john 3:16 question for mormons

[lostnfound]

I'm sorry but I don't know what you mean by 'the McArthur camp' and 'the Hodges camp' - are you saying that an official LDS website was agreeing with or disagreeing with the idea that all you need is 'head knowledge'? LDS doctrine specifically states that simply knowing about Jesus is not enough. We need faith, repentance baptism and the Holy Ghost.

It seems from what you have said that we at least agree that head knowledge as you call it is not enough, that even Satan knows Jesus. Again you have said that a true belief produces the desire to obey and do good works. This again is exactly the LDS stance which you seem to criticise us for. I'm puzzled.

no willow just the opposite the lds website was agreeing more with the mcarthur camp. I will find the website and give it to you. It was alligning itself with the Lordship debate (macarthur supports this view)

[Misshalfway]

What is the url of where your were reading? I read LDS.org all the time and these ideas and people are very foreign.

[Misshalfway]

So lost, do you feel like your questions have been adequately answered?

[lostnfound]

Mormons and Salvation: Faith, Grace, and Works - "Mormon" Doctrine - What Does It Take to Be Saved?

okay here is the lds site on the lordship debate. Mcarthur is someone who I would consider a worthy teacher of the true gospel.

[lostnfound]

my suggestion is read macarthurs book for yourself with lds commentary though. The article is twisting it to fit its doctrine. But I thought it was cool how they mention it. Most prostestants do not even no that these two theologies exist.

misshalfway..I am definelty getting some great responses. If another question comes up I'll just start a new thread like the flds vs lds..

or the multiple god question..I have others on celestial law..and problems with joseph smith's prophecies..but one thing at a time.:)

[WillowTheWhisp]

Mormons and Salvation: Faith, Grace, and Works - "Mormon" Doctrine - What Does It Take to Be Saved?

okay here is the lds site on the lordship debate. Mcarthur is someone who I would consider a worthy teacher of the true gospel.

Thank you for the link. First of all I just want to point out that it is a personal website not an official Church one, although the author is LDS. I'll read it now and see if I can understand what you are referring to.

[Hemidakota]

my suggestion is read macarthurs book for yourself with lds commentary though. The article is twisting it to fit its doctrine. But I thought it was cool how they mention it. Most prostestants do not even no that these two theologies exist.

:)

What is the name of the book?

[WillowTheWhisp]

I have read some of the website and so far I agree with what it says, and it shows the same sort of Biblical references we have been referring to here about faith and works.

He doesn't say he totally agrees with McArthur but that he's closer to the LDS doctrine than the opposite is.

He does explain it a lot better than I can. Thank you for that.

Do you agree or disagree with what he says? How about the Biblical references about faith and works?

[Hemidakota]

It is Jeff way of 'beating around the bush' without insulting both camps.

No offense to Jeff, but prayer is the key for truth after we researched and pondered it. I use to read his material prior to my conversion and now, I wish he would find the same.

[Andrew777]

Yep, because in Catholisim the Pope is God so to speak and given the keys to heaven and hell and whatever he says it becomes dogma But purgatory was preached all these years.

The bible becomes a second athority to them...Tradition and the pope are above God's word. Like many faiths our their.

If ragging on Mormons makes people upset here you'll rag on Catholics instead and mis-characterize them, great! It's a sin to slander Mormons or Catholics. You know every Christian doesn't have to believe exactly as you do and follow your particular brand of Christianity to be saved. This is a big difference in Mormonism and some forms of Christianity. Christ died for all of us, not just his tiny group of chosen elite and elect!

[lostnfound]

If ragging on Mormons makes people upset here you'll rag on Catholics instead and mis-characterize them, great! It's a sin to slander Mormons or Catholics. You know every Christian doesn't have to believe exactly as you do and follow your particular brand of Christianity to be saved. This is a big difference in Mormonism and some forms of Christianity. Christ died for all of us, not just his tiny group of chosen elite and elect!

I'm not ragging on catholics. Some of my closest dearest friends are catholics. One can point out a dogma of a church with ragging on its people.

[lostnfound]

What is the name of the book?

The gospel according to Jesus" John mcarthur.

you can even google him.

[lostnfound]

But even after all the faith and change and devotion....and even on our best days we are all tempted from the adversary or satan to make sinful choices. And so we make mistakes. We sin. Even though we know it isn't right. What do we do then? Because of cleanliness is disrupted and only clean things can enter into the presence of God. We must repent and make it right again....and Christ thru his grace, cleanses us again. This is a life long process of continual course corrections. We won't stop being tempted just because we believe in Christ. In fact, the temptations may increase. And because all of us will make mistakes throughout the course of our lives, the atonement is always there. That is a tremendous message of hope! The key is choosing it. Many know what is right, and don't choose it. And they will be judged against their knowledge. IF my son steals, I know he knows better, and I hold him to that standard. God does too.

Here is the post i was looking for to reference romans chapter 6. I completely agree with you. But remember earlier when I gave the definitions of justifican santification..etc..???

Once you are justified unto righteousiness by Faith then a continual santification happens..remember when paul talked about "I try to do the right things..I want to do the right things..but I constantly find myself doing what is wrong?" He was absoutly correct. and God tells us in his word when we repent he is quick to forgive us. He tells us to be like him and that we can have victory over sin because now we have the Holy spirit living inside of us. Will we ever be like him? No...we can become more and more like his character over time but we will never Be him..we will never become God ..but that is another topic: :)

[lostnfound]

I have read some of the website and so far I agree with what it says, and it shows the same sort of Biblical references we have been referring to here about faith and works.

He doesn't say he totally agrees with McArthur but that he's closer to the LDS doctrine than the opposite is.

He does explain it a lot better than I can. Thank you for that.

Do you agree or disagree with what he says? How about the Biblical references about faith and works?

you are right. he doesn't totally agree with mcarthur but just closer to his views then hodges. I don't agree with Jeff. Obviously. You really have to read the book without a commentary to understand what mcarthur was saying. And he can explain much better then I can. Jeff is obviously in my opinion saying you know what lds this is why I can't agree with this because it contridicts lds theology. Which it does. The biblical refrences in regards to faith/work..which ones are you referring to?

[WillowTheWhisp]

you are right. he doesn't totally agree with mcarthur but just closer to his views then hodges. I don't agree with Jeff. Obviously. You really have to read the book without a commentary to understand what mcarthur was saying. And he can explain much better then I can. Jeff is obviously in my opinion saying you know what lds this is why I can't agree with this because it contridicts lds theology. Which it does. The biblical refrences in regards to faith/work..which ones are you referring to?

What contradicts LDS theology?

There is much about faith and works but here's a bit I particularly liked:

The apparent conflict between Paul and other writers was addressed by James E. Talmage in his book, Articles of Faith, pp.480-481 (footnote 3):

Faith Includes Works -- By isolating certain passages of scripture and regarding them as though they are complete in themselves some readers have assumed inconsistency if not contradiction to exist. Paul has been misrepresented as a proponent of the sufficiency of faith without works, and James has been cited in opposition. Compare Rom. 4:25; 9:11; Gal. 2:16; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 3:5, with James 1:22, 23; 2:14-26. Paul specifies the outward forms and ceremonies of the Mosaic law, which had been superseded by the higher requirements of the Gospel, as unessential works. James speaks of actual effort and effective deeds as the works that result from true faith in God and His requirements. But after all, the apparent differences lie in the words and not in the spirit or the fact. The following note by Elder J.M. Sjodahl of the Church Historian's Office is instructive and in point: "If we comprehend fully the meaning in which the authors of the scriptures use the word 'faith' we shall see that there is no difference in meaning between true faith and works of faith. In the Bible the two terms mean the same thing. James does not contradict Paul. For, to 'believe' is to live by the laws of the gospel.

[lostnfound]

What contradicts LDS theology?

There is much about faith and works but here's a bit I particularly liked:

mcarthur contridicts lds theology. He does not say that he agrees with lds doctrine at all.

[Misshalfway]

I am sorry Lost. If you don't mind, are you here to learn about our doctrine....or refute it?

[lostnfound]

What contradicts LDS theology?

There is much about faith and works but here's a bit I particularly liked:

Yeah, I don't think is any contridiction in these references. A true saving faith will produce works..but works does not justify you..only faith..

James and paul did not disagree in the slightest..

:):):)

as far as to your other question. I posted orginally to get some questions answered..which I have a great deal. Thank you to those that responded to my original post in great clarity.

and any other thread I proposed a question about.

And then this thread john 3:16 thread took a life of its own and other things got brought up. but I had to clarify works/faith..The topic was too serious of an issue for me to just ignore.:)

[Misshalfway]

I appreciate your sincere attitude. Thanks for the dialogue.

[kona0197]

If this is the case now then I retract my statement.....sorry!

No worries! :)

[kona0197]

I am sorry Lost. If you don't mind, are you here to learn about our doctrine....or refute it?

Agreed...

[Adeipho]

The book of mormon was written by a man..so that is huge in understanding what lds does with this scripture verse. do they add to scripture through a man or some other way explain this verse?

also in regards to mary..under lds teaching wouldn't she be in heaven? any insights would be great.

Um the Book of Mormon as well as the Bible were both written by man...or more correctly, "men", namely Prophets, Seers, and Revelators. However, the Book of Mormon has one advantage over the Bible in that the Bible has been translated again and again and again by many many people. And each time stuff was left out or changed. We know this for a fact by many of those who were doing the translating own account.

The Book of Mormon was translated from original language into English by one single man. What? You thought Joe Smith wrote the book? Oh heavens no. He translated it.

Thank you. Im here all week

[lostnfound]

Um the Book of Mormon as well as the Bible were both written by man...or more correctly, "men", namely Prophets, Seers, and Revelators. However, the Book of Mormon has one advantage over the Bible in that the Bible has been translated again and again and again by many many people. And each time stuff was left out or changed. We know this for a fact by many of those who were doing the translating own account.

The Book of Mormon was translated from original language into English by one single man. What? You thought Joe Smith wrote the book? Oh heavens no. He translated it.

Thank you. Im here all week

you are correct..what is more correct to say and how i should have worded it in the first place was the bible was inspired by God and book of mormon was founded by One man who was to align it's teaching with the word of God the most historically correct book on the face of the earth

[Adeipho]

you are correct..what is more correct to say and how i should have worded it in the first place was the bible was inspired by God and book of mormon was founded by One man who was to align it's teaching with the word of God the most historically correct book on the face of the earth

have you read the book of mormon? because if you do you will notice how a lot of the books are began with the writer speaking about how the Lord is inspireing them on what to write and what not to write about.

the book of mormon was written in the same way the bible was. the difference is that the book of mormon was written in the old days but for us in the latter days. it is the other branch. both books are required. the bible doesnt have all the answers and neither does the book of mormon. but together they do have the entire gospel of Christ.

[skalenfehl]

you are correct..what is more correct to say and how i should have worded it in the first place was the bible was inspired by God and book of mormon was founded by One man who was to align it's teaching with the word of God the most historically correct book on the face of the earth

You cannot prove that just as I cannot prove the Bible was inspired of God. I contend and testify that the Book of Mormon was written by prophets called of God on another continent apart from Israel. Both books were written by men called of God and both are inspired of God.