What if someone removed your children because your bishop was arrested?

[Fiannan]

Sect Mothers Appeal to Texas Governor

By JENNIFER DOBNER – 9 hours ago

SAN ANGELO, Texas (AP) — The mothers of children removed from a polygamous sect's ranch in West Texas after an abuse allegation are appealing to Gov. Rick Perry for help, saying some of their children have become sick and even required hospitalization.

In the letter, a copy of which was obtained by The Associated Press, the mothers from the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints also say children are "horrified" by physical examinations they have undergone while in state custody.

The mothers said the letter was mailed Saturday. Perry spokesman Robert Black said Sunday that he had not seen the letter and couldn't comment.

Some 416 children were rounded up and placed in temporary custody 11 days ago after a domestic violence hot line recorded a complaint from a 16-year-old girl. She said she was physically and sexually abused by her 50-year-old husband.

The one-page letter, signed by three women who claim they represent others, says about 15 mothers were away from the property when their children were removed.

"We were contacted and told our homes had been raided, our children taken away with no explanation, and because of law enforcement blockade preventing entering or leaving the ranch, we were unable to get to our homes and had no-where to go," it said. "As of Wednesday, April 9, 2008, we have been permitted to return to our empty, ransacked homes, heartsick and lonely."

The Associated Press: Sect Mothers Appeal to Texas Governor

Hard cases make for bad laws. Unless the social service agencies and the government is squashed by good lawyers in court this sort of thing could be used to attack many other religious groups. I have also read that the ultimate goal of this is to deprogram the kids. Now since these children have been raised to see Joseph Smith as a prophet of God, and this is after all Texas, then what do you suppose will be the first thing that these deprogramers will be wanting to erase from the minds of these kids?

[prisonchaplain]

It's my understanding that religious deprogramming has long been debunked as illegitimate. I'm highly skeptical of reports that the government will be enlisting such methods. Reading between the lines here, me guesses that the OP may be reading too much between the lines.

On the other hand, I am somewhat concerned about parental rights here, sans actual proof of abuse, once the initial investigation is done.

[Fiannan]

SAN ANGELO, Texas (AP) — All their lives, the girls in the polygamist sect in the West Texas desert were told that the outside world was hostile and immoral, and that venturing beyond the brilliant white limestone walls of their compound would consign them to eternal damnation.

Now, if the state gets its way, hundreds of the girls could be put in foster homes, in what could be a wrenching cultural adjustment that may require intensive counseling.

"What they are up against is having to deprogram an entire community," said Margaret Cooke, who left the sect with seven of her eight children near the end of 1994. The children "are so naive and they have been sheltered to the point that they don't even trust their own judgment."

Marleigh Meisner, a spokeswoman for the state Children's Protective Services, said the agency is working with mental health and other experts to make the children's transition as easy as possible.

The Associated Press: Polygamist Sect Encouraged Fear

Just out of curiousity, what is the rate of abuse in foster homes nowadays? Any statisitics would be appreciated. Also, what would be said if a group of fundamentalist Muslims had their kids rounded up, shipped to a state agency by busses owned by a local Jewish organization (these kids were hauled away on busses with the local Baptist Church logo on them) and then placed in homes of Catholics?

[a-train]

America is too busy passing judgment to be bothered by details such as religious freedom.

-a-train

[Hemidakota]

This is why we avoid the news outlet since most are biased in viewpoints.

[NormalMormon]

This is absolutely horrendous. Of course, the first thing many of these children are naturally going to do is start thinking the CHURCH is wrong, not the freaky FLDS church. But I would MUCH rather have these children out of harms way, and out of the hands of a disgusting group of polygamists, than make sure they are "lifelong" members of the church. How could anyone wish such a thing? I due time they will see the difference between what they were a part of, and what a Latter Day Saint is today. Until then, they need support and love in any form - not people worry about whether or not they are going to be "good - standing members of the LDS church."

[Fiannan]

This is absolutely horrendous. Of course, the first thing many of these children are naturally going to do is start thinking the CHURCH is wrong, not the freaky FLDS church. But I would MUCH rather have these children out of harms way, and out of the hands of a disgusting group of polygamists, than make sure they are "lifelong" members of the church. How could anyone wish such a thing? I due time they will see the difference between what they were a part of, and what a Latter Day Saint is today. Until then, they need support and love in any form - not people worry about whether or not they are going to be "good - standing members of the LDS church."

Did anyone even make this contention? I sure didn't. My point is that it's pretty darn dangerous if the state decides that these children need to be taken from their families and then "deprogramed". Like I said, hard cases make for bad laws. What's next, some polygamist group that actually has a sane leader? Shall we take their kids away? How about if we discover some Muslims who are practicing polygamy -- heck, steal their kids too? Maybe we could get some Jewish foster parents! And you think this government can be trusted with this sort of power? Maybe next they can take kids away from some Pentecostals who belong to a militia or maybe some Catholics who are teaching their kids that abortion and homosexuality are sins.

You may think this slippery slope won't occur here but maybe you should look across the pond to Europe -- look how homeschoolers in Belgium, Germany and Sweden are persecuted. It can happen here.

[Shell72]

Did anyone even make this contention? I sure didn't. My point is that it's pretty darn dangerous if the state decides that these children need to be taken from their families and then "deprogramed". Like I said, hard cases make for bad laws. What's next, some polygamist group that actually has a sane leader? Shall we take their kids away? How about if we discover some Muslims who are practicing polygamy -- heck, steal their kids too? Maybe we could get some Jewish foster parents! And you think this government can be trusted with this sort of power? Maybe next they can take kids away from some Pentecostals who belong to a militia or maybe some Catholics who are teaching their kids that abortion and homosexuality are sins.

You may think this slippery slope won't occur here but maybe you should look across the pond to Europe -- look how homeschoolers in Belgium, Germany and Sweden are persecuted. It can happen here.

I am thankful that the gov't stepped in and rescued these children.

[a-train]

An LDS bishop in my community who came from Samoa having several children sadly lost His youngest to a fall down a concrete set of stairs at the back door of his family's home. The toddler was not alone, but sustained a head injury on a concrete corner. The child was taken immediately to an emergency room where he died.

As if this was not a great enough tragedy, the remaining children were taken from the family and placed in foster care for several months while an investigation was conducted. The younger children were questioned and the father was implicated in physical abuse.

At the end of a long legal battle and ridiculous mess, the family was restored and together they grieved.

Young children were asked questions like: 'Does dad get mad?', 'Does dad spank you?' etc.

A teenage girl who lives across the street from me escaped the rules of her mom by claiming her step-father had molested her. She now lives with her pot-smoking dad while her brother remains with her mom, step-father, step-brother and step-sister. She openly told her friends in our neighborhood that she lied so her mother would lose custody and allow her to live with her dad. Things looked bad for her step-father because he once struck his wife's ex-hubby when the ex brought the kids home while driving intoxicated.

I hope and pray that the just and right course of action will become apparent and be pursued in the case of these FLDS people. If indeed there is some molestation, I hope the perpetrators are rightfully punished and the victims spared further harm.

-a-train

[Shell72]

An LDS bishop in my community from Samoa with several children sadly lost His youngest to a fall down a concrete set of stairs at the back door of their home. The toddler was not alone, but sustained a head injury on a concrete corner. The child was taken immediately to an emergency room where he died.

As if this was not a great enough tragedy, the remaining children were taken from the family and placed in foster care for several months while an investigation was conducted. The younger children were questioned and the father was implicated in physical abuse.

At the end of a long legal battle and ridiculous mess, the family was restored and together they grieved.

Young children were asked questions like: 'Does dad get mad?', 'Does dad spank you?' etc.

A teenage girl who lives across the street from me escaped the rules of her mom by claiming her step-father had molested her. She now lives with her pot-smoking dad while her brother remains with her mom, step-father, step-brother and step-sister. She openly told her friends in our neighborhood that she lied so her mother would lose custody and allow her to live with her dad. Things looked bad for her step-father because he once struck his wife's ex-hubby when the ex brought the kids home while driving intoxicated.

I hope and pray that the just and right course of action will become apparent and be pursued in the case of these FLDS people. If indeed there is some molestation, I hope the perpetrators are rightfully punished and the victims spared further harm.

-a-train

On the flip side though - many times children that are not taken out of homes should be. We can not fault the CPS for ensuring that children are safe.

Had the tradgedy with the little one falling down the stairs not been an accident, and the other children were hurt by the parents - Everyone would be screaming "Why didnt' they do something after one died?".

I feel so bad for CPS as it seems they are horrible if they do and horrible if they don't. I do believe they have the best interests of children at heart, and will make mistakes as they are human, but thank goodness they do what they do.

[Fiannan]

I am thankful that the gov't stepped in and rescued these children.

And thank goodness the Chinese military has stepped into Lhasa, Tibet and restored order.

[Fiannan]

On the flip side though - many times children that are not taken out of homes should be. We can not fault the CPS for ensuring that children are safe.

Had the tradgedy with the little one falling down the stairs not been an accident, and the other children were hurt by the parents - Everyone would be screaming "Why didnt' they do something after one died?".

I feel so bad for CPS as it seems they are horrible if they do and horrible if they don't. I do believe they have the best interests of children at heart, and will make mistakes as they are human, but thank goodness they do what they do.

Amazon.com: The Tyranny of Good Intentions: How Prosecutors and Bureaucrats Are Trampling the Constitution in the Name of Justice: Paul Craig Roberts,Lawrence M. Stratton: Books

I think it was President Ronald Reagan who made a point about excessive government intervention in people's lives by joking that the time to panic is when the government says not to worry, the government is here to save you.

[NormalMormon]

Did anyone even make this contention? I sure didn't. My point is that it's pretty darn dangerous if the state decides that these children need to be taken from their families and then "deprogramed". Like I said, hard cases make for bad laws. What's next, some polygamist group that actually has a sane leader? Shall we take their kids away?

Yes. Why allow polygamist groups to do this in the first place? Even if they ARE sane. That, by default, makes them all INSANE. Statutory rape, that's what it's called. Every single child in this practice SHOULD be taken away and "deprogrammed." They were taught all their lives that "it's okay if a 50 year old man has sex with you, it's what God wants." There's no other way than to teach them that what they've been learning is WRONG.

How about if we discover some Muslims who are practicing polygamy -- heck, steal their kids too? Maybe we could get some Jewish foster parents! And you think this government can be trusted with this sort of power? Maybe next they can take kids away from some Pentecostals who belong to a militia or maybe some Catholics who are teaching their kids that abortion and homosexuality are sins.

The FLDS practice is ILLEGAL, and rightfully so. Taking children away from these practices isn't the act of a power hugry government - but an act of kindness. Taking children away from Catholics who teach their children LEGAL values doesn't make sense.

[NormalMormon]

Did anyone even make this contention? I sure didn't. My point is that it's pretty darn dangerous if the state decides that these children need to be taken from their families and then "deprogramed". Like I said, hard cases make for bad laws. What's next, some polygamist group that actually has a sane leader? Shall we take their kids away?

Yes. Why allow polygamist groups to do this in the first place? Even if they ARE sane. That, by default, makes them all INSANE. Statutory rape, that's what it's called. Every single child in this practice SHOULD be taken away and "deprogrammed." They were taught all their lives that "it's okay if a 50 year old man has sex with you, it's what God wants." There's no other way than to teach them that what they've been learning is WRONG.

How about if we discover some Muslims who are practicing polygamy -- heck, steal their kids too? Maybe we could get some Jewish foster parents! And you think this government can be trusted with this sort of power? Maybe next they can take kids away from some Pentecostals who belong to a militia or maybe some Catholics who are teaching their kids that abortion and homosexuality are sins.

The FLDS practice is ILLEGAL, and rightfully so. Taking children away from these practices isn't the act of a power hugry government - but an act of kindness. Taking children away from Catholics who teach their children LEGAL values doesn't make sense.

[Fiannan]

I will note, here is a quote from a polygamist (on the run from the law for a while) demonstrating a desire to uphold the Constitution urging people in his particular organization to not follow laws that prohibited the free exercise of religion -- including polygamy. Opinions? I mean, doesn't he have a point?

. . I have watched with no little anxiety the encroachments of Government and the manifest desire to trample upon your rights. It is for you, however, to maintain them; and if those men that are traitors to the spirit and genius of the Constitution of the United States have a mind to trample under foot those principles that ought to guarantee protection to every American citizen, we will rally around the standard, and bid them defiance in the name of the Lord God of Israel.

In doing this, we neither forget our duties as citizens of the United States, nor as subjects of the kingdom and cause of God; but as the Lord has said, if we will keep His commandments, we need not transgress the laws of the land. We have not done it; we have maintained them all the time.

When we talk about the Constitution of the United States, we are sometimes apt to quote—"Vox populi, vox Dei;" that is, The voice of the people is the voice of God. But in some places they ought to say, VOX POPULI, VOX DIABOLI; that is, the voice of the people is the voice of the Devil.

We are moved by a higher law. . . .

We are not taking any steps contrary to the laws and the Constitution of the United States, but in everything we are upholding and sustaining them.

[ruthiechan]

It is not polygamy that is the problem but the manner in which it is executed.

I know people online who are in polygamous relationships (they are not RLDS), but it is between consenting ADULTS. There is a distinct difference between consenting adults and children.

[Fiannan]

It is not polygamy that is the problem but the manner in which it is executed.

I know people online who are in polygamous relationships (they are not RLDS), but it is between consenting ADULTS. There is a distinct difference between consenting adults and children.

Agreed, polygamist marriages should be recognized but only people 18 and over should be allowed to be married into these unions.

[a-train]

On the flip side though - many times children that are not taken out of homes should be. We can not fault the CPS for ensuring that children are safe.

Had the tradgedy with the little one falling down the stairs not been an accident, and the other children were hurt by the parents - Everyone would be screaming "Why didnt' they do something after one died?".

I feel so bad for CPS as it seems they are horrible if they do and horrible if they don't. I do believe they have the best interests of children at heart, and will make mistakes as they are human, but thank goodness they do what they do.

I'm not saying that CPS should not exist or should do nothing. I am saying that we should keep our fingers of scorn in our pockets. We should allow the law to take its course. It may be determined that atrocities heretofore unimagined have been committed, but it is just as likely that we may discover that this current situation is nothing but a standard teen-aged girl using CPS to get back at her husband or her folks.

I am reminded of O.G. Simpson who took a whole season of air-time on every network while white America cried for punishment only to end without the satisfaction. He is to this day a vagabond in the realm of white American public opinion.

Did he get away with murder? Maybe he did, but I'm not losing sleep over it. The LORD will set all things right. The man that killed my father was not even tried due to lack of evidence. Am I going to feel the least bit worried about it? What for?

We live in a country of religious tolerance. It may repulse us when we hear of teen-aged girls offered by their parents to be wives to older men. The practice may indeed be an abomination before God and nature. But if we wish to address the problem we must do so by the law.

The young woman being married and thus emancipated from her parents has her rights. Let her assert them and let the law defend them in due process. If a crime has been committed against her, let it come before the courts. If she wants a divorce, let her take that to the courts.

Let it all be done in wisdom and let us be lovers of liberty more than punishment.

-a-train

[Heather]

As soon as I heard that there were beds in their temple, I was completely behind the removal off all the children. But I will be sickened if this results in families being torn apart and those children ending up in foster homes. I hope they keep the children with their mothers and learn from the mistakes of the Colorado City raid of 1953.

[a-train]

As soon as I heard that there were beds in their temple, I was completely behind the removal off all the children. But I will be sickened if this results in families being torn apart and those children ending up in foster homes. I hope they keep the children with their mothers and learn from the mistakes of the Colorado City raid of 1953.

Beds in the temple?

[Heather]

"They felt if they did that that they'd be aiding or assisting us in the desecration of their worship place. So we had to use other means to gain entry and breach the doors," Caver said.

He said there was a basement and three stories in the temple. He said there were beds in the top floor of the building, but declined to describe any more details.

Deseret News | Search of FLDS temple site complete

Deseret News | Search: Were beds in temple used for teen sex?

[NormalMormon]

Agreed, polygamist marriages should be recognized but only people 18 and over should be allowed to be married into these unions.

Agreed. Even though it's sick.

[a-train]

I can remember seeing them burn the Branch Dividians to death in Waco while saying: 'they burned themselves' on television. They actually broadcast footage of the flamethrowers lighting the building and had the nerve to lie like that.

I just read several articles mentioning a bed on the third floor of the FLDS building with what looked to be a female hair on it. How do we know that bed is not for a security guard or for leadership who are expected to stay in the building on shifts through the night or something? Do we know who the hair actually belongs too? Are they married? Whether they are or not, does their hair on the bed prove they have been sexually violated?

Why are they printing information from unnamed informants? These people might be total sickos perverting the symbols and ordinances of the temple in a most disgusting manner, but none of this has yet to prove it.

Regardless, it seems law enforcement is working hard with the media to ruin these people in the realm of public opinion.

-a-train

[Shell72]

I can remember seeing them burn the Branch Dividians to death in Waco while saying: 'they burned themselves' on television. They actually broadcast footage of the flamethrowers lighting the building and had the nerve to lie like that.

I just read several articles mentioning a bed on the third floor of the FLDS building with what looked to be a female hair on it. How do we know that bed is not for a security guard or for leadership who are expected to stay in the building on shifts through the night or something? Do we know who the hair actually belongs too? Are they married? Whether they are or not, does their hair on the bed prove they have been sexually violated?

Why are they printing information from unnamed informants? These people might be total sickos perverting the symbols and ordinances of the temple in a most disgusting manner, but none of this has yet to prove it.

Regardless, it seems law enforcement is working hard with the media to ruin these people in the realm of public opinion.

-a-train

If I am recalling correctly a woman who left that compound prior to the raid has been on the news circuit talking about what happened in that compound..

I think people should get outraged at this sort of thing - perhaps the outrage may save others. My heart just aches for the young women and children that have lived like this. It's no way for a person to exist...

[a-train]

If I am recalling correctly a woman who left that compound prior to the raid has been on the news circuit talking about what happened in that compound..

I think people should get outraged at this sort of thing - perhaps the outrage may save others. My heart just aches for the young women and children that have lived like this. It's no way for a person to exist...

Burning the building down with the children inside is a little overboard I'd say. We need to be very careful to avoid mob activity.

-a-train