Alma 12:1-19 Point 3: The Spectrum of Godly Mysteries

[MaidservantX]

I think this is a fairly familiar scripture and most of us grasp the concepts:

vs 9 thru 11 (I'll make you look it up )

But here is a primer on the mysteries of God as found in these verses.

*many can and do know the mysteries

*the mysteries are to be obtained by heeding them

*the mysteries are to be obtained by diligence

*the mysteries can only be received by one with a soft heart

Also, verse 11 is highly interesting to me. "And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now, this is what is meant by the chains of hell."

I find it interesting that the chains of hell is spoken of in terms of whether one has the mysteries or not. (I am not identifying the mysteries -- not sure I know exactly except in my own learning.)

I don't see this as a reward/ penalty system. I see this as intrinsically maintaining a soft heart (etc) will have the mysteries manifest themselves. They can't be discerned with a hard heart.

In contrast to being taken down to destruction (if one hardens their heart to the mysteries) in verse 10, we have the final potential of those who are receiving the mysteries as "he knows them in full". (That's the spectrum I noted in the title . . . . from "destruction" on one end to "in full" on the other.)

Full is a good word. :)

Anyway, interesting.

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

I think this is a fairly familiar scripture and most of us grasp the concepts:

vs 9 thru 11 (I'll make you look it up )

But here is a primer on the mysteries of God as found in these verses.

*many can and do know the mysteries

*the mysteries are to be obtained by heeding them

*the mysteries are to be obtained by diligence

*the mysteries can only be received by one with a soft heart

Also, verse 11 is highly interesting to me. "And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now, this is what is meant by the chains of hell."

I find it interesting that the chains of hell is spoken of in terms of whether one has the mysteries or not. (I am not identifying the mysteries -- not sure I know exactly except in my own learning.)

I don't see this as a reward/ penalty system. I see this as intrinsically maintaining a soft heart (etc) will have the mysteries manifest themselves. They can't be discerned with a hard heart.

In contrast to being taken down to destruction (if one hardens their heart to the mysteries) in verse 10, we have the final potential of those who are receiving the mysteries as "he knows them in full". (That's the spectrum I noted in the title . . . . from "destruction" on one end to "in full" on the other.)

Full is a good word. :)

Anyway, interesting.

So... have we taken to having Sunday School lessons in the lds.net forums now?

Another interesting note, assuming everything you said is accurate, is that line "to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries..." I find this interesting because it implies that you don't simply learn less, but that you UNlearn what you may have known before. There's no static point where you keep the knowledge you have and just don't build on it - you're either gaining knowledge or losing it completely. People have talked about this in terms of gaining or losing a testimony, but applying the concept to knowledge and understanding of the Gospel in general is not something I've heard spoken of before.

I have a bookmark on verse 10 because of the words "in full". That says to me that EVERYONE and ANYONE on this earth CAN learn EVERYTHING about creation as much as Moses or Abraham knew IN THIS LIFE. That's a big deal.

[MaidservantX]

I agree about the unlearning, puf. Thanks for bringing that up, that's very important.

Here's one: D & C 1:23 - 28, 33

[WillowTheWhisp]

So... have we taken to having Sunday School lessons in the lds.net forums now?

Well, this is the 'Scripture Study' section. :)

I've been thinking about this unlearning thing and I think I know two people who have managed to unlearn, or at least forgotten things that they once knew and have lost their testimonies. One is no longer attending church although I'm not sure if her name is still on record. The other was once my Bishop which is why it is even the more difficult to understand how he can have unlearned so much. Twenty years ago he was a great teacher and his knowledge and understanding of the Gospel was brilliant.

[Hemidakota]

So... have we taken to having Sunday School lessons in the lds.net forums now?

Another interesting note, assuming everything you said is accurate, is that line "to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries..." I find this interesting because it implies that you don't simply learn less, but that you UNlearn what you may have known before. There's no static point where you keep the knowledge you have and just don't build on it - you're either gaining knowledge or losing it completely. People have talked about this in terms of gaining or losing a testimony, but applying the concept to knowledge and understanding of the Gospel in general is not something I've heard spoken of before.

I have a bookmark on verse 10 because of the words "in full". That says to me that EVERYONE and ANYONE on this earth CAN learn EVERYTHING about creation as much as Moses or Abraham knew IN THIS LIFE. That's a big deal.

Since it is the correct forum, I have no problem. To become unlearn is usually stems from those who eventually apostasy from the truth.

Though, I do agree. We have the sincere desire to know about the Creation, it is not only given to Moses, Abraham, Joseph Smith. Brother of Jared, Enoch, Nephi, and few more, we can obtain it. Sad part, it is hard not to write about and commanded not to do so. Sharing it is quite harder since many 'eyes are close' to this wondrous knowledge and care not to learn more than what is written. It also can be disturbing if we are not mature enough to receive it . Yet, the Lord may impart mysteries early in life, that it may take a lifetime to come to a full understanding of its meaning.

[MaidservantX]

I wish to note that I have experienced this unlearning myself, so I know it is a phenomenon. Thankfully, I was also able to recognize what was happening and take steps to "learn" again. This experience, for me, was in connection with sin and despair.

I also wish to offer my humble opinion that the "distance to Kolob in light-years" is NOT a mystery of God. The mysteries of God, or many of them anyway, are actually quite plain before us in the scriptures, in life experiences as we humble ourselves and are obedient to principles, and in the learning and experience provided to all who will, in the temple. A person who has the lesser light may still be capable of listing off on her fingers the mysteries of God -- she may be able to mentally and verbally articulate them -- but she will not know them. She will not have absorbed their power into her soul and be able to apply them within the order of her mortal life. She will not be any closer to the presence of the Father. Does that make sense?

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

I wish to note that I have experienced this unlearning myself, so I know it is a phenomenon. Thankfully, I was also able to recognize what was happening and take steps to "learn" again. This experience, for me, was in connection with sin and despair.

I also wish to offer my humble opinion that the "distance to Kolob in light-years" is NOT a mystery of God. The mysteries of God, or many of them anyway, are actually quite plain before us in the scriptures, in life experiences as we humble ourselves and are obedient to principles, and in the learning and experience provided to all who will, in the temple. A person who has the lesser light may still be capable of listing off on her fingers the mysteries of God -- she may be able to mentally and verbally articulate them -- but she will not know them. She will not have absorbed their power into her soul and be able to apply them within the order of her mortal life. She will not be any closer to the presence of the Father. Does that make sense?

I think I may have said this before on another thread somewhere but my institute teacher has said that the "mysteries of God" are those things that can "Only be learned through personal revelation." This applies not only to HG guided inspiration on understanding scripture, but to many things not contained in our scriptural canon. Remember that the scriptures we have contain the Fullness of the Gospel - that which is required to guide us to exaltation. They don't, however, contain everything we can learn about the ways of God. As an example, I'd go back to 3rd Nephi where Jesus is teaching the Nephites - but he commands Moroni not to include those teachings in the Book of Mormon. What Jesus taught there would be a "mystery of God". Anywho - that's what makes sense in my little pea-sized brain.

[skalenfehl]

The chains of hell. Think about what chains do for us. If we're not seeking the mysteries of God, or in other words the doctrines of the gospel, we can't learn line upon line and precept upon precept. We dam our selves like a dam stops the flow of water in it's progress. We might as well be imprisoned and chained down. That's what we're allowing to happen when we don't seek out truth and continue to grow in that truth. Though the course of the Lord is an eternal round, ours, for the moment is linear. When we stop moving forward like that river, we are dammed and then damned as well for the world will continue to move forward, leaving us behind.

[Hemidakota]

It goes back to D&C 130:19-21, it reads:

18 Whatever principle of aintelligence• we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the bresurrection•.

19 And if a person gains more aknowledge• and intelligence in this life through his bdiligence• and obedience than another, he will have so much the cadvantage• in the world to come.

20 There is a alaw•, irrevocably decreed in bheaven• before the foundations of this world, upon which all cblessings• are predicated—

21 And when we obtain any ablessing• from God, it is by bobedience• to that law upon which it is predicated.

I concur what Joseph Smith was alluding too. I wish so much for others to reach the same level as he did; that we all can be together in the end. Yet, at times I cry as Nephi and others have done over the brethren of the church.

[bert10]

Hi. That is a good thread starter. I hope many comments on it so that we can teach each other.

When I read that part this, I listened and these are some of the thoughts that came to me..

Alma 12:9 - And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him.

1. Not cast pearls before swines...was always a commandment and it is still valid and was even practiced by Jesus.

2. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. John 16:12 These teachings that the Apostles could not bear would have to wait until after the Resurrection for Jesus was about to be taken.

3. The Commission of this church. - Say nothing but repentance unto this generation; keep my commandments, and assist to bring forth my work, according to my commandments, and you shall be blessed. D&C 6:9

How many people are refusing to join the LDS simply because they have not yet gone into the Gospel of Repentance do not have the Comforter and now have access to temple rituals and other teachings that require the Holy Ghost to testify that it is true? How many are dragging what is sacred to the mud?

And yet today we are in the times of the restitution of all things and because of the Internet we are not responsible anymore unto those for the information that is spread over the whole world. It is also helping us in sorting out those who truly thirst and hungers for the Truth. And they who join the LDS after reading all that stuff....will probably not apostatized when times are hard.

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Alma 12:11 - And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell.

I listened and this is what I got. The Lesser portion of the WORD [the Word is Christ and Christ means Anointed One with Light] So the Lesser portion of the WORD means one will receives less light. And since no one is static...meaning we are either moving towards the Light [WORD] or we are Moving towards Darkness. So if we move towards darkness of soul....and Once our whole soul is darkened...Satan has power to bring us to destruction.

<>Mysteries simply mean what is hidden. Also....Paul basically said even if we understood all the mysteries of God without Charity "I am Nothing".

<>chains of hell....is everything that MAKES us WEAKER [binding] and PULLS us closer to darkness. The stronger the chain the greater the habit or leaning one has towards a particular weakness or sin.

Damnation is to be without LIGHT.

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Here is an example on one of the Mystery of God.

Alma 12:12 - And Amulek hath spoken plainly concerning death, and being raised from this mortality to a state of immortality, and being brought before the bar of God, to be judged according to our works.

How many Christians say that they are saved by faith or by grace alone?

Truly they are wonderful in their errors.....When one post with the Christians one gets to see the gospel come alive And the words of the prophets begin to come alive full of meaning... for what the prophets have gone thru so do those who post with the Philistines shall have to suffer.

I hope that you guys liked this perspective. And that I have not posted in vain.

These were just some of my thoughts on these two verses and on the example.

Peace be unto you

bert10

I think this is a fairly familiar scripture and most of us grasp the concepts:

vs 9 thru 11 (I'll make you look it up )

But here is a primer on the mysteries of God as found in these verses.

*many can and do know the mysteries

*the mysteries are to be obtained by heeding them

*the mysteries are to be obtained by diligence

*the mysteries can only be received by one with a soft heart

Also, verse 11 is highly interesting to me. "And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now, this is what is meant by the chains of hell."

I find it interesting that the chains of hell is spoken of in terms of whether one has the mysteries or not. (I am not identifying the mysteries -- not sure I know exactly except in my own learning.)

I don't see this as a reward/ penalty system. I see this as intrinsically maintaining a soft heart (etc) will have the mysteries manifest themselves. They can't be discerned with a hard heart.

In contrast to being taken down to destruction (if one hardens their heart to the mysteries) in verse 10, we have the final potential of those who are receiving the mysteries as "he knows them in full". (That's the spectrum I noted in the title . . . . from "destruction" on one end to "in full" on the other.)

Full is a good word. :)

Anyway, interesting.

[Hemidakota]

Bert, your posting are not posted in vain. Keep up the posting, nice to see other views on what is.