Alcohol and the Words of Wisdom

[kona0197]

I'd hope the moderators can see past your transgression.

Doubtful. A few of them really have it in for me. Even though I'm trying hard to follow the rules and post my opinions without harming others.

[Canuck Mormon]

I have plenty of respect for the Church. If it was not so I would not attend Sacrament when I can. I just have a few issues with Church history and teachings. I apologize if I hurt anyone in my useless ramblings. It seems I can no longer post at this site as a few moderators will always have some kind of issue with me.

It's not you we have a issue with, it's your constant whining and complaining how the church will not conform to your beliefs. At one point you called the church "Racist". How is that respectful? We give you websites as reference and you dismiss them as someone is lying. Respectful? If you do not want to post here anymore, that is your choice. If you decide to stay, that's great. Either way is fine.

[kona0197]

I said the withholding of the priesthood was due to racist reasons. I never said the Church on the whole was racist. No need to put words in my mouth.

[sjdean]

I believe the WoW is man made - at this point. That can change.

The funny thing is that I do not smoke and I really do not drink. I drink maybe a pint a night IF I can afford it.. This started recently and I can stop anytime. So looking back the only thing I have been doing wrong is drinking coffee and tea. I can quit those at a drop of a hat.

It's the point of changing my habits to suit the Church that bothers me.

Going to have to start amalgamating these posts soon.

Yes, that's a tricky one if you believe its man made. I suppose its a difficult one, in that if the LDS ask God, they'll get a confirmation. I'll ask God absolutely determined screaming out please answer me, and I get a confirmation that an occasional beer is OK.

What do you get when you ask God?

Sounds like you could be in a similar situation to me, in that if God confirmed the Word of Wisdom to you, you'd follow without question. But when you believe the Word of Wisdom is of man, or you get a different response from God then why should you be prevented from doing something you enjoy?

I wish I had the answer for you.

[kona0197]

You make a great point. :)

[Canuck Mormon]

I said the withholding of the priesthood was due to racist reasons. I never said the Church on the whole was racist. No need to put words in my mouth.

Here's the quote.

kona0197

It had nothing to do with the Lord withholding the Priesthood from certain races. It had to do with leaders in the Church who were racist. You notice the ban for blacks was lifted after the world said it was not politically correct to have a Church thinking like that?

By the way do you all notice that the Church teaches that dark skin is a curse? That's very racist as well.

Seems like your calling the church racist me.

[sjdean]

You make a great point. :)

Who me?

Which point? I forget. I make so many. Often all the same. I often make the same point several times. Several times I'll make the same point. And I'll make the same point over several posts. The next post you read I'll make the same point. Because that's what I do.

I just hope some of it is helpful, because you sounds like you're in a great position. :)

[Maureen]

IMO, the first thing that Mr. Monson should do is update the WofW. There are many health benefits in consuming coffee, tea and alcohol in moderation. If this ever did change, I'm sure it would confuse some but be quite welcoming to others.

M.

[sjdean]

IMO, the first thing that Mr. Monson should do is update the WofW. There are many health benefits in consuming coffee, tea and alcohol in moderation. If this ever did change, I'm sure it would confuse some but be quite welcoming to others.

M.

Ahh, but that's the thing. It should not be down to the new leader, it should be down to God.

I need to post this, well, I don't, but... Im not happy with posting this since it probably sounds inflammatory, so apologies in advance but...

Sometimes I think about whether I was at the head of the church and decided, without talking to God, that responsible drinking is OK and we should be free to enjoy a beer with our friends in moderation.

Or maybe if I came out with some "revelation" and changed something slightly so that no one complained, I don't know, I could insist tithing meant 10% of gross. Would anyone complain? No prophet will lead the Church astray right?

It would be an interesting thing to test.

Actually, yes, I am glad I have posted that. That's one of the things I struggle with. How do I know that that really is a prophet? How do I know you guys aren't just blindly following with some warm thoughts in your hearts? If I joined, Im either, blindly following and conning myself or it really is the greatest religion on earth.

[Vanhin]

sjdean,

I really appreciated your comments. It shows great faith, in my opinion, to say that you would give up something you enjoy upon becoming a member of the Lord's Church.

I have many non-LDS friends who drink alcoholic beverages, smoke tobacco, or drink tea and coffee. They are all good people, and I enjoy my friendship with them. I don't participate with them, of course, but I would never point my finger of judgement at them (except in jest sometimes). None of them would ever condone the abuse of these substences, but I know there are people who do (like some of my old friends). As you pointed out, the Word of Wisdom is for the benefit of the Saints:

A Word OF Wisdom, for the benefit of the council of high priests, assembled in Kirtland, and the church, and also the saints in Zion— (D&C 89:1)

At the same time, anyone who abides by the principles of the Word of Wisdom, will be blessed, member or not.

20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—

21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated. (D&C 130:20-21)

The blessings promised to those who keep the Word of Wisdom, are also listed in D&C 89:

18 And all saints who remember to keep and do these sayings, walking in obedience to the commandments, shall receive health in their navel and marrow to their bones;

19 And shall find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures;

20 And shall run and not be weary, and shall walk and not faint.

21 And I, the Lord, give unto them a promise, that the destroying angel shall pass by them, as the children of Israel, and not slay them. Amen. (D&C 89:18-21)

The word of wisdom was "Given for a principle with promise, adapted to the capacity of the weak and the weakest of all saints, who are or can be called saints. ". To me there are many other things which are not good for man, that are not specifically defined by either the scripture or the current interpretation (no coffee, tea, tobacco, alcohol, or harmful drugs), but that is why it is "adapted to the capacity of the weak and the weakest of all saints". Just following the letter of the Word of Wisdom will merit all the blessings promised.

I know for a fact that living the Word of Wisdom brings the promised blessings. I am so glad that God warned us way ahead of time of the "evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days". Even though I have had my stuggles with this, I have been able to see the deception for what it's worth. The Latter-day Saints don't need these things. Life can be challenging enough on it's own with out the troubles and addictions associated with breaking this law. We have a work to do, and it's really a small price to pay in the end. :)

Regards,

Vanhin

[sjdean]

I love the original WoW.

It is so inspiring, so simple and easy to understand, thought provoking and detailed.

That line is quite amazing:

"evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days"

Thanks for your post.

Quick update...

That line speaks volumes to me. It says that the evils are within the hearts, not within the substances.

As for giving up, I'd also have to give up tea and coffee as well. But I did it once before and felt all the more refreshed for it. I'd miss it, but I think I'd be good. I'd also still make sure I go out and socialise. Even if that meant going to a pub. The way I see it, I can go to a bar and get a bottle of water.

[Vanhin]

Quick update...

That line speaks volumes to me. It says that the evils are within the hearts, not within the substances.

Exactly, it says, "In consequence of evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days".

Regards,

Vanhin

[kona0197]

Canuck - Did my words say outright that I called the whole Church racist? NO they did not. I said certain leaders of the Church might of had racist motives.

Now I'll have to ask you to quit putting words on my mouth. Thanks.

[kona0197]

I just hope some of it is helpful, because you sounds like you're in a great position.

I am in a great position. The thing is others always see things from their point of view instead of understanding where I am coming from.

The blessings promised to those who keep the Word of Wisdom, are also listed in D&C 89:

Explain to me why all my really bad health problems started after I quit smoking then?

[Vanhin]

I am in a great position. The thing is others always see things from their point of view instead of understanding where I am coming from.

Explain to me why all my really bad health problems started after I quit smoking then?

I'm sure your health problems would be a lot worse if you hadn't quit. Count your blessings brother. Smoking is not good for you...

Vanhin

[kona0197]

No you don't understand. These health problems are a result of quitting smoking.

[Vanhin]

No you don't understand. These health problems are a result of quitting smoking.

Then by all means light it up. I'm sure you will be fit as a fiddle soon then.

Vanhin

[kona0197]

I can't. My better half would kill me.

[Vanhin]

I can't. My better half would kill me.

Like I said, count your blessings...

[Maureen]

No you don't understand. These health problems are a result of quitting smoking.

You should probably ask your doctor if the health problems are a result of your quitting or just a coincidence. Your body is adjusting to the change. If you're coughing, it's probably a result of your lungs being able to expectorate because it's starting to heal. I'd still check with your doctor.

M.

[kona0197]

As I understand it I've always had sleep apnea. Quitting smoking had nothing to do with it. I just never noticed it before.

[sjdean]

I'm sure your health problems would be a lot worse if you hadn't quit. Count your blessings brother. Smoking is not good for you...

You'll forgive me if I wince at that. I don't know if Kona has said what his health problems are, so it shouldn't be anybodies business to second guess what they are now and if they would have been worse had he continued smoking.

I am in a great position. The thing is others always see things from their point of view instead of understanding where I am coming from.

You will get that. Always on internet forums. A lot of people are very closed minded. You can even agree with what someone is saying and repeat it verbatim and they will still say you don't understand.

But remember it's just an internet forum. You can't make them understand. But you can try to maybe re-phrase what you're saying instead of getting angry.

As I understand it I've always had sleep apnea. Quitting smoking had nothing to do with it. I just never noticed it before.

I'll admit I don't know anything about sleep apnea... but reading the way you've wrote it above, sounds like smoking masked your sleep apnea? IIRC sleep apnea is a very dangerous thing. Now you're aware of it you can get something done.

I'd say that's a huge benefit.

So question for everyone else. Even though Im not sure if I believe, I've never attended a meeting, if I were to quit the tea and coffee and give up alcohol, would I see benefits that would make me more assured?

[Vanhin]

You'll forgive me if I wince at that. I don't know if Kona has said what his health problems are, so it shouldn't be anybodies business to second guess what they are now and if they would have been worse had he continued smoking.

No problem sjdeam. I don't think one has to be a doctor, in this day and age, to claim with certainty that smoking is bad for you. And then we find out later that "quitting smoking" really had nothing to do with his problem... He was just doing the kona thing. Which is fine. I like the guy.

I myself have sleep apnea. Though I was only diagnosed with it some 5 years ago, I have had it my whole life based on the accounts of those who have heard me sleep and the way I felt when I was younger. In short, what happens, is that you stop breathing at night while you sleep. This causes your brain to basically "wake" you up (unless you die, which can happen). Depending on the severity, this happens several times during the night. So, not only is your oxygen supply being cut off, you are not getting the deep restful sleep that you need.

You then spend your waking hours worn out and tired. I would often fall asleep while sitting in my car or in a meeting. I never felt like playing sports or being active, because I was so tired. When I used to smoke, it was worse, because not only was I cutting off oxygen to my brain during the night, I was doing it during the day as well. So smoking is in effect wake apnea by choice! No, I'm certain that smoking was making it worse.

So question for everyone else. Even though Im not sure if I believe, I've never attended a meeting, if I were to quit the tea and coffee and give up alcohol, would I see benefits that would make me more assured?

You would. Some of the health benefits, for example, are common sense now that science has proven many of the things we only had through revelation when the WoW was given. You will have to struggle through the withdrawal symptoms, if you are addicted, but you will find that your body will eventually feel better, and your mind will be more capable. And don't forget the money you will save if you are smoker, for instance.

You will also receive spiritual benefits. From scripture we read that, "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. (John 7:17). If you are sincerely seeking to know, and you ask God the Father in the name of Christ, and then even do his will, you are placing yourself in a good position to receive a witness of the Spirit. In fact, the scriptures teach that this is the process for gaining this witness:

And now, I, Moroni, would speak somewhat concerning these things; I would show unto the world that faith is things which are hoped for and not seen; wherefore, dispute not because ye see not, for ye receive no witness until after the trial of your faith. (Ether 12:6)

I pray that you try it good friend.

Sincerely,

Vanhin

[sjdean]

No problem sjdeam. I don't think one has to be a doctor, in this day and age, to claim with certainty that smoking is bad for you. And then we find out later that "quitting smoking" really had nothing to do with his problem... He was just doing the kona thing. Which is fine. I like the guy.

He strikes me as a really good guy, struggling, unsure, but wanting to go forward and I wish him the very best of luck.

It is so easy to say the wrong thing and get blasted for it, especially when in your own mind you're thinking something slightly different. For example, I was going to say I hate people who assume. Whereas actually, that's not true. I hate it WHEN people assume. There's a whole world of difference just in the space of two words.

I also like to take nothing for granted. I agree smoking is very bad for your health full stop. But in this topsy turvy world, who am I to say that for someone out there it doesn't actually provide a benefit?

I wonder if our kids are still being taught in school that we shouldn't assume, we shouldn't take things for granted, we should ask.

I myself have sleep apnea. Though I was only diagnosed with it some 5 years ago, I have had it my whole life based on the accounts of those who have heard me sleep and the way I felt when I was younger. In short, what happens, is that you stop breathing at night while you sleep. This causes your brain to basically "wake" you up (unless you die, which can happen).

That's what I was thinking.

But this is where a second opinion comes in handy because it offers perspective. Instead of shouting the same old rhetoric that smoking is bad and he did the right thing for giving up regardless of the consequences, you ask well, what's the problem now?

Ask a question, get more information, and it increases the chances of being able to help someone instead of getting their back up as an interfering busy body who's not really trying to understand what someone is going through, just interested in telling someone how to live their own life.

My perspective, is that it sounds like his smoking masked the sleep apnea. If you can die, what a miracle he's given up smoking because now he knows that there's a problem and can get it resolved!

Depending on the severity, this happens several times during the night. So, not only is your oxygen supply being cut off, you are not getting the deep restful sleep that you need.

I have a side fascination with this. I suffer from hypothyroidism. Despite being fully treated, I am absoltely tired. I can be buzzing at work, but my eyes ache, my skin itches and I just lack all the motivation in the world. Sometimes I think part of the buzz is just adrenaline more than anything else. But Im overweight and have heard that can be a factor in sleep apnea.

Sounds like quite an affliction. They use cpap machines is it to help with breathing?

You then spend your waking hours worn out and tired. I would often fall asleep while sitting in my car or in a meeting. I never felt like playing sports or being active, because I was so tired. When I used to smoke, it was worse, because not only was I cutting off oxygen to my brain during the night, I was doing it during the day as well. So smoking is in effect wake apnea by choice! No, I'm certain that smoking was making it worse.

Thankfully I've never been that tired. I just wish I could get back that buzz from when I was younger. Sleeping on five hours, leaping out of bed, head buzzing and not taking any illegal stimuli.

How long did it take you to get diagnosed? If you went to a GP like in our country, they'd probably just try and palm you off with some nasal spray.

You would. Some of the health benefits, for example, are common sense now that science has proven many of the things we only had through revelation when the WoW was given. You will have to struggle through the withdrawal symptoms, if you are addicted, but you will find that your body will eventually feel better, and your mind will be more capable. And don't forget the money you will save if you are smoker, for instance.

Well I don't smoke. I hardly drink save socially. Although I am on the apple juice tonight. Beautifully hot night in april over in the UK and I just fancied a nice cooling pint of, erm, apple juice.

I don't believe that I do things out of addiction. It's because I enjoy them rather than having to have them, or because of habit.

I did try a six month stint back when I first found out about Mormonism, and I was taking in fruit teas and soft drinks to replace tea and coffee.

You will also receive spiritual benefits. From scripture we read that, "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. (John 7:17). If you are sincerely seeking to know, and you ask God the Father in the name of Christ, and then even do his will, you are placing yourself in a good position to receive a witness of the Spirit. In fact, the scriptures teach that this is the process for gaining this witness:

And now, I, Moroni, would speak somewhat concerning these things; I would show unto the world that faith is things which are hoped for and not seen; wherefore, dispute not because ye see not, for ye receive no witness until after the trial of your faith. (Ether 12:6)

I pray that you try it good friend.

Sincerely,

Vanhin

Thank you again for your kind and thoughtful post.

I hope you appreciate that it's quite difficult for someone on the outside of the LDS faith wherein it would seem quite possible that if the book was fabricated (and Im not saying it is) to create the laws and back it up with "scripture". It is also a difficult concept for me to follow the idea of having to live the principles of the LDS faith for (who knows how long) to know whether those principles are true.

I'll be honest in that it is something I struggle with.

Although I guess it's no different to trying on a pair of shoes to see if they fit. I realise that's a hideously simplified analogy but the best I could come up with.

Cheers

Simon

[kona0197]

CPAP machines suck. Nothing worse than trying to sleep when you feel like you are drowning...