Why would I choose not to accept the gospel?

[darrel]

Alma Chapter 5 has a very good discourse on what we must do. Also Alma 34:24 is very clear on this. "For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors."

I think it is very clear that we must be willing to change now and not procrastinate our "mighty change".

The Lord knows each of our hearts and will judge us on our willingness to follow him in faith. "For I the Lord am bound when ye do what I say but when ye do not what I say ye have no promise."

I personally would not want to take a chance and wait until the next life to be convinced that the gospel is true. I believe we have evidence enough on which to build our faith in the truth of the gospel. Those who choose not to accept it may do so at their own peril.

Alma 5:36 "For behold, the time is at hand that whosoever bringeth forth not good fruit, or whosoever doeth not the works of righteousness, the same have cause to wail and mourn."

[rameumptom]

The warnings in the Book of Mormon to not put off our time to repent, is just that. Not all people will have the exact opportunity in this life to repent. For those who live as decent a life as they can with the knowledge given, they will be given every opportunity in the Spirit World to hear and accept the gospel. This applies to all people, whether they've heard the gospel or not. D&C 138, the vision of the Spirit World by President Joseph F. Smith, teaches us that in the Spirit World the gospel is preached correctly to all people, including the saints!

30 But behold, from among the righteous, he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to all the spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead.

31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would repent of their sins and receive the gospel.

32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets.

33 These were taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands,

34 And all other principles of the gospel that were necessary for them to know in order to qualify themselves that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

35 And so it was made known among the dead, both small and great, the unrighteous as well as the faithful, that redemption had been wrought through the sacrifice of the Son of God upon the cross.

36 Thus was it made known that our Redeemer spent his time during his sojourn in the world of spirits, instructing and preparing the faithful spirits of the prophets who had testified of him in the flesh;

37 That they might carry the message of redemption unto all the dead, unto whom he could not go personally, because of their rebellion and transgression, that they through the ministration of his servants might also hear his words....

57 I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal life, continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption, through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead.

58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,

59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation.

So we see that all will be preached to. Almost all will become heirs of salvation, even the basic, run-of-the-mill rebellious sinner.

[rameumptom]

When we enter death and the spirit realm, we will have all of our conceptions, preconceptions, ideas, beliefs, addictions, worries, hopes and fears. Will death alter or modify it? Of course it will. I can't believe that an atheist, who believes that at death he will only be worm food, will not have a significant change in belief.

But, many will still desire the things they spent years here enjoying, whether good or evil. Alma the Younger spent 3 days suffering in spirit prison (near death experience) prior to deciding to repent. He DID change, and in a dramatic way. But not everyone will change, or at least not change overnight.

That said, many will change. Many will suffer for a time in spirit prison, and become humbled enough to seek any escape from the guilt and pain. The only escape is repentance and faith on Jesus Christ. And it has to be complete and total surrender to Jesus's atonement. Insofar as we insist on clinging to sins and pride, we will still be subject to sufferings and "buffetings of Satan." At that point, the person is considered righteous enough to enter spirit world paradise (as Alma did), and enjoy the fruits of the spiritual life.

[Hemidakota]

I was searching for more information about the Spirit Prison, and found this article at the mormon.org site. It discusses the Plan of Salvation and Life after Death. This one sentence struck me, as it is contrary to what I thought was true, and what many here have said on this thread as well.

It was my understanding that you took your personality to the spirit world. This is the first time I recall someone saying otherwise.

http://mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/basic-beliefs/heavenly-father-s-plan-of-salvation/life-after-death

You are correct. Let know one tell you otherwise. If one's character is of anger, evil, or pure love of Christ, then it will be the same.

[Hemidakota]

Alma Chapter 5 has a very good discourse on what we must do. Also Alma 34:24 is very clear on this. "For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors."

I think it is very clear that we must be willing to change now and not procrastinate our "mighty change".

My favorite talk subject - Alma 34. I, being one who went through that learning curve.

[rameumptom]

Mormon.Org states:

Death will not change your personality or your desire for good or evil. If you choose to follow Jesus Christ during your life on Earth, you will be at peace in the spirit world. Those who choose not to follow Christ and do not repent will be unhappy.

I think we need to be a little careful on how we read this statement. I totally agree with the concept that Death will not change our personality. However, events in spirit prison/paradise MAY and CAN change our desires for good or evil. And those who choose to not follow Christ Will be unhappy, but then we believe they can choose to follow him in the Spirit World and change a life in hell to a life in paradise.

It is often easy to parse a sentence or two the wrong way, if we read too much (or too little) into it.

[Hemidakota]

True. Changes can come through those afterlife events based on our choices that will be given.

[lilered]

I agree, but let us say for the sake of discussion. A person dies. On this earth they were carefree, live for the moment, could care less about Jesus Christ, and all they wanted to do was party and have fun. In short irresponsible.

The scriptures would indicate that in spirit prison, that same individual including all I have described will be taught the Gospel and be given a chance to acccept or reject it. Meantime, while this process takes place, it will not be a pleasant expierence for him, due to the suffering that will take place, as I understand it.

Another obstacle, will be overcoming his tendency to be irresponsible, the same as he was here on earth.

Bottom Line - Better to do it here on this earth, than wait until death is near.

[crytsprospect]

I don't think it would be unpleasant . You have the same feelings and habits but you might gain a better perspective with out all the trappings of the earth and it might be easier. I think it depends on the person how hard it will be.....

[sgallan]

On this earth they were carefree, live for the moment, could care less about Jesus Christ, and all they wanted to do was party and have fun. In short irresponsible.

That is the usual stereotype of somebody who doesn't believe as you do - since they don't they are somehow "bad". The more interesting senario is somebody who was carefree but still responsible, could care less about Jesus Christ,and didn't really party all that much, but had a heck of a good time, by doing a lot of really good things. What about that senario?

[Elphaba]

Death will not change your personality or your desire for good or evil. (emphasis mine)

It was my understanding that you took your personality to the spirit world. This is the first time I recall someone saying otherwise.

http://mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/basic-beliefs/heavenly-father-s-plan-of-salvation/life-after-death

Okay, I get it now. Sorry. I misunderstood when I initially read it.

Elphaba

[Guest User-Removed]

First, for those who don't know me well, I am an atheist, and while it is complicated, one of the reasons is I see no evidence of a god of any kind. This is despite my doing everything I could to gain a testimony.

(If anyone reading this is wont to tell me what I haven’t done, please don’t. I want to keep my conversation directed at my question.)

Additionally, despite people who think they know otherwise, I cannot choose to believe in a god I do not believe in. The lack of any gods is so obvious to me, I cannot force myself to believe otherwise.

I was raised in the Church, and was active until I was 25, at which point I had my name removed. I have a fairly good grasp of LDS doctrine, except for the teachings learned in the temple.

So here is what I do not understand:

Even though I am an atheist, if I were to die and end up in a supernatural “prison,” which if I remember correctly is not as dire as it sounds, and the gospel was being taught to me by exalted beings, why would I then choose not to accept it? After all, I would now have hard evidence there was a God and the LDS doctrines were true.

Additionally, if I remember correctly, I will have the opportunity to see Christ in person. And I guarantee you, if Christ were standing before me in heaven, then I would know He is the Christ, that the gospel is true, and would choose to accept it.

Why would I not? Why would anyone not?

Who would ever choose not to accept the LDS gospel in these circumstances?

Elphaba

Correct me if I'm wrong...But I think those like Elphaba who accept the Gospel here...then make Covenants in the Temple, but who later reject the Holy Ghost...I think the word "Perdition" comes to mind?

[Guest User-Removed]

True. Changes can come through those afterlife events based on our choices that will be given.

There is no Celestial "Ground Hog's Day"...we don't get to do it over and over and over...till we get it right...(although, there are times I wish we could <vbg>)

[VisionOfLehi]

I don't think so, Skip.

I don't think it's that easy to "reject" the Holy Ghost.

[skalenfehl]

Correct me if I'm wrong...But I think those like Elphaba who accept the Gospel here...then make Covenants in the Temple, but who later reject the Holy Ghost...I think the word "Perdition" comes to mind?

I don't believe Elphaba has been through the temple. I'm sure she doesn't qualify for perdition.

[Moksha]

I don't think it's that easy to "reject" the Holy Ghost.

I think you are right. I seem to remember that the term "sure knowledge" was involved somewhere and that standing up at testimony meeting and expressing your belief as true does not really constitute the degree of knowledge that is required for such a rejection to be adequate.

At least that is what I've been told.

[Guest User-Removed]

I don't believe Elphaba has been through the temple. I'm sure she doesn't qualify for perdition.

Skale...From her original post:

I was raised in the Church, and was active until I was 25, at which point I had my name removed. I have a fairly good grasp of LDS doctrine, except for the teachings learned in the temple.

Under full disclosure, I'm not attempting to be the arbiter of what is or isn't perditious, I'm merely commenting on the original post. Last time I checked, one needed a Recommend to get into the Temple. Anyone who has (or had) a Recommend knows the steps involved to get one.

I'm sure with all things, there are extenuating circumstances, and I'm certainly not here to label Elphaba a Daughter of Perdition...Heck I'm having too much fun labeling Ed Decker a Son of Perdition...<VBG>

The bottom line to me is this...In the end, we're here to workout our own salvation. How we do it is up to us, I was merely commenting on posts that I've read and will continue to read.

[Guest User-Removed]

I don't think so, Skip.

I don't think it's that easy to "reject" the Holy Ghost.

Read her posts VOL...She's rejected God...

[HiJolly]

Correct me if I'm wrong...But I think those like Elphaba who accept the Gospel here...then make Covenants in the Temple, but who later reject the Holy Ghost...I think the word "Perdition" comes to mind?

Well, maybe in a 'micro' sense, if they keep it up and don't change. But I think 99.9% of the endowed still don't know enough for the BIG denial.

HiJolly

[HiJolly]

Read her posts VOL...She's rejected God...

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think I'd describe it thusly:

She's rejected any conception of God she can think of.

Whaddya think, Elphaba?

HiJolly

[rameumptom]

Originally Posted by MyDogSkip View Post

Correct me if I'm wrong...But I think those like Elphaba who accept the Gospel here...then make Covenants in the Temple, but who later reject the Holy Ghost...I think the word "Perdition" comes to mind?

I disagree. It is doubtful Elphaba has received the total witness of Christ, nor has she totally turned from God by shedding innocent blood. The only mortal we know about that definitely has become a son of perdition was Cain. In 6000 years and billions of people that is a very low number that have definitely fallen completely from grace.

There's a huge difference between rejecting the Holy Ghost and denying the Holy Ghost. Elder McConkie explained (as did Joseph Smith) that to qualify for Son of Perdition, one must receive a fullness of the Priesthood in the Temple, then receive a complete witness of Christ, then choose to love and follow Satan, as did Cain. Remember that Cain gloried in being called "Master Mahan", and believing that in killing Abel he was "truly free."

Elphaba comes nowhere near such attitude. She may not believe in God, but she has not rejected the goodness in her life, nor has she turned to worship Satan and commit murder. Finally, she most likely has not had a full witness of the Savior - otherwise she probably would not be an atheist.

[Moksha]

She's rejected any conception of God she can think of.

Whaddya think, Elphaba?

HiJolly

I can't speak for Elf, but I suspect it is our job to love them coming and going and that any thought of another's eternal fate is between them and the Almighty and as such, it is beyond our purpose.

[Elphaba]

Correct me if I'm wrong...But I think those like Elphaba who accept the Gospel here...then make Covenants in the Temple, but who later reject the Holy Ghost...I think the word "Perdition" comes to mind?

I never really accepted the gospel, nor did I ever go through the temple.

The following are three definitions of "Sons (Women?) of Pedition, as well as a link to each reference so that you can verify what I have posted. All three are from lds.org, an official site of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. (All bolded words are my emphases.)

1. ". . . (last line) In addition to the degrees of glory, there is a place of no glory, called perdition, reserved for those who commit the unpardonable sin. "

http://scriptures.lds.org/bd/d/26

2. "Perdition. Some people will not be worthy to dwell in any kingdom of glory. They will be called "the sons of perdition" and will have to "abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory" (D&C 76:32; 88:24). This will be the state of "those who know [God's] power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy [God's] power" (D&C 76:31; see also D&C 76:30, 32–49).

http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=bbd508f54922d010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=d1ef9daac5d98010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____

3. The followers of Satan who will suffer with him in eternity. Sons of perdition include those who followed Satan and were cast out of heaven for rebellion during premortality, and2 those who were permitted to be born to this world with physical bodies but then served Satan and turned utterly against God. Those in this second group will be resurrected from the dead but will not be redeemed from the second (spiritual) death and cannot dwell in a kingdom of glory (D&C 88: 32, 35).

None of them is lost but the son of perdition, John 17: 12. It is impossible to renew them again unto repentance, Heb. 6: 4-6 (Heb. 10: 26-29).

Mercy hath no claim on that man and his final doom is never-ending torment, Mosiah 2: 36-39. He is as though there was no redemption made, Mosiah 16: 5. Those who deny Christ’s miracles to get gain shall become like the son of perdition, 3 Ne. 29: 7. They will receive no forgiveness in this world or the next, D&C 76: 30-34 (D&C 84: 41; 132: 27). They are the only ones who will not be redeemed from the second death, D&C 76: 34-48. Sons of perdition deny the Holy Spirit after receiving it, D&C 76: 35. Sons of perdition deny the Son after the Father has revealed him, D&C 76: 43. Cain shall be called Perdition, Moses 5: 22-26.

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/gs/s/82?sr=1

I have bolded the sentences that explain what I must do to become a "Son (Woman) of Perdition. I have neither attempted, nor completed, even one of them.

I hope my links to what the Sons of Perdition are is helpful.

Elphaba

[Elphaba]

Skale...From her original post:

I was raised in the Church, and was active until I was 25, at which point I had my name removed. I have a fairly good grasp of LDS doctrine, except for the teachings learned in the temple.

I did not write: "except for the teachings I learned in the temple."

Therefore, my sentence, as written, is perfectly clear that the reason I did not learn the teachings of the temple is because I have never been through the temple.

". . . and I'm certainly not here to label Elphaba a Daughter of Perdition.

In a previous post you wrote: But I think those like Elphaba. . . . I think the word "Perdition" comes to mind?

That is labeling me.

Elphaba

[Elphaba]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think I'd describe it thusly:

She's rejected any conception of God she can think of.

Whaddya think, Elphaba?

HiJolly

Yes, HiJolley, that explains my atheism quite well.

My only concern is the word "reject." If you mean I have "rejected" God, believing He is real, that is not correct. But I don't think this is what you meant.

If you mean I "reject the concept" of a god, then you are correct, and have explained it quite well.

Thank you for understanding, and getting it right.

Elphaba