Adam formed of the dust - Redux

[THIRDpersonviewer]

Here is a definition of "dust" in Moses 6:59. In my opinion and feeling, this refers to all the references in the creation stories.

58 Therefore I give unto you a commandment, to teach these things freely unto your children, saying:

59 That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory;

60 For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified;

(added the other two scriptures for context and doctrinal background)

To me this denotes some sort of birthing process.

This is probably one of the most complicated speculations. This means to me that the Lord has not revealed it unto man. I'll list a number of theories that keep popping into my head and then denounce them(if they are wrong according to my knowledge).

1. Adam and Eve were born into this world from Heavenly Parents. False, because birth is a function of mortality. It is clear if one reads the story of Genesis, then Moses, then Abraham. Also birth requires blood. God has a body of flesh and bones.

2. Adam and Eve were born on a different planet and then brought here. False, because they are subject to the time of the planet, the mortality of the planet they were born into, and the "opposition of sin to the truth" from that planet. There are a few others, but they aren't coming to mind. They could not be mortal then become immortal then become mortal again. All things have one fall. This is to experience opposition to receive the higher reward.

3. Adam and Eve were formed from the dust. Abraham seems to explain this clearer. Read chapters 4 and 5 in context of itself and the spirit of what it is teaching. Read it in relation to the end of chapter 3. What is ultimately said, is that man was formed or organized for a purpose. Then they were fed and life grew from their creation. To me it makes sense that all things, grass, plants, animals and man, were all created and left lifeless. Then things were given life in its own way. For plants it required rain, for man it required breathing life into the nostrils(also for plants). Ultimately the spirit which was created prior(Moses 3:5) was placed into their "lifeless beings," or all things which had been created spiritual before physical had their souls united to be ready to be tested. Another quick synopsis of this is, all things were created, organized, established or planned prior to actual life coming into existence. Then something occurred so that they did have life, and thus life begins. Also, dust would mean elements in this case and thus there was an organization of these elements which were formed into a matching, supporting tabernacle of clay for the spirit. Hydrogen, carbon, oxygen, and nitrogen(maybe a couple others) make up most of the elements on the planet(including atmosphere and oceans).(That is what my organic chemistry teacher said last semester if I heard him right)

4. Adam and Eve were part of a chain of Neanderthals, denoting pre-Adamites and evolution. FAlSE!!! Evolution is a false creed and belief of anti-God men. These are the works of radical, faithless men. There is no evidence from revealed religion to support evolution predating Adam. There may be evolutionary processes that occur today, such as Natural Selection which occurs on a daily basis, however there is no way possible to harmonize the simple basic truths of the plan of Salvation, the Creation, the Fall of Adam, and the Atonement with the Heresy that is Evolution.

The Earth was created in a terrestrial state. It was created good. It was created along the same line that our pre-mortal existence is on. One of purity and innocence, and one without sin. There was NO death, mortality, sickness, pain, or shame. Without death, things do not evolve in the physical realm. With no birth there cannot be progression or changes in DNA or other mutations that carry over to other things. All things as far as life is concerned began when life was breathed into the creations and organizations of the gods.(according to Abraham's record). Since this is the case and dependent on whether mutations could occur(they shouldn't). Until Adam fell, all things would remain in the state that they were in. One of innocence and purity and one of obedience. Therefore mutations could not occur and there could be no changes to the creations.

So what does this mean? Evolution and Religion are not in harmony with each other. They are opposites of each other. If a person adheres to one, then by principle, he or she cannot hold to the other. Man cannot serve two masters for he will either hold to the one and despise the other or love the one and hate the other. They conflict and we should stay away from false doctrines such as these.

About the supposed proof that evolution exists? Well, there is none. Basic principle of statistics. A person who is given a set of data, CANNOT use it to predict what happens outside of the data set. That means, in evolution, we cannot predict things outside the sphere of data that we have. So what do we use to predict? Carbon-dating. How do we know the age of carbon? ......???.......?????.......?!?!?!?!?! WE DO NOT KNOW!!!! We know it is the fundamental building blocks of life and we can determine half-lives and so on. We only know the process of data from when we form pure carbon and then measure it's rate of decay currently. If we then use it's half-life, to jump outside of the range of data, we get a proportion and result that is not valid. What is also to say that we know the time that the carbon was created, to know what catalysts might have been involved, if there were any variables such as temperature and pressure. There is no plausible way to even predict these things in the many, possible varying circumstances, especially when the experiment is done in a controlled environment where circumstances are under the person's control. There are just too many unknowns in this regard.

Again, Evolution is one of the greatest heresy's ever devised by the adversary. It is so easy to believe, and yet so false. It denies the creation power of God, which is one of His attributes. By denying one of His attributes, you deny who He is. When you deny who He is, you deny who you are as a son of God(with a lot of other things). Then you become subject to the devil and his angels, because you do not believe in your potential or the gifts of God and inherently choose the devil over God.(This is the nature of all heresies and false doctrines)

5. There are no more theories that I can think of that seem plausible.

Now, I have thought about this a lot. I never sat down to write all them down and in an organized manner, until now. I must say, number 3 seems so right. It also is in harmony, as far as I am aware, with the Prophet Joseph Smith and his conclusions. Someone mentioned that Brigham Young and Joseph Smith didn't agree in this area of how Adam truly came to be in this world, but I side with Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith, it seems, every time I study is always right. And why not? He is the head of this dispensation. I can look at things I learn from modern prophets and apostles, who say brilliantly words of truth. Then I go back and see where Joseph Smith had already said it. I get this feeling that Joseph Smith taught every single part and aspect of the gospel in his teachings. If we study and learn from him, we gain insight from one who has seen into the Celestial Kingdom, who knew the mysteries of God, who knew the truth and would not deny it. He was murdered in cold blood. His life, works, and testimony were sealed with that martyred blood. Thanks be to God that a humble, but bold boy of fourteen had the faith to receive an answer to a prayer that rocked the foundations of the world. That because of what he did, I am here enjoying the happiness of the gospel.

[THIRDpersonviewer]

What if they found the bones of people that lived before when Adam would have lived?

They would not.

[MaidservantX]

Do you think there were any people before Adam?

Yes, I do. Here on this earth and also throughout the universe/multi-verse/meta-verse. (However, I would not state this as a church teaching; it is my personal conclusion.)

[MaidservantX]

Depends of which creation account to believe. The one in Genesis 1 or the one in Genesis 2.

It is my understanding that they work together. I am personally satisfied as to their reconciliation.

[Adeipho]

Yes, I do. Here on this earth and also throughout the universe/multi-verse/meta-verse. (However, I would not state this as a church teaching; it is my personal conclusion.)

Really? Who was here before Adam? And lets not go down the Darwanian trail. After all we can all see for ourselves that Darwin's theory has enough to show intraspecies mutations and adaptations, but has just above zero evidence or data to support interspecies evolution...ie monkey to man, or mouse to hippo.

So who was here before the "first" man?

[japacific]

THIRDperson viewer says there is no evidence for evolution, and says the only thing that makes sense is that man was made from the dust.

[Maya]

God created the earth for us humans. If there has been similar creations, who also were inteligent they have been here because Good needed them to be here... maybe to try out the athmosphere for us that are called humans.

God created the earth with his word, Jesus Christ who used His "best frends" to help him. At least I would do so if I had been given such a big task.

When you look at the timeline of creation... NOTHIONG was created at the wrong time, but everything was not to survive to the end. Stronger speaces sirvive weeker distinquish. Man killed many to their distinquision, in his greed... or almost did. Even dinosauruses were here excactly at the right time...and fortunately we do not need to live with Rexes...

What comes to older bones than human, well WHO knows how long ago Adam and Eve really were created?? I red somewhere that with closer exsaination of the Nearndendal person that was found some time ago they now have noticed that it do not need to mean that people were so apelike, but her scelleton was twisted because of reumatism... we find new things all the time new things that give us new information ands shows the oldto be wrong.

So IF there have been someone here and died before Adam and Eva...I am sure we will get a good explanation to that one day!:)

[MaidservantX]

Really? Who was here before Adam? And lets not go down the Darwanian trail. After all we can all see for ourselves that Darwin's theory has enough to show intraspecies mutations and adaptations, but has just above zero evidence or data to support interspecies evolution...ie monkey to man, or mouse to hippo.

So who was here before the "first" man?

I have a variety of ideas that go in a few different directions. I still consider myself to be in the process of learning (about the origin of the human body). Something that is very important to me is to not conclude something that contradicts what the prophets teach nor what is to be found in the scriptures. So sometimes I hold my various ideas in suspension or just as a quirk of my nature until I can find a reconciliation with what my Father in heaven has stated at face value, or until I learn more so that an idea I may have held at one time I would then forsake. I am not going to share all of my ideas here, I'm well aware that much of what I thinking about on this subject would not be well accepted by . .. nearly everyone.

One of the directions I go in is that Adam was the first man on this earth (duh, right?); but that still leaves the idea (for me) that human births took place on other creations of God before Adam was (born) here.

I can safely and emphatically say that theory of e (my term :)) does not convince me at all in any way.

I am not going to answer your question of who was here before Adam or who the first man was -- like I said, I'm not comfortable sharing everything I think about it.

[lostnfound]

I have a variety of ideas that go in a few different directions. I still consider myself to be in the process of learning (about the origin of the human body). Something that is very important to me is to not conclude something that contradicts what the prophets teach nor what is to be found in the scriptures. So sometimes I hold my various ideas in suspension or just as a quirk of my nature until I can find a reconciliation with what my Father in heaven has stated at face value, or until I learn more so that an idea I may have held at one time I would then forsake. I am not going to share all of my ideas here, I'm well aware that much of what I thinking about on this subject would not be well accepted by . .. nearly everyone.

One of the directions I go in is that Adam was the first man on this earth (duh, right?); but that still leaves the idea (for me) that human births took place on other creations of God before Adam was (born) here.

I can safely and emphatically say that theory of e (my term :)) does not convince me at all in any way.

I am not going to answer your question of who was here before Adam or who the first man was -- like I said, I'm not comfortable sharing everything I think about it.

That leaves me intrigued! :)

[Hemidakota]

Tom, my computer is up this morning and find some articles that dealt with the elements.

[Guest tomk]

Tom, my computer is up this morning and find some articles that dealt with the elements.

Ok.

This thread is so seriously side-tracked now, I'm not sure I care one way or another.

[Hemidakota]

No problem...

In my humble opinion, as our own technology now reveals today, we can clone a human being and various organic forms of his/her bodily attributes [eyes, skin, cells, ears, nose, and organs]. If humans can achieve this level of understanding, which isn't one percent of GOD's perfect knowledge, why is it so hard for HIM to use the organic elements to fashion a human body from the earth? Not hard at all. How many times as the Lord, would use the earth materials to fashion, to multiply, or to correct human defects in His ministries? Then why again is so hard for GOD to do the same?

If we do not believe that Adam was not created from the elements of the Earth, the next postulation or belief would be that of President Young and Elder Pratt, that GOD used HIS bodily progeny life giving attributes, along with HER help, born both Adam and Eve into this immortal world. The problem with that belief or postulation, then the phrase – ‘The Only Begotten’ of the FATHER is now voided. Both Adam and Eve could be termed as the first mortal living offspring from our Heavenly Parents. That makes no sense at all. I am wondering if President Young was thinking this or perhaps they were using the statement of not the first mortal flesh of this world due to they were both brought here from the home world. Still, the term ‘The Only Begotten’ would again be voided.

The prophet Joseph Fielding Smith was the only three prophets that were outspoken on this subject in our days [others were, Prophet Joseph Smith, and President Young]. No other prophet ventured outside of the basic gospel principles for one reason or another. Prophet Joseph Smith concurred with Abraham and Moses, both Adam and Eve was created from the Elements of the Earth.

Now, the question remains on were where they created? I would put forth, as instructed in the Temple, not in the garden.

[Hemidakota]

This is what I call 'collaboration of Intelligences' as we search for truth.

Ok! Another surprise here. Let me back off, on with respect to which prophets are considered outspoken on this subject. I just found President Joseph F. Smith, who believes that Moses 6:59 [see also 2 Nephi 9:6], means a living mortal man/woman was an offspring of Heavenly Parents.

59 That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory;

President Smith, stated: "Adam, our earthly parent, was also born of woman, the same as Jesus and you and I." [speech, 7 Dec 1913, printed in the Deseret News, 27 Dec 1918. Section 3 page 7]

Another opinion given by another brethren in the church, Moses was not allow to teach or expound upon this subject. [Moses 1:30-31, 36-40]

30 And it came to pass that Moses called upon God, saying: aTell• me, I pray thee, why these things are so, and by what thou madest them?

31 And behold, the glory of the Lord was upon Moses, so that Moses stood in the presence of God, and talked with him aface• to face. And the Lord God said unto Moses: For mine own bpurpose• have I made these things. Here is cwisdom• and it remaineth in me.

36 And it came to pass that Moses spake unto the Lord, saying: Be merciful unto thy servant, O God, and atell• me concerning this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, and also the heavens, and then thy servant will be content. 37 And the Lord God spake unto Moses, saying: The aheavens•, they are many, and they cannot be numbered unto man; but they are numbered unto me, for they are mine.

38 And as one earth shall pass away, and the heavens thereof even so shall another come; and there is no aend• to my works, neither to my words.

39 For behold, this is my awork• and my bglory•—to bring to pass the cimmortality• and deternal• elife• of man.

40 And now, Moses, my son, I will speak unto thee concerning this earth upon which thou standest; and thou shalt awrite• the things which I shall speak.

41 And in a day when the children of men shall esteem my words as anaught• and btake• many of them from the cbook• which thou shalt write, behold, I will raise up another dlike• unto thee; and they shall be ehad• again among the children of men—among as many as shall believe.

42 (These words were aspoken• unto Moses in the mount, the name of which shall not be known among the children of men. And now they are spoken unto you. Show them not unto any except them that believe. Even so. Amen.)

If that being case, as he stated, then it was reserved for the Millennium [D&C 101:32-34]

32 Yea, verily I say unto you, in that aday• when the Lord shall come, he shall breveal• all things— 33 Things which have passed, and ahidden• things which no man knew, things of the bearth•, by which it was made, and the purpose and the end thereof—

34 Things most precious, things that are above, and things that are beneath, things that are in the earth, and upon the earth, and in heaven.

Even Elder B.H. Roberts changed his views, concerning that Adam was not a molded brick, fashioned out of the earth when he sided with President Young.

"We are all 'formed of the dust of the ground, though instead of being 'molded as a brick we are brought forth by the natural laws of procreation; so also was Adam and his wife in some older world." B.H. Roberts. The Gospel and Man's Relationship To Deity, p. 269

However, the counterpoint still rests upon Joseph Smith who translated the correction in JST Luke, chapter 3:45

"...and of Adam, who was formed of God, and the first man upon the earth."

More later...

[blazingcondor]

Hi, I am new to this forum so I hope I can contribute in a positive way. I have pondered and been asked this question many times by many people and found the following, I hope someone may find them useful.

The First Presidency: Joseph F. Smith, Anthon H. Lund, and Charles W. Penrose as quoted in Melvin A. Cook and M. Garfield Cook, Science and Mormonism, p. 156.)

"'Our father Adam -- that is our earthly father -- the progenitor of the human race of man, stands at the head being 'Michael the Archangel, the Ancient of Days,' and that he was not fashioned from earth life and adobe but begotten by his Father in Heaven.'"

Joseph Fielding Smith, Man: His Origin and Destiny, pp. 276-77

"Does it not appear to you that it is a foolish and ridiculous notion that when God created this earth he had to begin with a speck of protoplasm, and take millions of years, if not billions, to bring conditions to pass by which his sons and daughters might obtain bodies made in his image? Why not the shorter route and transplant them from another earth as we are taught in the scriptures."

Bruce R. McConkie, “Eve and the Fall,” in Woman (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1979), pp. 60-61.

For those whose limited spiritual understanding precludes a recitation of all the facts, the revealed account, in figurative language, speaks of Eve being created from Adam's rib. (Moses 3:21-25.) A more express scripture, however, speaks of “Adam, who was the son of God, with whom God, himself, conversed.” (Moses 6:22.) In a formal doctrinal pronouncement, the First Presidency of the Church (Joseph F. Smith, John R. Winder, and Anthon H. Lund) said that “all who have inhabited the earth since Adam have taken bodies and become souls in like manner,” and that the first of our race began life as the human germ or embryo that becomes a man. (See Improvement Era, November 1909, p. 80.)

Christ is universally attested in the scriptures to be the Only Begotten. At this point, as we consider the “creation” of Adam, and lest there be any misunderstanding, we must remember that Adam was created in immortality, but that Christ came to earth as a mortal; thus our Lord is the Only Begotten in the flesh, meaning into this mortal sphere of existence. Adam came to earth to dwell in immortality until the fall changed his status to that of mortality.

Those who have ears to hear will understand these things. All of us, however, must know and believe that when Adam and Eve were placed in the Garden of Eden, there was no death. They were immortal. Unless some change occurred they would live forever, retaining all the bloom, beauty, and freshness of youth. Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Orson Pratt, and our early brethren preached many sermons on this.

B.H. Roberts The Gospel and Man’s Relationship to Deity pg.268

The Prophet Joseph Smith is credited with having said that our planet was made up of the fragments of a planet which previously existed; some mighty convulsions disrupted that creation and made it desolate. Both its animal and vegetable life forms were destroyed. And when those convulsions ceased, and the rent earth was again consolidated, and it became desirable to replenish it, the work was begun by making a mist to rise, that it might descend in gentle rain upon the barren earth, that it might again be fruitful. Then came one of the sons of God to the earth--Adam. A garden was planted in Eden and the man placed in it, and there the Lord brought to him every beast of the field and every fowl of the air, and Adam gave names to them all. Afterwards was brought to Adam his wife, whom, since she was derived from man, he named woman; and she became his help-mate, his companion and the mother of his children. In this nothing is hinted at about man being made from the dust, and woman manufactured from a rib, a story which has been a cause of much perplexity to religious people, and a source of much impious merriment to reckless unbelievers. We are informed that the Lord God made every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb before it grew on our planet. As vegetation was created or made to grow upon some older earth, and the seeds thereof or the plants themselves were brought to our earth and made to grow, so likewise man and his helpmate were brought from some other world to our own, to people it with their children. And though it is said that the "Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground"-it by no means follows that he was "formed" as one might form a brick, or form the dust of this earth. We are all "formed" of the dust of the ground, though instead of being moulded as a brick we are brought forth by the natural laws of procreation; so also was Adam and his wife in some older world. And as for the story of the rib, under it I believe the mystery of procreation is hidden.

Joseph Fielding Smith, Man: His Origin and Destiny, pp. 276-77

"Does it not appear to you that it is a foolish and ridiculous notion that when God created this earth he had to begin with a speck of protoplasm, and take millions of years, if not billions, to bring conditions to pass by which his sons and daughters might obtain bodies made in his image? Why not the shorter route and transplant them from another earth as we are taught in the scriptures."

Joseph Fielding Smith: Doctrines of Salvation vol 1 p.74,76

This we know, and that will suffice until all things are revealed, the inhabitants of these worlds created by Jesus Christ, are begotten sons and daughters unto God. Life did not originate here. Man did not first come into existence here. We are told by our Father in heaven that man is eternal; that he has always existed, and that all life on this earth came from elsewhere. We may not be able to comprehend all this now, but the time will come in the providence of the Lord, when all these things shall be made known and we shall have knowledge in the fulness....

....We were all created untold ages before we were placed on this earth.

Joseph Fielding Smith: Doctrines of Salvation vol 1 p.139-140

LIFE TRANSPLANTED FROM OTHER EARTHS. I tell you, life did not commence upon this earth spontaneously. Its origin was not here. Life existed long before our solar system was called into being. The fact is, there never was a time when man-made in the image of God, male and female—did not exist. The Lord revealed to Joseph Smith the truth that man was also in the beginning with God. . . .

The Lord has given us the information regarding his creations, and how he has made many earths, for there never was a beginning, never was a time when man did not exist somewhere in the universe, and when the time came for this earth to be peopled, the Lord, our God, transplanted upon it from some other earth, the life which is found here. Man he created in his own image. If it were our privilege to go out and visit some of the other creations, other worlds in space, we should discover that they are peopled with beings who look like us, for they, too, are the offspring of God, and of the same race from whence we came. Perhaps they would be more exalted, but, nevertheless, they would be in the image of God, and so are we. Adam was not a "cave man," but perhaps the most nearly perfect man in form and feature to our Father and Creator....

....It is true that all life does come from the same source, but that is not the scum of the sea, a jellyfish or a pollywog. God, our Father, is the creator of life, and he placed life on this earth in varied forms, and also on other worlds. He will continue his work on this earth and upon other planets, or worlds, which will take the place of this earth when it has been exalted and gone on to its celestial glory. He will continue to bring to pass his purposes by peopling worlds and bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of his children.

Sorry for the long book, but if you find this helpful in your study, then enjoy.

[Hemidakota]

Welcome to forum....

[Guest tomk]

I wonder --- what substance could make an immortal being mortal????

Must have been SOME apple!!!! :)

[Dr T]

So who was here before the "first" man?

God. :)

[Hemidakota]

I wonder --- what substance could make an immortal being mortal????

Must have been SOME apple!!!! :)

No! It was the Fig. lol

How did the Lord replace or fix body ailments during His ministry?

[Hemidakota]

John 9: 11, 14 try this out for size...

[Guest tomk]

John 9: 11, 14 try this out for size...

Okay, I read it.

Interesting parallel -- but sheds no further light on my question.

I must not be ready for whatever knowledge you are trying to impart.

[Hemidakota]

Or perhaps water to wine...I would be asking how do we convert water to oil? LOL

Just elements being used and easily manipulated.

[Guest tomk]

Or perhaps water to wine...I would be asking how do we convert water to oil? LOL

Just elements being used and easily manipulated.

Oh yes -- I agree.

I think I know what happened, fundamentally, with the intelligences.

What I meant was -- at a higher level of organization -- what substance was it?

Think MACRO level, not micro.

[Hemidakota]

How complex is the eye itself?

[blazingcondor]

I wonder --- what substance could make an immortal being mortal????

Must have been SOME apple!!!! :)

Hi, I hope this would help:

Joseph Fielding Smith, Man, His Origin and Destiny, p.364

There is no blood in an immortal body, and when Adam transgressed the law and ate the fruit that had been forbidden there came a drastic change in his body and it was transformed from the condition where there was no death to a condition where it became subject to death, or mortality, and from that time forth blood was the life-giving fluid.

Journal of Discourses, 26 vols., 7:, p.254

Death had no dominion over his tabernacle: the principle of blood which flows in the mortal tabernacles of men did not exist in his immortal body; but his veins and arteries contained a fluid of a far purer nature than that of blood: in other words, they were filled with the spirit of life, which was calculated to preserve them in immortality. Though they partook of various kinds of fruit in the garden, yet there was no fruit in that garden, except one called the forbidden fruit, which would have the least tendency to destroy the principles of immortality that reigned within them. They were organized to endure, bodies and spirits united, millions of ages. By the transgression of that simple law given to them, they fell from immortality to mortality: their bodies partook of disease; the seeds of death were sown within them; and in the day that Adam eat thereof, (reckoning according to the Lord's time,) he passed away and returned to his mother dust.

[Hemidakota]

Why use the fig leave as a covering?