. The cherubim were symbolical. They were intended to represent spiritual existences in immediate contact with Jehovah. Some have regarded them as symbolical of the chief ruling power by which God carries on his operations in providence (Ps. 18:10). Others interpret them as having reference to the redemption of men, and as symbolizing the great rulers or ministers of the church. Many other opinions have been held regarding them which need not be referred to here. On the whole, it seems to be most satisfactory to regard the interpretation of the symbol to be variable, as is the symbol itself. Their office was, (1) on the expulsion of our first parents from Eden, to prevent all access to the tree of life; and (2) to form the throne and chariot of Jehovah in his manifestation of himself on earth. He dwelleth between and sitteth on the cherubim (1 Sam. 4:4; Ps. 80:1; Ezek. 1:26, 28).

Source: Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary

M.

[Jason]

Cherubim - The cherubim or Kirubi (or Kherebu) which stood at the entrance of Assyrian temples and palaces were, according to Marues-Riviere, nothing less than gigantic pentacles placed there by the priests as "keepers of the threshold' - a function which in China was fulfilled by griffins and dragons. The Egyptian cherub was a figure with many wings, and covered with eyes; it was an emblem of the night sky, of religion and vigilance. (Cirlot, J.E., A Dictionary of Symbols, Philosophical Library, New York, 1962, p. 43)

"They are not, as some have wrongly supposed, the kind of spirits which men become when they die; they are a special and separate order of creatures, immortal from the moment of their creation, and having the double function of enjoying and praising the glory of God, on the one hand, and of ministering between God and the material universe, on the other. When the angels were created they were divided into nine orders, or choirs, the names of which - in descending rank - are as follows:

1. Cherubim

2. Seraphim

3. Thrones

4. Dominions

5. Authorities

6. Powers

7. Principalities

8. Archangels

9. Angels

The Cherubim and Seraphim are respectivly the spirits of divine knowledge and love. The Cherubim are represented as heads only, having two wings - a symbolism appropriate to beings preoccupied with the knowledge of God." (Watts, Alan W. Myth And Ritual In Christianity. Beacon, Boston, 1968. pp. 36-37.)

[Setheus]

Is that the list the corrupt priests from the middle ages (who had no priesthood) came up with?

Since you know so much, please tell me about the angel Zophiel,(Spy of God).

He seems like an interesting fellow.

Or any of the other angels that are named with nothing to back up the fact that the names are actually of real angels.

[Jason]

"Is that the list the corrupt priests from the middle ages (who had no priesthood) came up with?"

I don't believe it was the "corrupt" priests who were somehow devoid of priesthood, but rather the Kabbalists who came up with the list.

"Since you know so much, please tell me about the angel Zophiel,(Spy of God). He seems like an interesting fellow. Or any of the other angels that are named with nothing to back up the fact that the names are actually of real angels."

Actually, I don't know much about angels; much less specific ones.

I just know that Traveler's full of crap.

[Traveler]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Jun 24 2004, 04:49 PM

"Is that the list the corrupt priests from the middle ages (who had no priesthood) came up with?"

I don't believe it was the "corrupt" priests who were somehow devoid of priesthood, but rather the Kabbalists who came up with the list.

"Since you know so much, please tell me about the angel Zophiel,(Spy of God). He seems like an interesting fellow. Or any of the other angels that are named with nothing to back up the fact that the names are actually of real angels."

Actually, I don't know much about angels; much less specific ones.

I just know that Traveler's full of crap.

Is it crap that Paul first used the actual word Cherubim in the original text of scripture?

Is it crap that Paul spoke and wrote in Greek and knew that Cherubim in Greek and to the people who could read and understand Greek meant g-d?

Is it crap that Jesus is revealed in scripture as the “Only Keeper of the Way”? Is it crap that Jesus and only Jesus is revealed in scripture to posses all of the symbols of the Cherubim that keep the way to the Tree of Life?

If the Bible is crap then my friend Jason is correct to rely on other sources. If the Bible is incomplete and lacking in understanding doctrine he is justified in diverting focus on scripture by asking non-biblical questions like “please tell me about the angel Zophiel,(Spy of God).”

I want all to LDS posters to note carefully the exchange that has taken place on this thread - and when the claim is made by non-LDS that the Bible holds all truth - remember how quickly Biblical scriptures and their historical context were abandoned and non-scripture sources became authority.

Testimony of truth goes beyond words and includes deeds - Sometimes what a person does speaks so laude you cannot hear a word they say.

The Traveler

[Jason]

"Is it crap that Paul first used the actual word Cherubim in the original text of scripture?"

Since it's not true? Yes. Let me repost what was mentioned earlier about Cherubim:

They are FIRST mentioned in connection with the expulsion of our first parents from Eden (Gen. 3:24). There is no intimation given of their shape or form. They are next mentioned when Moses was commanded to provide furniture for the tabernacle (Ex. 25:17-20; 26:1, 31). God promised to commune with Moses "from between the cherubim" (25:22). This expression was afterwards used to denote the Divine abode and presence (Num. 7:89; 1 Sam. 4:4; Isa. 37:16; Ps. 80:1; 99:1). In Ezekiel's vision (10:1-20) they appear as living creatures supporting the throne of God. From Ezekiel's description of them (1;10; 41:18, 19), they appear to have been compound figures, unlike any real object in nature; artificial images possessing the features and properties of several animals. Two cherubim were placed on the mercy-seat of the ark; two of colossal size overshadowed it in Solomon's temple. Ezekiel (1:4-14) speaks of four; and this number of "living creatures" is mentioned in Rev. 4:6. Those on the ark are called the "cherubim of glory" (Heb. 9:5), i.e., of the Shechinah, or cloud of glory, for on them the visible glory of God rested. They were placed one at each end of the mercy-seat, with wings stretched upward, and their faces "toward each other and toward the mercy-seat." They were anointed with holy oil, like the ark itself and the other sacred furniture.

The cherubim were symbolical. They were intended to represent spiritual existences in immediate contact with Jehovah. Some have regarded them as symbolical of the chief ruling power by which God carries on his operations in providence (Ps. 18:10). Others interpret them as having reference to the redemption of men, and as symbolizing the great rulers or ministers of the church. Many other opinions have been held regarding them which need not be referred to here. On the whole, it seems to be most satisfactory to regard the interpretation of the symbol to be variable, as is the symbol itself.

Their office was, (1) on the expulsion of our first parents from Eden, to prevent all access to the tree of life; and (2) to form the throne and chariot of Jehovah in his manifestation of himself on earth. He dwelleth between and sitteth on the cherubim (1 Sam. 4:4; Ps. 80:1; Ezek. 1:26, 28).

"Is it crap that Paul spoke and wrote in Greek and knew that Cherubim in Greek and to the people who could read and understand Greek meant g-d?"

Prove it. Greeks may have believed that Cherubs were gods, but certainly nothing more.....

"Is it crap that Jesus is revealed in scripture as the “Only Keeper of the Way”?"

Let's discuss the verse and it's context, then we'll know.

"Is it crap that Jesus and only Jesus is revealed in scripture to posses all of the symbols of the Cherubim that keep the way to the Tree of Life?"

Again, references please.

"If the Bible is crap then my friend Jason is correct to rely on other sources."

Please don't put words in my mouth. I've never said that. I was providing additional scholarship on the matter, not non-biblical, just extra-biblical. Get it?

"If the Bible is incomplete and lacking in understanding doctrine he is justified in diverting focus on scripture by asking non-biblical questions like “please tell me about the angel Zophiel,(Spy of God).”"

Apparently you don't read very well. I understand if English is your second language. That was asked by Sethus, not me.

"I want all to LDS posters to note carefully the exchange that has taken place on this thread - and when the claim is made by non-LDS that the Bible holds all truth - remember how quickly Biblical scriptures and their historical context were abandoned and non-scripture sources became authority."

I NEVER said that Watts or Cirlot's texts were of greater or even equal authority to the Bible. They are just scholars giving their informed opinions. Like everyone else out there.

"Testimony of truth goes beyond words and includes deeds - Sometimes what a person does speaks so laude you cannot hear a word they say."

So you're still full of crap, and I hope you realize just how dumb you really are one day.

[Traveler]

Traveler: "Is it crap that Paul first used the actual word Cherubim in the original text of scripture?"

Jason: Since it's not true? Yes. Let me repost what was mentioned earlier about Cherubim:

They are FIRST mentioned in connection with the expulsion of our first parents from Eden (Gen. 3:24).

Me: Is it crap that the original text of the Old Testament is Hebrew and not Greek? You are wrong in your assumption about Cherubim: Your reference is not to any original text. Cherubim is not a Hebrew word. If you checked another of your post you would know that the origin of the Hebrew equivalent has been lost and there is not accurate modern translation. Cherubim is used as the translation from the Old Testament because of Paul’s use of that term in the New Testament. And you say original text of the sacred scripture is crap?

Traveler: "Is it crap that Jesus is revealed in scripture as the ““Only Keeper of the Way””?"

Jason: Let's discuss the verse and it's context, then we'll know.

Me: John 14:6 “....I am the WAY, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me”. In chapter 14 - Jesus is talking about his Father house and says he will prepare a place for those that believe. He is asked how believers will know the way. Verse 6 is his response. If you know of any other scripture that identifies a different keeper lets hear it. Or if you think there is a way other that by Jesus - I would be interested.

Traveler: "Is it crap that Jesus and only Jesus is revealed in scripture to posses all of the symbols of the Cherubim that keep the way to the Tree of Life?"

Jason: Again, references please.

Me: Revelation Chapter 19 - Again lets see your reference that better demonstrates the fulfillment of the symbolic prophesy of Genesis 3:24.

Traveler: "I want all to LDS posters to note carefully the exchange that has taken place on this thread - and when the claim is made by non-LDS that the Bible holds all truth - remember how quickly Biblical scriptures and their historical context were abandoned and non-scripture sources became authority."

Jason: I NEVER said that Watts or Cirlot's texts were of greater or even equal authority to the Bible. They are just scholars giving their informed opinions. Like everyone else out there.

Me: Exactly my point - why did you not think to use the scriptures - is it because you could not find one that said what you want? I do not remember you quoting a single scripture to indicate Cherubim are Angels. If you believe Cherubim are Angels you have to have gotten the belief from somewhere. If this important question is not answered in the scriptures then either you refuse to accept scripture or the scriptures are incomplete or some other reason - Perhaps you can tell me.

Jason: So you're still full of crap, and I hope you realize just how dumb you really are one day.

Me: I would rather be a dumb full of crap follower of Jesus and his truth - than a cleaver smooth talking Pharisee. Tell me, is your statement more likely to come from the lips of Jesus (or one of his disciples) or a Pharisee? - You do not have to answer that last question - but I wonder why you have such a hard time discussing interpretation of scripture with LDS yet you choose to come to a LDS website to discuss interpertation of scripture. If you disagree, would it not be better to provide me (and other LDS) with a better behavioral example and scripture understand of context and meaning?

The Traveler

[Guest JESOd]

I didn't feel like going through all 10 pages of stuff because yeah... it's rather long. But yeah... I believe in the Holy Trinity, and there is plenty of support in the Bible. :)

The Father is not the same person as the Son; the Son is not the same person as the Holy Spirit; and the Holy Spirit is not the same person as Father. They are not three gods and not three beings. They are three distinct persons; yet, they are all the one God. Each has a will, can speak, can love, etc., and these are demonstrations of personhood. They are in absolute perfect harmony consisting of one substance. They are coeternal, coequal, and copowerful. If any one of the three were removed, there would be no God. Jesus, the Son, is Divine and human all in one. The Holy Spirit is divine innature and is self-aware.

There are different functions among the members of the Godhead, for example,

the Father chooses who will be saved:

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love

Jesus the Son redeems them:

Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

then then Holy Spirit seals us:

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Jesus' two Natures:

Jesus is God in human flesh. He is not half God and half man. He is fully divine and fully man. That is, Jesus has two distinct natures: divine and human. Jesus is the Word who was God and was with God and was made flesh, (John 1:1,14). This means that in the single person of Jesus is both a human and divine nature. The divine nature was not changed. It was not altered. He is not merely a man who "had God within Him" nor is he a man who "manifested the God principle." He is God, second person of the Trinity. "The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word," (Heb. 1:3, NIV). Jesus' two natures are not "mixed together," nor are they combined into a new God-man nature. They are separate yet act as a unit in the one person of Jesus. This is called the Hypostatic Union.

The following chart should help you see the two natures of Jesus "in action":

GOD /MAN

He is worshiped (Matt. 2:2,11; 14:33). /He worshiped the Father (John 17).

He was called God (John 20:28; Heb. 1:8) /He was called man (Mark 15:39; John 19:5).

He was called Son of God (Mark 1:1) /He was called Son of Man (John 9:35-37)

He is prayed to (Acts 7:59). /He prayed to the Father (John 17).

He is sinless (1 Pet. 2:22; Heb. 4:15). /He was tempted (Matt. 4:1).

He knows all things (John 21:17). /He grew in wisdom (Luke 2:52).

He gives eternal life (John 10:28). /He died (Rom. 5:8).

All the fullness of deity dwells in Him (Col. 2:9)./He has a body of flesh and bones

(Luke 24:39).

The Communicatio Idiomatum

A doctrine that is related to the Hypostatic Union is the communicatio idiomatum (Latin for "communication of properties"). It is the teaching that the attributes of both the divine and human natures are ascribed to the one person of Jesus. This means that the man Jesus could lay claim to the glory He had with the Father before the world was made (John 17:5), claim that He descended from heaven, (John 3:13), and also claim omnipresence, (Matt. 28:20). All of these are divine qualities that are laid claim to by Jesus; therefore, the attributes of the divine properties were claimed by the person of Jesus.

The word "person" is used to describe the three members of the Godhead because the word "person" is appropriate. A person is self aware, can speak, love, hate, say "you," "yours," "me," "mine," etc. Each of the three persons in the Trinity demonstrate these qualities.

The Trinity is not an office held by three separate Gods. There is only ONE God.

Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8; 45:5,14,18,21,22; 46:9; 47:8:

Isaiah 43:10

"You are My witnesses," declares the LORD,

"And My servant whom I have chosen,

So that you may know and believe Me

And understand that I am He.

Before Me there was no God formed,

And there will be none after Me.

Isaiah 44:6,8

6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts:

'I am the first and I am the last,

And there is no God besides Me.

8 'Do not tremble and do not be afraid;

Have I not long since announced it to you and declared it?

And you are My witnesses.

Is there any God besides Me,

Or is there any other Rock?

I know of none.'"

Isaiah 45:5,14,18,21,22

5 "I am the LORD, and there is no other;

Besides Me there is no God.

I will gird you, though you have not known Me;

14 Thus says the LORD,

"The products of Egypt and the merchandise of Cush

And the Sabeans, men of stature,

Will come over to you and will be yours;

They will walk behind you, they will come over in chains

And will bow down to you;

They will make supplication to you:

'Surely, God is with you, and there is none else,

No other God.'"

18 For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (He is the God who formed the earth and made it, He established it and did not create it a waste place, but formed it to be inhabited),

"I am the LORD, and there is none else.

21 "Declare and set forth your case;

Indeed, let them consult together.

Who has announced this from of old?

Who has long since declared it?

Is it not I, the LORD?

And there is no other God besides Me,

A righteous God and a Savior;

There is none except Me.

22 "Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;

For I am God, and there is no other.

Isaiah 46:9

9 "Remember the former things long past,

For I am God, and there is no other;

I am God, and there is no one like Me,

John 17:3

3 "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

1 Cor. 8:5-6

5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords,

6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

Gal. 4:8-9

8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods.

9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again?

The Trinity

the action/FATHER /SON /HOLY SPIRIT

Called God / Phil. 1:2 / John 1:1,14; Col. 2:9 /Acts 5:3-4

Creator / Isaiah 64:8 /John 1:3; Col. 1:15-17 / Job 33:4, 26:13

Resurrects /1 Thess. 1:10 / John 2:19, 10:17 / Rom. 8:11

Indwells / 2 Cor. 6:16 / Col. 1:27 / John 14:17

Everywhere /1 Kings 8:27 / Matt. 28:20 /Psalm 139:7-10

All knowing /1 John 3:20 /John 16:30; 21:17 / 1 Cor. 2:10-11

Sanctifies / 1 Thess. 5:23 / Heb. 2:11 / 1 Pet. 1:2

Life giver /Gen. 2:7: John 5:21 /John 1:3; 5:21 / 2 Cor. 3:6,8

Fellowship /1 John 1:3 /1 Cor. 1:9 /2 Cor. 13:14; Phil. 2:1

Eternal /Psalm 90:2 /Micah 5:1-2 / Rom. 8:11; Heb. 9:14

A Will / Luke 22:42 /Luke 22:42 / 1 Cor. 12:11

Speaks / Matt. 3:17; Luke 9:25 /Luke 5:20; 7:48 / Acts 8:29; 11:12; 13:2

Love / John 3:16 / Eph. 5:25 / Rom. 15:30

Searches the heart / Jer. 17:10 /Rev. 2:23 / 1 Cor. 2:10

We belong to /John 17:9 / John 17:6 / . . .

Savior / 1 Tim. 1:1; 2:3; 4:10 / 2 Tim. 1:10; Titus 1:4; 3:6 / . . .

We serve /Matt. 4:10 /Col. 3:24 / . . .

Believe in /John 14:1 / John 14:1 / . . .

Gives joy /. . . /John 15:11 /John 14:7

Judges / John 8:50 / John 5:21,30 / . . .

sorry for the format.. it tried to space it but the thingy said no.

Therefore, the doctrine of the Trinity is arrived at by looking at the whole of scripture, not in a single verse. It is the doctrine that there is only one God, not three, and that the one God exists in three persons: Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. An analogy would be time. Time is past, present, and future. But, there are not three times, only one.

[Guest Jets]

Originally posted by Traveler@Jun 25 2004, 09:26 PM

I would rather be a dumb full of crap follower of Jesus and his truth - than a cleaver smooth talking Pharisee.

The Traveler

No comment, Mister Cleaver except, can Beaver come out and play?

[Traveler]

Originally posted by JESOd@Jun 27 2004, 08:33 AM

I didn't feel like going through all 10 pages of stuff because yeah... it's rather long. But yeah... I believe in the Holy Trinity, and there is plenty of support in the Bible. :)

I understand the problem in going through all ten pages. However, you are covering some things that have already been discussed.

For example: The ancient Hebrew word "ehad". Anywhere in the scriptures that we are told there is "one" G-d - ehad is used. "Ehad" has two meanings. First is a singular meaning. When used in this contet it is the counting meaning of one. It means that if we think that G-d is singular the scriptures would then mean that by what ever means we use to count G-d there can only be one. Our Jewish friends have attempted to inform Christians about this for 2000 years. If this singular meaning is understood from the Old Testament then the Christian concept of the G-dhead is false. It does not matter that you claim G-d is singular because acording to the counting one - one cannot be devided or separated into persons, functions, roles or anything else.

The second possible meaning of "ehad" is a plural meaning. It means united and means many coming together for a common purpose. It is used in other places of Biblical text to indicate that a man and a woman married before G-d become one. In this case there must be multiple, separate distinguisable and different itemes united in a common cause. I would point out what I believe is G-d is not a cause. If as Christians we say the G-dhead is "ehad" - meaning united then then we must accept the understanding of multiple G-ds united in their covenant cause.

One problem I have with Trinitarians is that they say their doctrine is scriptural, then to prove their notion they misuse the scriptures. Even Satan can quote scripture to prove his cause - but in so doing he misuses the scripture. So a Trinitarian says G-d is singular and uses the singular meaning of "ehad" saying - see the scriptures support our doctrine. Then they trun around and say the G-dhead is three - the Father, Son and Holy Ghost united in one purpose using the plural difination of ehad. What the Trinitarians fail to realize that serving a double meaning is like serving two masters. It is a lie - a vary good lie.

If a Christian looks at all scriptures they will realize there are multiple G-ds. One example I used concerns the scriptural use of Cherubim. I showed that the ancient meaning of Cherubim is g-d not angel as Trinitarians have tried to teach for 2000 years.

I also showed that Jesus - according to Christian teachings in the New Testament fulfills all the symbolic prophesies concerning the Cherubim that kept the way to the tree of life in the garden of G-d.

Now if you can show me in scripture that a Cherubim is not a g-d or if you can show me where an angel (not Jesus) is the one and only keeper of the way to the Father and has access to the symbolic flaiming sword in man effort to use the way to the Father then please correct me for implying that Jesus is the way. I claim Jesus is the Cherubim (G-d) that is the keeper of the way. Trinity doctrine does not understand the scriptures and denies that Jesus in really the way, the truth and the life.

The Traveler

[Setheus]

Traveler, you said that Cherubim always come in twos. I am very interested to know more about that. You said you didn't have time to write why this is so would you please refer me to where I can read about this on my own?

Grazie!

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Jets+Jun 27 2004, 09:17 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jets @ Jun 27 2004, 09:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Traveler@Jun 25 2004, 09:26 PM

I would rather be a dumb full of crap follower of Jesus and his truth - than a clever smooth talking Pharisee. 

The Traveler

No comment, Mister Cleaver except, can Beaver come out and play?

Me too Traveler...

[Jason]

"The" Traveler

Me: Is it crap that the original text of the Old Testament is Hebrew and not Greek?

That's not under argument.

"You are wrong in your assumption about Cherubim: Your reference is not to any original text. Cherubim is not a Hebrew word."

Cherubim is an Assyrian word. Assyrians are Semites. Hebrews are Semites. Any questions?

"If you checked another of your post you would know that the origin of the Hebrew equivalent has been lost and there is not accurate modern translation."

I doubt that. Furthermore, we have the Assyrian semitic word, so what makes you think that the (h)Ebrews didn't use the same spelling?

"Cherubim is used as the translation from the Old Testament because of Paul’s use of that term in the New Testament. And you say original text of the sacred scripture is crap?"

Oh really? And how do you know that, professor? As for the Bible, it is not crap. However, your comparison of the multi-headed, multi armed, multi winged Cherubs to the Son of God is crap. That's my point.

Traveler: "Is it crap that Jesus is revealed in scripture as the ““Only Keeper of the Way”?"

No. But you still haven't proven your point. Cherubs are not Jesus! Even your own Temple Ceremony teaches that!

Jason: Let's discuss the verse and it's context, then we'll know.

Me: John 14:6 “....I am the WAY, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me”. In chapter 14 - Jesus is talking about his Father house and says he will prepare a place for those that believe. He is asked how believers will know the way. Verse 6 is his response. If you know of any other scripture that identifies a different keeper lets hear it. Or if you think there is a way other that by Jesus - I would be interested.

Nope. No other way. What's your point?

Traveler: "Is it crap that Jesus and only Jesus is revealed in scripture to posses all of the symbols of the Cherubim that keep the way to the Tree of Life?"

Jason: Again, references please.

Me: Revelation Chapter 19 - Again lets see your reference that better demonstrates the fulfillment of the symbolic prophesy of Genesis 3:24.

(sigh) ok, here goes:

Genesis 3

23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Now, the "LORD God" is translated JEHOVAH. Mormons believe Jehovah is Jesus Christ. So for you, doctrinally speaking, you're trying to say that Jesus sent multiple entities of himself to guard the tree of life. Doesn't make sense, right? For Christians, Jehovah is God the Father. Yet even that doesn't make sense to send a couple of multi-winged Angels to guard the Tree, who would eventually fuze into one being known as the Word, who apparently changed his being and became God from the beginning, though started out was a Cherub(im).

As for fulfilling Revelation 19, I fail to see anything that resembles a "fulfillment". Did you mis-write the chapter reference?

Traveler: "I want all to LDS posters to note carefully the exchange that has taken place on this thread - and when the claim is made by non-LDS that the Bible holds all truth - remember how quickly Biblical scriptures and their historical context were abandoned and non-scripture sources became authority."

Jason: I NEVER said that Watts or Cirlot's texts were of greater or even equal authority to the Bible. They are just scholars giving their informed opinions. Like everyone else out there.

Me: Exactly my point - why did you not think to use the scriptures - is it because you could not find one that said what you want? I do not remember you quoting a single scripture to indicate Cherubim are Angels. If you believe Cherubim are Angels you have to have gotten the belief from somewhere. If this important question is not answered in the scriptures then either you refuse to accept scripture or the scriptures are incomplete or some other reason - Perhaps you can tell me.

The Bible is incomplete. So what? That's what the Church is for! That's why Christ commanded her to guard the Deposit of Faith, and that the Spirit would continue to guide her to a knowledge of all things.

Jason: So you're still full of crap, and I hope you realize just how dumb you really are one day.

"Me: I would rather be a dumb full of crap follower of Jesus and his truth - than a cleaver smooth talking Pharisee."

Unfortunately, Christ doesn't know you. You obviously don't know Jesus. Jesus is not a Cherub.

"Tell me, is your statement more likely to come from the lips of Jesus (or one of his disciples) or a Pharisee?"

Which one?

"- You do not have to answer that last question - but I wonder why you have such a hard time discussing interpretation of scripture with LDS yet you choose to come to a LDS website to discuss interpertation of scripture. If you disagree, would it not be better to provide me (and other LDS) with a better behavioral example and scripture understand of context and meaning?"

First of all, Im not a Theologian (and you obviously are not either!), and secondly, I take offense that you would try and act as though it's me against all the LDS on this board! I see few taking your side. Furthermore, your interpretations are weak, your methods sloppy, and you expect every Mormon on this board to take your side because you share the same Church?!

C'mon, just admit that you are wrong. When Im wrong, I admit it. I've been wrong about a lot of things in my life. (Especially religion)

[Snow]

Originally posted by JESOd@Jun 27 2004, 08:33 AM

I didn't feel like going through all 10 pages of stuff because yeah... it's rather long. But yeah... I believe in the Holy Trinity, and there is plenty of support in the Bible. :)

The Father is not the same person as the Son; the Son is not the same person as the Holy Spirit; and the Holy Spirit is not the same person as Father. They are not three gods and not three beings....

YEAH,

I liked it better when somebody else wrote it:

http://www.carm.org/doctrine/2natures.htm

If your are going to "borrow" you might want to do it from someone a little more credible that that low-life dishonest hatemonger Matt Slick.

[Guest JESOd]

darn... i thought i put it in the beginning. @_@ but yes. thank you. :)

actaully... it's this one: http://www.carm.org/doctrine/trinity.htm the one you listed is a link off of this one.

[Guest JESOd]

"For example: The ancient Hebrew word "ehad". Anywhere in the scriptures that we are told there is "one" G-d - ehad is used. "Ehad" has two meanings. First is a singular meaning. When used in this contet it is the counting meaning of one. It means that if we think that G-d is singular the scriptures would then mean that by what ever means we use to count G-d there can only be one. Our Jewish friends have attempted to inform Christians about this for 2000 years. If this singular meaning is understood from the Old Testament then the Christian concept of the G-dhead is false. It does not matter that you claim G-d is singular because acording to the counting one - one cannot be devided or separated into persons, functions, roles or anything else."

In Gen. 1:5, 2:24; Num. 13:23, however, ehad may also be used to designate a collective unit, a diversity within unity.

"Even Satan can quote scripture to prove his cause - but in so doing he misuses the scripture."

I am not misusing scripture.

"What the Trinitarians fail to realize that serving a double meaning is like serving two masters. It is a lie - a vary good lie."

I serve the One True God and Him alone. It is not a lie; it is the good truth.

"If a Christian looks at all scriptures they will realize there are multiple G-ds. One example I used concerns the scriptural use of Cherubim. I showed that the ancient meaning of Cherubim is g-d not angel as Trinitarians have tried to teach for 2000 years."

Did you not just say there is God is singular... ONE. not multiple.

Cherubim is a word borrowed from the Assyrian kirubu, from karâbu, "to be near", hence it means near ones, familiars, personal servants, bodyguards, courtiers. It was commonly used of those heavenly spirits, who closely surrounded the Majesty of God and paid Him intimate service. Hence it came to mean as much as "Angelic Spirit" not God. ... how did you derive that to God?