What if - Adam & Eve [Changing the Outcome]

[Hemidakota]

What if Adam & Eve, never ate of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil? We do know that GOD placed this tree in the center of the garden for a wise purpose; perhaps, to tempt our first mortal parents.

Overtime, the Godhead, along those ministering spirits provides instruction both of them. What will be the outcome?

Ponder the question carefully before replying.

[Guest black*rain]

If Adam and Eve never ate from the tree of knowledge & good and evil, then they would still be in the garden and there would be no progress. Everything would still be in its first state. We wouldn't be born yet, and God's plan would just be on hold, I guess.

[skalenfehl]

If Adam and Eve never ate from the tree of knowledge & good and evil, then they would still be in the garden and there would be no progress. Everything would still be in its first state. We wouldn't be born yet, and God's plan would just be on hold, I guess.

Agreed. This is also why God allowed Satan that serpent to dwell on Earth, to tempt man and to give him the opportunity to begin to make choices. Agency is an eternal principle. Without the opportunity to choose, there can never be progress for we would never be able to make mistakes and learn from them.

[checkerboy]

K so this is basically gospel according to Checkerboy but I like it so I am gonna spout it here. We don't know how long Adam and Eve lived in the garden before they ate from the forbidden tree. Seeing how scientists date the earth to be way older then time recorded in the bible maybe Adam and Eve lived for millions of years in the garden before they were finally tempted and ate of the tree.

But regardless like has been said we wouldn't be here and they would still be living innocently in the garden.

[Hemidakota]

Remember, I added the word 'Instruction' in the second question.

[SmilingRedhead]

Remember, I added the word 'Instruction' in the second question.

Huh?? I don't get what you mean by that.

Do you mean that had Adam and Eve remained in the Garden of Eden and not been tempted to eat of the fruit, then over time they would gain enough instruction from the Godhead and the ministering spirits to know the will of God and what was needed to fulfill the plan of salvation for us all... so they'd 'lose their innocence' and have lots of babies and we'd all end up being born anyway?

It would've been awfully crowded in The Garden of Eden by now then!!

[checkerboy]

Yeah that could never happen because they wouldn't have been able to have kids. IMO their immortal bodies weren't capable of bearing children. Not until their physiology was changed could they have kids. At least that is what I think.

[Guest tomk]

What if Adam & Eve, never ate of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil? We do know that GOD placed this tree in the center of the garden for a wise purpose; perhaps, to tempt our first mortal parents.

Overtime, the Godhead, along those ministering spirits provides instruction both of them. What will be the outcome?

Ponder the question carefully before replying.

All I know is what I have been taught on this subject. That we cannot act unless we are equally enticed by both sides. With increased righteousness comes increased opposition until we reach exaltation or choose perdition. With increased wickedness comes increased remorse of conscience, until either we repent or are destroyed.

Adam and Eve would have choosen to eat of the fruit at some point. They would have chosen to do so as a conscious, deliberate decision. Their education at the hands of God would have made the choice obvious.

God was REQUIRED to forbid it. Why? Because He cannot vary to the left or the right in that which He has said. He could not condone THE ACT of leaving His presence. He could not say it was OKAY. By the same token, everything in the Plan hinged upon their partaking and leaving the garden.

I get it, in my head and heart, I get it --- but I can't put words to it. It HAD to happen, God could not condone it, and Adam and Eve had to CHOOSE it of their own free will.

A Savior was provided, who reverses the effects of the Fall through His Atonement. So we need not "worry about" what Adam and Eve did, just be aware of our Fallen state, and take responsibility for our power of choice and the consequences. Learn to rely upon the Lord for strength, because Satan is too cunning to battle alone.

My thoughts!

[Hemidakota]

TIDBIT: GOD cannot issue a contrary commandment. HE is not a creator of confusion. That is Satan tactic. Giving the fact, like a child, it can receive instruction, as mortal parents, it is our nature to rear our offspring with such.

What did the fruit provide Eve? Why instantly? Or was it?

[VisionOfLehi]

I'm interested in learning more about the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

What exactly did it do? Was it an actual tree, or does it represent something else, or both? How does eating fruit impart knowledge upon someone? Does anything like this take place anywhere else in the Scriptures?

Can the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil be compared at all with the Tree of Life (as referenced in my moniker.) That was purely symbolic, representing the Love of Christ.

Yet, if I've read scripture correctly, Adam and Eve did actually partake of the fruit. So was the fruit itself somehow BLESSED to impart knowledge, or was the mere act of transgressing the LORD'S commandment enough somehow open their eyes?

At what point did the Fall of Man initiate the Fall of the World?

[DigitalShadow]

I have a question about the whole situation.

Did God put the tree there knowing they would eventually take a bite, then acted shocked and upset when they did eventually eat from the tree knowing it is exactly how he planned all along? or did God put the tree there to tempt them to see if they would bite, then thought of a new plan on the spot when they eventually did?

[Hemidakota]

DS has a valide point.

Also to add to line of quesitons, GOD would not give a law without both of them in for filling it. Their bodies were indeed immortal but capable of having children.

[checkerboy]

Their bodies were indeed immortal but capable of having children.

And you know this how?

[Hemidakota]

Our first parents were 'amortal.' Another reference is Moses 4:22; nothing was added to their [from amortal to mortal corporeal form] physical being, just multiply the sorrow [pain]. If not, look between your legs. lol

There are two missing items to produce a child.

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

What if Adam & Eve, never ate of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil? We do know that GOD placed this tree in the center of the garden for a wise purpose; perhaps, to tempt our first mortal parents.

Overtime, the Godhead, along those ministering spirits provides instruction both of them. What will be the outcome?

Ponder the question carefully before replying.

TIDBIT: GOD cannot issue a contrary commandment. HE is not a creator of confusion. That is Satan tactic. Giving the fact, like a child, it can receive instruction, as mortal parents, it is our nature to rear our offspring with such.

What did the fruit provide Eve? Why instantly? Or was it?

First off: 2 Nephi 2

Adam and Eve would not have had any children, so says scripture. Whether or not their bodies were capable of having children is open to speculation.

You do propose an interesting thought, though. Was the gift of "knowledge of good and evil" some magical effect of eating a specially blessed fruit? Or is knowledge of good and evil a natural result of disobedience to commandments in an otherwise innocent state? Possibly, did Adam and Eve already have the Light of Christ, but without the contrast of transgression it was ineffective? Kind of like the idea that you wouldn't know how wonderful the joys of life could be if you didn't have the sorrows in life. I'm not sure I explained it very well, but as I'm thinking of it it's an interesting idea and I'd like to explore that further...

:edit:

To answer the original question...

Regardless of whatever instruction Adam and Eve received in the garden, it was completely ineffectual until they had EXPERIENCE with which they could apply that instruction. There are numerous scriptures pointing out the importance of experience in this life. It seems to me that while "the spirit knoweth all things" ( Alma 7 ) that knowledge is useless without experience (or in other words Wisdom) to guide it. If Adam and Eve had gotten all the instruction God could give, it wouldn't be useful to them without experience. That, perhaps, is part of the downfall of Satan, that he "knew all things" but didn't have the experience with which to know that what he wanted and what he was doing was simply absurd.

[Hemidakota]

Read that quote again [2 Nephi Chapter 2]. Was that a 'cause-n-effect' of Adam's decision based on Eve's action? Yes, he was commanded to have children [multiply]. Now Eve did transgressed and Adam, being steadfast, had to make that choice. I contend - Nephi saw what would of happened if Adam stayed without Eve.

There is no speculation to whether or not Adam & Eve are capable of having children...is just when.

[Elgama]

Has anyone else read CS Lewis Perelandra - its a world where the fall never happened - Ransom came from Earth to teach Perelandra so she could move forward but not have to disobey Gods commands?

-Charley

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

Read that quote again [2 Nephi Chapter 2]. Was that a 'cause-n-effect' of Adam's decision based on Eve's action? Yes, he was commanded to have children [multiply]. Now Eve did transgressed and Adam, being steadfast, had to make that choice. I contend - Nephi saw what would of happened if Adam stayed without Eve.

There is no speculation to whether or not Adam & Eve are capable of having children...is just when.

That's an interesting interpretation, and very "literal" in terms of taking the words exactly as they are written. However the general interpretation of that verse would say that "Adam" means "Adam and Eve". This is how modern prophets have explained it, and that's the way I read it. If I can dig up a copy of the seminary or Institute manual for the BOM it'd be interesting to see what it says about this.

[VisionOfLehi]

DS has a valide point.

How? God is omniscient. Of course He knew they'd bite beforehand.

He didn't sound shocked, to me, He sounded like He wanted Adam and Eve to fess up and be honest.

---

And how do you give birth when your body can not change, and how when your body has no blood?

2 Nephi 2

22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end. 23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

I often see people just quote verse 23 and suppose they couldn't have children because they were innocent and "didn't know how,", whilst ignoring the verse immediately before it. Being pregnant is certainly a different state! Something has to GROW in you.

Continuing:

http://institute.lds.org/content/manuals/inst-327-student-pogp.pdf

In the physical creation, man became a “living soul” (see

Moses 2:26–27; see also D&C 88:15). This means his spirit

body gained a physical body of flesh and bones. President

Joseph Fielding Smith explained that the bodies of Adam

and Eve were at first “quickened [made alive] by spirit and

not by blood. . . . After the fall, which came by a

transgression of the law under which Adam was living, the

forbidden fruit had the power to create blood and change

his nature and mortality took the place of immortality,

and all things, partaking of the change, became mortal”

(Doctrines of Salvation, 1:77). Thus, in the Fall, Adam and

Eve became the first beings upon the earth who were

mortal flesh, or subject to death.

Emphasis added on all quotes.

[Guest tomk]

TIDBIT: GOD cannot issue a contrary commandment. HE is not a creator of confusion. That is Satan tactic. Giving the fact, like a child, it can receive instruction, as mortal parents, it is our nature to rear our offspring with such.

What did the fruit provide Eve? Why instantly? Or was it?

9 And in that day the Holy Ghost fell upon Adam, which beareth record of the Father and the Son, saying: I am the Only Begotten of the Father from the beginning, henceforth and forever, that as thou hast fallen thou mayest be redeemed, and all mankind, even as many as will.

10 And in that day Adam blessed God and was filled, and began to prophesy concerning all the families of the earth, saying: Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God.

1) Eyes were opened;

2) Thus, joy was possible in this life.

3) Atonement brings us back into the Father's presence.

11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.

4) Could not have had seed. Children.

(an aside: The forbidden fruit caused her ovaries to FORM and fill with eggs?)

5) Knew good and evil

6) Joy of her (their) redemption.

7) Joy of eternal life which God gives to the obedient.

12 And Adam and Eve blessed the name of God, and they made all things known unto their sons and their daughters.

8) Desire to share this knowledge with others.

[Hemidakota]

general interpretation of that verse would say that "Adam" means "Adam and Eve". This is how modern prophets have explained it, and that's the way I read it. If I can dig up a copy of the seminary or Institute manual for the BOM it'd be interesting to see what it says about this.

Noting prior duality term; "Adam & Eve' [ver 19] and 'they, our', then we have a single term; 'Eve' [ver 18]. The term 'Adam' denotes Michael himself.

[Guest tomk]

I have a question about the whole situation.

Did God put the tree there knowing they would eventually take a bite, then acted shocked and upset when they did eventually eat from the tree knowing it is exactly how he planned all along? or did God put the tree there to tempt them to see if they would bite, then thought of a new plan on the spot when they eventually did?

It was all planned-out before the earth was created. That is the wonder of it. God knew what would happen, but that pre-knowing was not a causitive factor in the actions Adam and Even eventually took. They still did it of their own free will. The COULD have stayed, but chose not to.

[Guest tomk]

I think it is all about CHOICE.

I didn't HAVE to be a choice between TWO TREES. Right?

It could have been a choice between two other things, right?

The point was not WHAT they ate, but what the eating of it represented as far as making a choice. It had to be something actionable that they could DO in order to demonstrate a clear knowing choice.

It says Satan beguiled Eve. He tricked her. He seduced her. We ourselves fall prey to the same DAILY. So I certainly don't blame her.

[Hemidakota]

How? God is omniscient. Of course He knew they'd bite beforehand.

He didn't sound shocked, to me, He sounded like He wanted Adam and Eve to fess up and be honest.

---

And how do you give birth when your body can not change, and how when your body has no blood?

2 Nephi 2

I often see people just quote verse 23 and suppose they couldn't have children because they were innocent and "didn't know how,", whilst ignoring the verse immediately before it. Being pregnant is certainly a different state! Something has to GROW in you.

Continuing:

http://institute.lds.org/content/manuals/inst-327-student-pogp.pdf

Emphasis added on all quotes.

What flows through GOD's veins? What is amortal being?

verse 22 - go back to my other response 'Cause - n - effect'.

There is direction and madness to this topic.

[Moksha]

Allegorical answer to an allegorical question? Sounds fun.

Adam and Eve would have went on to found Yeshiva University, and would have given themselves grants to establish the first human cloning experiments outside of Divine providence. They would have established a race of people through this cloning in which all the men looked like Joseph Smith and all the ladies like Jessica Alba.

They also would have instigated Universal Health Care and would have avoided triggering global warming.