john 3:16 question for mormons

[Misshalfway]

In all due respect..by your own admission of forgiveness of sins of how lds get forgiveness of sins you are claiming a works based salvation. Baptism does not save you. YOu said I quote "we must continue in obedience and repentace thru out our lifes" This is same argument Catholics love to use. Have you ever read through romans and James.. without the lds commentary to interepret for you? Just read through this books they are life changing books.

just something to consider for you or others..justification is alot different then santification.

You say "in all due respect"..... I am not sure you understand that while your argument is interesting, your tone is disrespectful.

I don't expect everyone to believe what I believe just because I explain it to them. But when someone comes and asks for an honest answer, I suppose I expect that it should be received with a spirit of genuine respect. Not the searching thru my words to find ammunition for proving ones rightness.

I believe, as do LDS people, that salvation comes from and thru the Lord Jesus Christ. Your above description chooses to eliminate that fact. We do believe as other posters have beautifully stated, that faith and works are required of God BEFORE he grants his salvation. It is a salvation that is His to give. I can do nothing of myself to earn it. But that does not mean God does not expect and require my obedience. It is an issue of obedience NOT earning. I hope you can see the difference.

I won't share with you my experience with the sacred and powerful books of the Bible with which you refer. I think I will save that for a more equitable conversation.

[Hemidakota]

Defecation level here is growing deeper while the spirit is brooding.

[MorningStar]

morning star your getting argumentive..I'm not sure why..I never said I had been studing morminism for just 4 months.. In last 4 months I have been really asking some difficult questions..but I have been looking at morminism for most of my life..but up untill recently it started to impact my life because I started to devolp friends that were in the reglion..This is not a me against you morning star..

As far as jena,...Thank you. your insights cleared up my question! Actually that was first clear response I have recieved thus far. Thank you thank you!!!!!!!!!!!

and as far as the other post of scripture and mary concieved by the holy spirt...Exactly!

Maybe it's because you were sounding like you were trying to tell me what our church's doctrine is and I disliked it. You wrote this:

as far as mary have sexual relations with God..okay

maybe not all mormons agree on their own doctrine then...

It sounded like you were trying to say that is our doctrine and that I just don't agree with it. Sorry if I misunderstood. It is definitely not our doctrine.

[MsMagnolia]

one more thought..the scriptures also tell us No one has seen God

the bible specifically teaches that man has seen God "face to face"

Exodus 33:11 Moses saw God and spoke to him.

[Hemidakota]

In the Bible, any prophet called by God is a direct witness of the Godhead.

[MsMagnolia]

The book of mormon was written by a man...

The bible was written by MEN.. those men were Prophets of God. The Book of Mormon was written by Prophets of God and translated by a specially chosen seer to bring it forth in this dispensation for OUR DAY. to Clarify the "plain and precious truths" that were removed from the bible.

[Misshalfway]

The book of mormon was written by a man...

I was gonna comment on this one too. I think it is a common misbelief that Joseph Smith "wrote" the Book of Mormon.

He translated it.

In truth the Book of Mormon has multiple authors -- people who lived and recorded their spiritual teachings in the Americas. The book itself is a compilation of many records spread over many hundreds of years....before and after the coming of Jesus...that were extracted from larger records and put together by a man named Mormon. Thus the name of the book and our familiar nick-name.

It is a testimony....another testament....of Jesus Christ. It was written under the direction of God and sealed up or hidden until the time was right for the record to come forth. It wasn't meant to replace the Bible. It was meant to help man understand it more clearly and to convince man to come to Christ. Please understand that Joseph was commanded by God to translate the record....orginally engraved on golden plates or thin metal pages....into English.

One of my favorite verses is found on the last page of the book. It is an invitation given by a man named Moroni....Mormon's son. He says,

32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.

33 And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot.

34 And now I bid unto all, farewell. I soon go to rest in the paradise of God, until my spirit and body shall again reunite, and I am brought forth triumphant through the air, to meet you before the pleasing bar of the great Jehovah, the Eternal Judge of both quick and dead. Amen.

* VERSE 1 (ABOUT A.D. 421). (Moroni 10)

[lostnfound]

I find this rather condesending. I have infact read the NT, many many times, both on my own time, and with "LDS commentary" and still believe that we are Saved through Christ, but that our works play a part in it. I think the key difference is that LDS do not believe in "once saved always saved". You can accept Christ with your lips all you want, but if your heart isn't truely His (humbling yourself, repenting of sins, loving your neighbor, etc.) then it will profit you nothing. Accepting Christ means accepting ALL of Him; not just His Holy Name, but His commandments.

Matt. 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

First, Let me say I am sorry if I sounded condesending. please forgive me. The computer is a lousy form of communication. You type something and others will think it is scarcastic or rude and you did not communicate it that way at all. :):)

I agree with you that works play a huge role in our relationship with God. But nowhere in the bible does it say baptisim is part of salvation. Remember the thief on the cross? He was saved because he acknoledged he was a sinner and he needed Christ to forgive him of his sins. He put his faith in Christ that day alone! Now does a true believer get baptised yes..and follow God Yes? And you are correct saying Lord Lord will not get you into heaven nor will some magical prayer as some would suggest. but understanding 1. YOu are a sinner and can't earn your way to heaven by any way...like baptisim, church, doing good, confirmation, tithing, prayers...to name a few that i have heard over the years..but saying Lord, I know that your son came to die for my sins and I put today my faith in him alone and asking him to come into your life..Here is what I know for sure. I am a Sinner saved by the Grace of Jesus who died for my sins on the cross. I will never be like him or become him. Where was I when he laid the foundations of the earth he tells me. He is holier than I could ever imagine and has transformed my life. I would never put myself on his level in anyway because he is perfect and I am not. He created me and not I Him. I am fallen and he is not.

Anyways, glad to hear you seek him.

[Jenamarie]

But nowhere in the bible does it say baptisim is part of salvation. Remember the thief on the cross?

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

And LDS belief is that the thief went to Paradise, not Heaven, as we haven't been Judged yet. Paradise is where those who believed in Christ, *or* who didn't believe in Christ, but were still good people (like the follower of Tash in The Last Battle from the Chronicles of Narnia) will go to Paradise, where they will hear the Word of the Lord, and have the opportunity to have those of us here on Earth perform proxy baptisms in the Temple on behalf of that person so that they can enter the Kingdom of God.

[WillowTheWhisp]

"Go ye therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." Matthew 28:19 - the words of Jesus Christ (my emphasis)

[lostnfound]

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

And LDS belief is that the thief went to Paradise, not Heaven, as we haven't been Judged yet. Paradise is where those who believed in Christ, *or* who didn't believe in Christ, but were still good people (like the follower of Tash in The Last Battle from the Chronicles of Narnia) will go to Paradise, where they will hear the Word of the Lord, and have the opportunity to have those of us here on Earth perform proxy baptisms in the Temple on behalf of that person so that they can enter the Kingdom of God.

The only placed this word is used in the nt is 2CO 12:4 and Rev 2:7 The word suggests garden like the word used in Eden but in all three NT uses it speaks of heaven.

Another thing. Would that mean that Jesus did not go to heaven that day according to lds? Because you said its a holding place to continue to work out salvation so to speak. Because Christ said to the thief.. Today you will be with me in Paradise. It is important to do the cross reference of how the word is used throughout the bible to have a better idea of what Christ was talking about here.

But this thought you wrote about is almost exactly what Catholics would say as well. They have purgatory. And have to continue to have loved ones here pray for them and put money into the system to get them out of purgatory into Heaven. Did Joseph Smith have any ties to Catholism at one point? Do you know?

[Jenamarie]

The Catholics no longer recognize Purgatory. Pope Benedict came out with a clear statement of that last year.

Joseph Smith was never Catholic.

Jesus did ascend into Heaven during the three days between his death and Resurrection. How exactly He divided His time there we only know a little. We know that He returned to the Father, and that he preached to the Dead.

[Misshalfway]

First, Let me say I am sorry if I sounded condesending. please forgive me. The computer is a lousy form of communication. You type something and others will think it is scarcastic or rude and you did not communicate it that way at all. :):)

I agree with you that works play a huge role in our relationship with God. But nowhere in the bible does it say baptisim is part of salvation. Remember the thief on the cross? He was saved because he acknoledged he was a sinner and he needed Christ to forgive him of his sins. He put his faith in Christ that day alone! Now does a true believer get baptised yes..and follow God Yes? And you are correct saying Lord Lord will not get you into heaven nor will some magical prayer as some would suggest. but understanding 1. YOu are a sinner and can't earn your way to heaven by any way...like baptisim, church, doing good, confirmation, tithing, prayers...to name a few that i have heard over the years..but saying Lord, I know that your son came to die for my sins and I put today my faith in him alone and asking him to come into your life..Here is what I know for sure. I am a Sinner saved by the Grace of Jesus who died for my sins on the cross. I will never be like him or become him. Where was I when he laid the foundations of the earth he tells me. He is holier than I could ever imagine and has transformed my life. I would never put myself on his level in anyway because he is perfect and I am not. He created me and not I Him. I am fallen and he is not.

Anyways, glad to hear you seek him.

It is all good. The computer is a tough form of communication. We can't see each others faces.

I think from the LDS point of view, the act of asking Christ to come into your life is an act or a work. And keeping Him in your life takes constant discipline. We too believe that all are sinners. We too believe that Christ died on the cross. I think we both acknowledge that their is some requirement for the Atonement to take effect in a person's life. I think that "saved by Grace" theology and LDS theology differ as to what exactly those requirements are. I have been in this same conversation many times. And it basically boils down to that question. There are lots of misunderstandings about what LDS beliefs are and what they mean. There are many inside of the Christian denominations that believe different parts of our teachings. We believe baptism is essential. I believe the Baptists do too. It is difficult for me to understand "saved by grace" philosophy because it seems to omit many of the Lord's actions and commandments to the Apostles. Baptism is a good example of that. It also confuses me when I hear that Hell is preached from many pulpits. The fear of hell and the abomination of sin. If all are that are saved are cleansed and don't commit sin anymore, then why are there such preachings and such fear of condemnation? It seems to me that what you call being "Saved", we equate with our experience at baptism -- being Born again. What you call the righteous expression after being saved we believe too. We just believe that those are choices that we make every day and that they come because our hearts have been changed but that we are constantly learning and trying to master the "natural man" or our sinful, human parts. We believe that thru the process of obedience... and application of the gospel and all of its ordinances will help us transform and progress. To us coming to Christ is more than just becoming clean. It is about progression and perfection oneself thru Christ. We believe that we are held responsible for those choices. Do you believe that God holds men responsible for choices????

[lostnfound]

I am going to spend a few moments explaining this..because I believe it the most important thing to talk about on this forum or any other forum. In person or computer..

The short answer to your question is God will hold us to our choices.

but on salvation..There are three words to understand. Justification, santification and glorification.

Justification: When people accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior something happens. They become Justified and declared guitless. Acts 13:39, Romans 3:28 and 5:1

We are unable to comply with all God's standards. Rom 3:23, gen 8:21, PS 51:5 58:3, Eccles 9:3 Jer 17:9) WE deserve death becaouse our work are like filthy rags. rom 66:23 Isa 64:6

A good story to understand Justification by Faith alone is the Phillipian jailer in act 16 This story is important to understand so I suggest spending a few moments reading it.

Santification: justification takes place in a second..santification will continue Corinthians 6:11 Never has the christian church taught that we have the license to break God's commands..and if you ever hear of one get out.

Glorification: takes place when we meet our maker..1 Thess 3:13

[lostnfound]

oops one more thing..you wrote about hell being preached. I am not sure who exactly you are talking about here. But If a prostenant church is talking about hell to its members i WOULD ASSUME that it is in reference to non believers sitting there. Because if you have never asked Jesus to be your lord and savior and put your faith in him alone and nothing else.then you are in danger of hell. That is what the bible teaches. Just thought you might want to know that..and I have never been apart of a church that says once you are saved you sin no more. If I ever hear that from a preacher I would run to the exit sign because that is not what the bible says ethier. I sin every day! We can't wake up without sinning. Why? because we are a fallen creation. Absoutly repenting of any known sin..but not to be justified all over again and again..but to get in right alignment with my Lord.(santification)

[lostnfound]

The Catholics no longer recognize Purgatory. Pope Benedict came out with a clear statement of that last year.

Joseph Smith was never Catholic.

Jesus did ascend into Heaven during the three days between his death and Resurrection. How exactly He divided His time there we only know a little. We know that He returned to the Father, and that he preached to the Dead.

Yep, because in Catholisim the Pope is God so to speak and given the keys to heaven and hell and whatever he says it becomes dogma But purgatory was preached all these years.

The bible becomes a second athority to them...Tradition and the pope are above God's word. Like many faiths our their.

[WillowTheWhisp]

Jesus did ascend into Heaven during the three days between his death and Resurrection. How exactly He divided His time there we only know a little. We know that He returned to the Father, and that he preached to the Dead.

From reading John 20:17 it sounds like he didn't ascend into Heaven during those three days because he said to Mary Magdalene "Touch me not for I am nit yet ascended to my Father." He did go to preach to those in the spirit world and also to preach to the Nephites on the American continent. So it actually makes perfect sense for him to say to the repentant theif that he would be with him in Paradise, but Paradise would not mean Heaven or the Celestial Kingdom where the Father dwells.

[WillowTheWhisp]

I have never been apart of a church that says once you are saved you sin no more. If I ever hear that from a preacher I would run to the exit sign because that is not what the bible says ethier. I sin every day! We can't wake up without sinning. Why? because we are a fallen creation. Absoutly repenting of any known sin..but not to be justified all over again and again..but to get in right alignment with my Lord.(santification)

I think what you are talking about here is similar to what we are talking about which comes under the heading of 'works' - trying not to give in to temptation, obeying commandments, repenting when we do wrong. The obedience bit covers doing things Jesus asked us to do such as feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and imprisoned etc. These we class as works. I'm sure you would agree that we are supposed to be obedient and do the things Jesus asks us to do - so do we really have a difference of opinion here at all? Perhaps it's just a difference of understanding or terminology.

[Misshalfway]

I think I can see what you are trying to say. I hope you can see that we are really not that different.

I am trying to interpret your terminology correctly, so forgive me if I don't get it spot on.

Justification. Yes. We believe this concept too. It happens for us, at baptism. Isn't this similar to being born again? or becoming converted to Christ?

Sanctification. Yes. We believe in this process as well. For us, we are sanctified and cleansed at baptism. We are given a new heart and a fresh start as our sins are cleansed and we are made clean. But sanctication for us is a process that continues beyond baptism as our natures are refined. It is thru the deliberate righteous and correct choices that we make in all areas of our lives that help us to become refined. This process is at the core of the Grace of our Lord. Because I can choose.....but I can't sanctify myself. That is his gift. And because God follows eternal law, if I obey, he must follow with the blessing. Logic follows the other direction as well -- God can sanctify and save, but he won't until I choose him.

Glorification....it sounds like you are saying what we call exhaltation. We believe that basically salvation and Exhaltation are the same thing. We believe that there are degrees to salvation that are only granted after this life. Part of salvation is resurrection. THis gift is for every single soul without exception. But there is a spiritual salvation that will be determined by judgement according our works....whatevery they were. This will happen for every soul. Then a just salvation will be granted.

That is why we sometimes struggle with the phrase "I got saved" because it implies that God has made his final decision about a soul long before the judgement day. That is why we prefer the term born again or sometimes we simplify it even more by referring to membership. I think we are basically saying the same thing.

I feel like there is a discrepancy in your description. Perhaps you can explain. I hear you....and others say that we will be judged according to our choices. In my mind, choices and works are the same thing. I think that God gives commandments. I think he expects us to obey. Particularly if we have experienced spiritual manifestations in our lives. With more knowledge comes more responsibility. When you say that a person can't earn salvation. I see what you are saying. And I too feel a great reverence for the Grace of God! But, I don't understand how one can be saved and need judgement at the same time. Perhaps the concepts we believe are closer than the words we choose to use to explain them. I think that without commandments clearly laid out for the children of men to follow, confusion then spreads. I think there is much in the way of confusion in the Christian world. I think there is much in the way of variety in definition of what the Lord expects. I feel confused when I hear that I must be saved.....but then must choose correctly or I will go to hell.....but that I can't earn my salvation because I am not suppose to do works....but if I don't do good works then I am evil. Do you see my confusion? Prolly not explaining it well. Hmph! I get that at conversion, the nature changes. But I don't see that the process makes one perfect. What better than a requirement to obey is there to keep the children of men in the right way? And if a person is saved, but does sin, what are his consequences? How can he be unclean and achieve salvation? he would have to repent and restore obedience. Would he not?

[lostnfound]

I think what you are talking about here is similar to what we are talking about which comes under the heading of 'works' - trying not to give in to temptation, obeying commandments, repenting when we do wrong. The obedience bit covers doing things Jesus asked us to do such as feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and imprisoned etc. These we class as works. I'm sure you would agree that we are supposed to be obedient and do the things Jesus asks us to do - so do we really have a difference of opinion here at all? Perhaps it's just a difference of understanding or terminology.

The difference although may seem small to you is actually huge in theology. LDS santification is their justification it is all wrapped together so to speak as jenamarie pointed out...and my justification is not my santication..refer to other post above. :):)

Actually every reglion can be boiled down this as well..Ethier it is works based for saved by faith alone.

[lostnfound]

I think I can see what you are trying to say. I hope you can see that we are really not that different.

I am trying to interpret your terminology correctly, so forgive me if I don't get it spot on.

Justification. Yes. We believe this concept too. It happens for us, at baptism. Isn't this similar to being born again? or becoming converted to Christ?

Sanctification. Yes. We believe in this process as well. For us, we are sanctified and cleansed at baptism. We are given a new heart and a fresh start as our sins are cleansed and we are made clean. But sanctication for us is a process that continues beyond baptism as our natures are refined. It is thru the deliberate righteous and correct choices that we make in all areas of our lives that help us to become refined. This process is at the core of the Grace of our Lord. Because I can choose.....but I can't sanctify myself. That is his gift. And because God follows eternal law, if I obey, he must follow with the blessing. Logic follows the other direction as well -- God can sanctify and save, but he won't until I choose him.

Glorification....it sounds like you are saying what we call exhaltation. We believe that basically salvation and Exhaltation are the same thing. We believe that there are degrees to salvation that are only granted after this life. Part of salvation is resurrection. THis gift is for every single soul without exception. But there is a spiritual salvation that will be determined by judgement according our works....whatevery they were. This will happen for every soul. Then a just salvation will be granted.

That is why we sometimes struggle with the phrase "I got saved" because it implies that God has made his final decision about a soul long before the judgement day. That is why we prefer the term born again or sometimes we simplify it even more by referring to membership. I think we are basically saying the same thing.

I feel like there is a discrepancy in your description. Perhaps you can explain. I hear you....and others say that we will be judged according to our choices. In my mind, choices and works are the same thing. I think that God gives commandments. I think he expects us to obey. Particularly if we have experienced spiritual manifestations in our lives. With more knowledge comes more responsibility. When you say that a person can't earn salvation. I see what you are saying. And I too feel a great reverence for the Grace of God! But, I don't understand how one can be saved and need judgement at the same time. Perhaps the concepts we believe are closer than the words we choose to use to explain them. I think that without commandments clearly laid out for the children of men to follow, confusion then spreads. I think there is much in the way of confusion in the Christian world. I think there is much in the way of variety in definition of what the Lord expects. I feel confused when I hear that I must be saved.....but then must choose correctly or I will go to hell.....but that I can't earn my salvation because I am not suppose to do works....but if I don't do good works then I am evil. Do you see my confusion? Prolly not explaining it well. Hmph! I get that at conversion, the nature changes. But I don't see that the process makes one perfect. What better than a requirement to obey is there to keep the children of men in the right way? And if a person is saved, but does sin, what are his consequences? How can he be unclean and achieve salvation? he would have to repent and restore obedience. Would he not?

Great insights..and completely worth answering in detail. I think I can or hope I can clarify. would probably be easier in person and with a bible but..I will post later on this..in the meantime read those scripture reference I gave you so we can be on the same page. :) I will write on this tonight.:)

[Misshalfway]

oops one more thing..you wrote about hell being preached. I am not sure who exactly you are talking about here. But If a prostenant church is talking about hell to its members i WOULD ASSUME that it is in reference to non believers sitting there. Because if you have never asked Jesus to be your lord and savior and put your faith in him alone and nothing else.then you are in danger of hell. That is what the bible teaches. Just thought you might want to know that..and I have never been apart of a church that says once you are saved you sin no more. If I ever hear that from a preacher I would run to the exit sign because that is not what the bible says ethier. I sin every day! We can't wake up without sinning. Why? because we are a fallen creation. Absoutly repenting of any known sin..but not to be justified all over again and again..but to get in right alignment with my Lord.(santification)

How is this different than "once saved always saved". If hell is only for the unbelievers, then the bible doesn't make much sense to me. Not everyone that believes will be saved. The Lord makes that clear. (And i know I should quote the dang verse. You all will have to forgive me this time round.)

And just for the record, I hear hell a lot from lots of pulpits. I am sad to hear that only nonbelievers are subject to it. What are the consequences for the un-obedient believers if not hell? They just get a free pass......and will sin every day but it is ok cuz they believe?

Yes, we are all fallen. Thus the Savior. He literally brings us out of a fallen state. He justifies us yes, cleanses us yes.....but he does more than that. He, thru our cooperation, makes us fit to live in the presence of God again because when we obey, as He does, we won't sin. Obedience keeps us just as clean as repentance does.

[Jenamarie]

lostnfound: if I could be so bold... You started out posting here saying that you were trying to learn more about what Mormons believe, because you live and/or work in an area now where there are lots of LDS people around, and you wanted to better understand them.

However, from your posts today, I'm getting more of the impression that, rather than trying to understand us, you're trying to "save" us and point out to us the "error" of our ways. Am I correct in this assumption?

Are you really here to understand, or to prostelyte?

[WillowTheWhisp]

The LDS faith is neither works based nor saved by faith alone. It is as the Bible says, we are saved by grace after all that we can do, and faith without works is dead. To us the two go hand in hand. We do not obey in order to earn salvation. We obey out of gratitude for the gift.

What about when Jesus said that if we don't do these things for the least of our brethren we are not doing them for him and he will say he never knew us?

[lostnfound]

lostnfound: if I could be so bold... You started out posting here saying that you were trying to learn more about what Mormons believe, because you live and/or work in an area now where there are lots of LDS people around, and you wanted to better understand them.

However, from your posts today, I'm getting more of the impression that, rather than trying to understand us, you're trying to "save" us and point out to us the "error" of our ways. Am I correct in this assumption?

Are you really here to understand, or to prostelyte?

There are a couple of things that I do not understand how the lds reconsile to the scriptures. It would be nice to better understand these questions like in my original post..but that does not mean I am ignorant to the scriptures. as the post went on and various things were brought up..it went on to works/faith based salvation and what exactly that means..which I will clarify. It is what I believe the most important thing to talk about.

People brought up some interesting things and including in that is that we agree. which we do not..so that might be what you are thinking. I do not know. :) But no my original agenda has not changed in that there are a couple of questions I was not sure how lds see this scripture in light of their beliefs etc..however from time to time that does not mean I wont interject. :) hope that helps..