Is grace enough?

[Jenamarie]

And I agree that the "Christ never personally chastized it" argument doesn't hold Hemi. He also never said anything about homosexuality.

[HizWife625]

Just destroyed a city over it..................

JenaMarie....Hope you have a wonderful Mom's Day.

[Jenamarie]

Just destroyed a city over it..................

JenaMarie....Hope you have a wonderful Mom's Day.

Got me there. Yes, I'd say that's a pretty strong personal denouncement of homosexual behavior. Wonder why he didn't do the same thing to the polygamists.

And I hope you have a wonderful Mother's Day too. :)

[Hemidakota]

There was no city destroyed based on this Celestial princple.

[HizWife625]

JenaMaria..... thanks

Here is some reading materials from the book I mentioned a few posts ago.....

The question of polygamy in the Bible is an interesting one in that most people today view polygamy as immoral while the Bible nowhere explicitly condemns it. The first instance of polygamy / bigamy in the Bible was Lamech in Genesis 4:19, “Lamech married two women…” Several prominent men in the Old Testament were polygamists. Abraham, Jacob, David, Solomon, and others all had multiple wives. In 2 Samuel 12:8, God, speaking through the prophet Nathan, that if David’s wives and concubines were not enough, He would have given David even more. Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines (essentially wives of a lower status) according to 1 Kings 11:3. What are we to do with these instances of polygamy in the Old Testament? There are three questions that need to be answered. (1) Why did God allow polygamy in the Old Testament? (2) How does God view polygamy today? (3) Why did it change?

(1) Why did God allow polygamy in the Old Testament? The Bible does not specifically say why God allowed polygamy. The best anyone can do is “informed” speculation. There are a few key factors to consider. First, there has always been more women in the world than men. Current statistics show that approximately 50.5% of the world population are women, with men being 49.5%. Assuming the same percentages in ancient times, and multiplied by millions of people, there would be tens of thousands more women than men. Second, warfare in ancient times was especially brutal, with an incredibly high rate of fatalities. This would have resulted in an even greater percentage of women to men. Third, due to the patriarchal societies, it was nearly impossible for an unmarried woman to provide for herself. Women were often uneducated and untrained. Women relied on their fathers, brothers, and husbands for provision and protection. Unmarried women were often subjected to prostitution and slavery. Fourth, the significant difference between the number of women and men would have left many, many women in an undesirable (to say the least) situation.

So, it seems that God allowed polygamy to protect and provide for the women who could not find a husband otherwise. A man would take multiple wives and serve as the provider and protector of all of them. While definitely not ideal, living in a polygamist household was far better than the alternatives: prostitution, slavery, starvation, etc. In addition to the protection / provision factor, polygamy enabled a much faster expansion of humanity, fulfilling God’s command to “be fruitful and multiply, fill the earth” (Genesis 9:7). Men are capable of impregnating multiple women in the same time period…causing humanity to grow much faster than if each man was only able to produce one child each year.

(2) How does God view polygamy today? Even while allowing polygamy, the Bible presents monogamy as the plan which conforms most closely to God’s ideal for marriage. The Bible says that God’s original intention was for one man to be married to only one woman, “For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife (not wives); and they shall become one flesh (not multiple fleshes)” (Genesis 2:24). While Genesis 2:24 is describing what marriage is, rather than how many people are involved, the consistent use of the singular should be noted. In Deuteronomy 17:14-20, God says that the kings were not supposed to multiply wives (or horses or gold). While this cannot be interpreted as a command that the kings must be monogamous, it can be understood as declaring the having multiple wives causes problems. This can be clearly seen in the life of Solomon (1 Kings 11:3-4).

In the New Testament, 1 Timothy 3:2, 12 and Titus 1:6 give “the husband of one wife” in a list of qualifications for spiritual leadership. There is some debate as to what specifically this qualification means. Please read - What does the "husband of one wife" phrase in 1 Timothy 3:2 mean? Can a divorced man serve as a pastor, elder, or deacon?. The phrase could literally be translated “a one-woman man.” Whether or not this phrase is referring exclusively to polygamy, in no sense can a polygamist be considered a “one-woman man.” While these qualifications are specifically for positions of spiritual leadership, they should apply equally to all Christians. Should not all Christians be “above reproach ... temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money” (1 Timothy 3:2-4)? If we are called to be holy (1 Peter 1:16), and if these standards are holy for elders and deacons, then they are holy for all.

Ephesians 5:22-33, speaking of the relationship between husbands and wives, when referring to a husband (singular) always also refers to a wife (singular). “…for the husband is the head of the wife (singular) … He who loves his wife (singular) loves himself. For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife (singular), and the two will become one flesh … each one of you also must love his wife (singular) as he loves himself, and the wife (singular) must respect her husband (singular).” While a somewhat parallel passage, Colossians 3:18-19, refers to husbands and wives in the plural, it is clear that Paul is addressing all the husbands and wives among the Colossian believers, not stating that a husband might have multiple wives. In contrast, Ephesians 5:22-33 is specifically describing the marital relationship. If polygamy is allowable, the entire illustration of Christ’s relationship with His body (the church), and the husband-wife relationship, falls apart.

(3) Why did it change? It is not as much God disallowing something He previously allowed as it is God restoring marriage to His original intent. Even going back to Adam and Eve (not Eves), polygamy was not God’s original intent. God seems to have allowed polygamy to solve a problem, but it was God’s desire for the problem never to have occurred. In most modern societies, there is absolutely no need for polygamy. In most cultures today, women are able to provide for and protect themselves – removing the only “positive” aspect of polygamy. Further, most modern nations outlaw polygamy. According to Romans 13:1-7, we are to obey the laws that the government establishes. The only instance in which disobeying the law is permitted by Scripture is if the law contradicts God’s commands (Acts 5:29). Since God only allows for polygamy, and does not command it, a law prohibiting polygamy should be upheld.

Are there some instances in which the allowance for polygamy would still apply today? Perhaps…but it is unfathomable that there would be no other possible solution. Due to the “one flesh” aspect of marriage, the need for oneness and harmony in marriage, and the lack of any real need for polygamy, it is our firm belief that polygamy does not honor God and is not His design for marriage.

Recommended Resource: Bible Answers for Almost all Your Questions by Elmer Towns.

-

Like I said it is really a gray matter to me that I have not dug deep into.....It is my pesronal convication that marriage is between one man and one women....... We are currently reading in Genesis in our SS class........ In reality that was one messed up time compared to what we face today..........

No one really knows why God allows/disallows certain things........

[HizWife625]

Wanna just dtop the polygamy thing here? I don't think it will be very fruitful and will lead us no where................

[Jenamarie]

Agreed. Interseting snipit though, thanks for posting that. :)

[Hemidakota]

Reminder, Paul said to the Bishops to have ONLY ONE WIFE vice plural for a reason. I am currently studying the NT this morning.

However, I concur.

[HizWife625]

On the humerous side of that..... Why in the world would a man want more than one ? Isn't one hard enough to handle to begin with......... LOL ..... Take it in gest/stride.

[Hemidakota]

I surely don't. LOL

[Jenamarie]

My husband doesn't, but *I* sure could use the help!

[HizWife625]

Ditto..... 1 hubby, 4 kids, a dog and a new kitten....A few little fish too.....working full time plus, all in sports and sending one to college this year......UUUggghhhhh........

Hemi...... yout statement is evident of you having a precious wife...... Good for you....

[Traveler]

Just destroyed a city over it..................

JenaMarie....Hope you have a wonderful Mom's Day.

When we speak of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah I find it interesting that many remember the reason for Sodom but very few know or remember the problem of Gomorrah.

The Traveler

[Hemidakota]

There were four cities of the plain that was destroyed: Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboiim.

[Hemidakota]

Interesting speculation...by Elder Neal M. Maxwell

SUPPOSE someone had kept his impressions of Sodom on several scrolls which were later found. They might well contain such things as are on the pages to follow.

SELDOM does a whole city or society disappear without a trace. Yet this is what happened to four towns or cities (Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboiim) on the plains of Siddim around 1900-2000 B.C. The best-known of these sister cities was Sodom. We have some information in the scriptures about what happened, but even less information in secular records. Significantly, Jesus Christ confirmed both the existence and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah during his earthly ministry.

One can imagine the tremendous curiosity and excitement, therefore, that any additional information about the reasons for the destruction of this cluster of sister cities would create. There are, of course, no "Sodom Scrolls" to supply such information. But...

Suppose someone like Eliezer, Abraham's steward, had kept his cumulative impressions of Sodom on several scrolls. Suppose Elieser finally gave his scrolls to Lot for review, since Lot was, after all, the one whose experience was so firsthand. Suppose the scrolls were left in Lot's cave in the mountains near Zoar (the one little town of the five that God spared), for Lot dwelt in a cave in the mountains up out of Zoar.

No doubt, if such scrolls were later found, they would be known as "The Sodom Scrolls," and they might well contain such things as are on the speculative pages in the fictional revisitation to follow.

These fictitious scrolls and their content do take advantage of what we know about Sodom from the scriptures and from secular sources, modest as the amount of that information is. Efforts have been made in the style to blend in relevant quotations from scriptures that obviously emerged after Elieser's time; the scriptures so used either pertain to Sodom or involve timeless truths about human nature that are descriptive of things "as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come." (Both scriptural and secular sources in the scrolls are noted sequentially at the end of each scroll. Quotation marks and numbers are omitted to ease the passage of the eye. Those scriptural quotations with which Eliezer would have a personal familiarity are in quotation marks, however.)

Most importantly, the style of writing used assumes that Eliezer was a tutored steward and no ordinary helping hand around Abraham's household, for the brilliant and spiritual Abraham would need a fairly sophisticated steward. Any steward of Abraham with any kind of tenure would have had a most unusual life with many chances to see and observe many things.

The reader's understanding and patience are especially needed, however, as Elieser becomes the eyes, ears, and voice of this fictional revisitation of Sodom using scriptures and supposings.

The Savior has warned that his second coming will occur (1) just as did the flood in Noah's time and also (2) as the raining of fire and brimstone on Sodom—as a surprise (except to the very faithful). We would do well, therefore, to ponder the lessons of the past as well as the possible parallels between our own society and the society of Sodom, for Sodom was not just a place, but a way of life.

A modern prophet, President Spencer W. Kimball, has warned us:... . when toleration for sin increases, the outlook is bleak and Sodom and Gomorrah days are certain to return."

His predecessor, President Harold B. Lee, warned of the growing social acceptance of "that great sin of Sodom and Gomorrah... adultery: and beside this, the equally grievous sin of homosexuality, which seems to be gaining momentum with social acceptance in the Babylon of the world... "

Many today are as indecisive about the evils emerging around us—are as reluctant to renounce fully a wrong way of life—as was Lot's wife. Perhaps in this respect, as well as in the indicators of corruption of which sexual immorality is but one indicator, our present parallels are most poignant and disturbing. It was Jesus himself who said, "Remember Lot's wife." Indeed we should—and remember too all that the Savior implied with those three powerful words.

While it was tragic for Lot's wife to look back, for our generation a hard look back at Sodom could save us from impending tragedies!

[Hemidakota]

"The First Sodom Scroll"

I, Eliezer of Damascus, write as the blessed and tutored steward of Abraham with the hope that what I have written about the follies and fate of my neighbors in Sodom will be helpful to future generations. My master's example as a record keeper in Egypt and Canaan stirred me to write also.

I, Eliezer, have now served as the steward of Abraham for many years. I was with my master when his herdsmen and the herdsmen of Lot had strife. My wise master said to Lot, "For we be brethren," and offered Lot his choice between the well-watered plain of Jordan (or the Valley of Siddim) and Canaan. I marveled at my master's generosity because the plain was exceedingly fertile, even as Eden, the garden of the Lord.

My master, Abraham, is a man of mark and sway. Often have I heard him talk of his early days in the land of the Chaldeans. Even as a young man, he knew that there was greater happiness and peace and rest for him than was to be found in his homeland. He strongly desired to be one who possessed great knowledge, and to be a great follower of righteousness, and to be a father of many nations.

He recounted how his fathers had turned from righteousness to the worship of Elkenah and other false gods. He has spoken to me, too, about how the priests of Elkenah laid violence upon him, that they might slay him, and how he was rescued by the Lord. Oh, how often the human family has suffered from priestcraft!

Abraham is not only a generous, but he is a gracious man. He knew that his power and priesthood could not be used except by following the principles of righteousness. It mattered not to him whether he entertained angels or strangers; he was quick to give them succor, food, and water. Never have I seen anyone who has so much knowledge of so many things and yet who is also so humble. My master understands much about the stars and the heavens and yet he is ever generous and gracious to those on the earth. His righteousness is like a light which cannot be hid, for it shines forth as naturally and regularly as the sunshine.

Lot chose the plain and pitched his tent toward Sodom, while Abraham and his people dwelt in the land of Canaan. From that time I often went to inquire after the welfare of Lot (not long before Sodom was a city in its last throes of sin and wretchedness), I kept records on scrolls, which I now abridge and complete before delivering them to Lot for his pondering and keeping; yet Lot is full of remorse, and I know not how much he will treasure these scrolls.

I will but say that I would not have believed a people could become so wicked so quickly if I had not seen it myself—including the end, which, with my master, we saw from far away early one morning as the smoke rose from what was Sodom.

I would not have wanted my family to be reared in the place and among the people where Lot's family was reared, and I rejoiced exceedingly in the wisdom of my master, Abraham, in living safely separated from Sodom. Yet Abraham pleaded for the unrighteous therein, for he cared even for the sinner. Abraham was a light to all among whom he lived, for he could be in the world without becoming like the world. I have learned from him that there can be a zion wherever the pure in heart dwell, whether it be in the tents of one family or in a whole city.

I have set my reliance for a portion of the information contained here upon my acquaintance in Sodom, Cherazim, who when I visited the city would make known to me the growing wickedness of Sodom (sometimes recounting with a glee he did not seek to hide), which gave me a heavy heart, for Cherazim did not begin as an evil man.

I never went to Sodom after the first few years, except when I was required, and I was always exceedingly anxious to leave. This feeling was shared by the caravans that had to pass through Sodom or Gomorrah. Perhaps the reader has visited places where, when he came thither, his first feeling was an urgent desire to leave? For there was a stench about Sodom—not alone a stench which vexed the nostrils, but the heavy and oppressive feeling that comes from being immersed in sin on a large scale.

In the plain of Siddim there were four cities beside Sodom—Gomorrah, Admah, Zeboiim, and Zoar (Zoar was the smallest and also the one God later spared when Lot fervently petitioned God). These four lay near to the Dead Sea on a plain extremely fertile. Once each of the five cities had its own king, and all of these cities paid heavy tribute to a king named Chedorlaomer. But after thirteen years of such taxing and tributes, the cities rebelled. The rebellion was crushed by King Chedorlaomer, and he then took all the goods and food of Sodom and Gomorrah. Some inhabitants were also taken captive; Lot was among the captives.

Yet again did Lot's generous uncle, Abraham, make determination to help Lot. Even though Lot was held prisoner by a large victorious army, my master with but three hundred and eighteen men and brilliant stratagems followed the army well nigh to Damascus, my home, and made the rescue of the prisoners. Lot was ever grateful to my master, Abraham, for his being rescued from the Assyrians; other captives and Lot's goods were also rescued by Abraham's daring.

It may be that this earlier experience of being a conquered people did but hasten the hardness of the people of Sodom, for so often the bitterness of defeat shrivels the soul. The wise learn from their past, but the stubborn, by their lack of understanding, err endlessly.

Yet there were many things that contributed to the wickedness of the people of Sodom, some of which I shall detail in subsequent scrolls. I am grateful that my master in his learning has taught me many skills that most stewards have not the chance to learn, so I make a feeble attempt to make a record of this people.

Fertile was the plain of Siddim, but it was not always good for man to pass by or even dwell there. The air stank at times because of the brimstone, which burned the nostrils and caught the throat. Some said the stench that came and went arose from a gas under the surface of the earth. From time to time the ground rumbled and shook, which caused the inhabitants at first to fear, but these rumblings grew to be the butt of many jokes; the inhabitants would revel in warnings from the Lord, which they chose to take as cause for laughter.

Besides, the land around Sodom was very rich, and the regular and abundant harvests made the people forget those hints of hell. There was even a grove in which the inhabitants would gather annually at harvest time with their families to feast and to celebrate. It was at times such as these that Cherazim and others told of abominations in the sight of the Lord. Children too young to drink wine nevertheless drank in with their eyes scenes too wicked to set forth on these scrolls.

Much as I was cast down by the increasing wickedness of these cities, I had no sense of imminent disaster until near the end. Only near the end did I recall afresh that my master, Abraham, once had to flee from the wickedness of his fathers, for they had turned from their righteousness and utterly refused to hearken to the Lord's voice. And I was comforted by the assurance that the righteous are always given a way to escape, if they are truly desirous of happiness, peace, and righteousness.

Nevertheless, I did marvel that sin could lay such hold upon men and that the children of men could become so entangled therein. Truly, not only do seeds and species produce after their own kind, but wickedness begets wickedness.

The sadness of Lot, who rescued his wife and daughters from Sodom just before its destruction, has since been deep and great, for his wife not only looked back toward Sodom, but may have sought to return thither. We must put our hand to the plow and not look back, for where the eyes glance back, the heart may go also.

Great indeed is the power of sin over the souls of men and women. The saddest of those whom I saw in Sodom were those few who sorrowed the sorrowing of the damned, who could no longer take happiness in their sins, but who could not truly repent either, for their hearts were not broken and their spirits were not contrite.

I make an end to this writing of the first scroll.

[Hemidakota]

The Second Sodom Scroll

One of the iniquities of Sodom was pride. I have never seen pride as fierce or as unjustified as the pride of the Sodomites. They were proud of their riches; they were proud of their wealth; they were proud of their injustice toward men. They were even proud of their pride. Do not pride and wickedness go hand-in-hand? For as surely as the proud elevate themselves in their own eyes, their neighbors disappear from view. The proud not only fail to look up to God, but the proud look down on their neighbors.

The Sodomites kept no memory of the blessings they received from God. Because of their selfishness, they hated strangers with an especial hatred. A stranger was not to be helped, but to be used and abused. The very laws in Sodom were designed to harm and to worsen the state of the poor. Those who were rich were favored by the law. I was told by Cherazim that the less a man owned, the more he was obliged to render service in tribute to government. Yet though there was neglect of the poor and needy in the midst of plenty, the poor became greedy and envious themselves. The world of the wicked is a world turned upside down.

Why should those who had much goods enjoy the sport of flooding their highways so that strangers could not find, or make, their way? Why should the citizens of Sodom have been so heartless toward beasts as well as toward men? Perhaps just as kindness is contagious, so cruelty begets its own kind. Once these cities were somewhat humble after their conquest by King Chedorlaomer, but since they were compelled to be humble, their humility did not last.

Beneath their proud outward face, however, there was seen in the faces of the inhabitants of Sodom boredom and hatred of self. Because they no longer loved their God or their fellowmen, they had grown to hate life and to hate themselves. But the more fiercely they disliked life, the more fiercely did they seem to cling to it. They seemed to seek out the sensations—those things that would convince them they were still alive—and these were the most selfish vices. The Sodomites worshiped fiercely at the altar of appetite.

The weariness I saw in them was not really a weariness of life; it was a weariness of being near death, because such men were oppressed with feelings of not being alive. By service and righteousness, we are made exceedingly alive, but sin dulls us and brings us near death. So afflicted, the Sodomites sought some fresh sensation, some new sensual experience that would still assure them they were still alive; but there was a deadening of their capacity to feel with each new sin and with each new sinful sensation. Life in Sodom was much as it must have been in the days of Noah, when there likewise was much corruption and violence.

The cruelty of these cities had its links with their exceeding great wealth; the soils here seemed able to grow almost everything. Yet, the more the Sodomites had, the more they wanted; they contrived to feel envy in the midst of plenty.

Of this be assured: there was no meeting of inhabitants in which the Sodomites made sudden determination they would become the most wicked city in the world. But what they once would have refused to do directly, they soon did indirectly and swiftly; they were led carefully down to hell.

Lot rightly feared early for his own sons-in-law, who were against his timely exhortations to them, because they had become so entangled in sin. Lot's wife was a woman without decision, finding it hard to make decisions without looking back on what she had decided. And she was also thoughtless; some say it was she who gave away the presence of the divine visitors in her household when she went to borrow salt from one of her neighbors. Even so, it may be unjust to expect anyone to have lived so close to Sodom and not have been infected by it.

Another sin of Sodom was idleness. Idleness brings about idolatry and increase in iniquity. There is something holy about work; even in times of plenty, it is a necessity. While work is not all of life, it nevertheless can keep us mindful of our blessings.

The very regularity of the fertility of the plain of Siddim was one of the causes of idleness, because the people needed not to labor hard in order to produce more than they needed. Thus everyone went on eating, drinking, buying, selling, planting, and building, ever seeking to satisfy their lusts for sensual satisfaction, for possessions, and for power. There was routine in the wickedness.

The Sodomites idled away their time and their talents. Thus we see how the idle are led away them selves, but also the manner in which they withhold their talents from their neighbors in need. When we do not share God's purposes, time can be a heavy curse. The idle do not rejoice and thank God for the gift of each day. Rather do they believe that time is theirs to spend solely on themselves, and they pass the needy by and notice them not, nor are they familiar with others to whom they might impart of their substance. Adversity does not always produce appreciation, but affluence rarely does.

In their leisure, the Sodomites never thought to render service to others; they sought some new sensation or a new manner of an old sensation. They were turned inward on themselves. Their hardness of countenance was matched by their hardness of words, for their conversations were filthy. When I was with my master in Eygpt I saw some civility and gentility, but these qualities disappeared in but one decade in Sodom.

He who reads this might ask about the leaders of Sodom. The men here, save Lot, were evil. The judges were corrupt. The city fathers had long since ceased to care about serving the people; rather they yielded to the people as the people took to their pleasures and wished no interference therein. Even as the laws multiplied what was forbidden, as in the buying and selling of things, the laws pertaining to the morals of the people diminished so as to permit anything in behavior.

There is no sin that is truly private, for ere long what is done privately will be justified and promoted publicly. A man cannot, for long, be good when the sun is high in the sky but then be bad as night comes, for such a one is divided against himself.

Moreover, a carnal and sensual soul is no friend of the poor and needy. The city fathers closed their eyes to the iniquity around them. Corruption spread wide, and whatsoever a man did was no crime.

The men of Sodom forgot to do justly and to love mercy, and their way of life was measured from bribe to bribe. They excused themselves to each other, saying that the hand of everyone took and held bribes; so should not each have his share? He who might once have been condemned of all for dishonesty became esteemed of all. The bribery was twice wicked because it gave advantage to the undeserving and it took from the deserving. And as the judges became corrupt, more and more citizens were willing to bear false witness for a fee. Cleverness was more valued than goodness, and the truth of what a man said came to matter less than his manner of speech.

But that was not the way of its beginning. A few short years ago, men who wanted more freedom simply pressed for the right to live as they pleased and to walk in their own way. Those who had asked for tolerance for themselves were later not content to let Lot or his family alone, since Lot strove to live after the manner of the Lord. What started out merely as a plea on the part of the wicked for tolerance for themselves later turned into a fierce oppression of others, and they were stirred up to anger against that which was good.

In Sodom, the wicked craved that all be wicked in the same way, even as the wretched desire that all be wretched in like manner. Men entangled with sin (taking what little pleasure they could from adultery, fornication, and homosexuality) were firm in the determination that all should do even as they did. Once each man who lived was himself and not another. Then all men became like unto one another, for sin strikes all men with the plague of sameness. Hard were the countenances of these in Sodom, and their fierceness of face could not be hid.

Lot told me many times that so filthy was the language and the profanity in the conversations of daily life in the streets and in the market that it vexed his soul every day. In my conversations with Cherazim, it was so, and in the end, I sought to avoid his company. Truly, the Sodomites could not speak peaceably one to another.

Are those who are evil always rude? Have those few who wish to live righteously always vexed those who live sinfully? I have seen the nobility of my master strive with the lukewarm, and at times the lukewarm resented his righteousness. Any man may blink as the rays of morning first touch his eyes, but some blink and then turn with irritation away from all light. So it is also when some men encounter an individual illuminated by the light of truth.

The children born into these cities had no choice at all left to them. Such was the conformity in wickedness that babes could be born free, but not remain agents unto themselves. My bowels were moved within me to see innocent children not born of goodly parents, but trapped in families where fathers lived in the depths of wickedness—and the mothers likewise, for the women of Sodom became even more hard and more raucous than the men, once they gave way to wickedness. Children grew old before their time, but it could not be otherwise in families filled with fornication or in neighborhoods aggrieved by adultery. Boys learn to be men by watching their fathers, but what choice had these boys in the haven of homosexuality that was Sodom?

[Hemidakota]

Part -2 of the Second Scroll of Sodom

Of all things that were most grievous to be born was this pursuit of strange flesh, in which men seek out men; they became like a wolf pack. When they saw unwary travelers, especially men, in the street, the news of such strangers would speed through the city with great swiftness.

Even as I despaired and wondered if there were enough good people to save Sodom, my loving master Abraham pleaded with the Lord for the Sodomites. But Abraham knew that in the days of Noah only eight were righteous enough to be saved.

When Lot warned the wicked, there were those in Sodom who said they feared not death or destruction, but it was not true courage, for theirs was not the courage of those who love life but are nevertheless willing to die because of some greater cause; nay, it was a willingness to die born of a disdain for life itself, a despair rooted in riotous living in a society no longer able to bear the bonds of restraint.

There once was an open theater to provide respite from labor, but the theater became ribald and wicked. There was a time when the drama in the theater dealt with matters that were worthy of veneration and celebration. Now the drama became merely a mirror of the fornications, rapes, beatings, and murders that filled the streets and houses of the city. Out of the faces of onlookers glared the eyes of beasts in stony stares that Cherazim said at first made even Lot's sons-in-law to feel afraid. But Lot's sons-in-law soon lost their fear and mocked Lot's warnings by saying, "O thou fool! Violins, cymbals, and flutes resound in the city, and thou sayest Sodom will be destroyed!"

After some years of such life, these five cities, except for Soar, were destroyed. A little mud sliding down a hill soon became a flood of filth, for when a people ceases in its pursuit of righteousness, it does not halt, but slithers even faster into evil.

I put an end to the second scroll

[Hemidakota]

The Third Sodom Scroll

I fear lest in my previous writings I have not done justice to my master's nephew, Lot. For Lot did strive mightily to save not only the city of Sodom, but also his own family. True it is that only he and his daughters remained alive, for his wife halted between two opinions, and his sons-in-law would not leave with him. Nevertheless, Lot had courage and was a just man.

When two divine messengers were Lot's guests, the men of the city surrounded his house. Lot did his best to shield his visitors and to protect his daughters and dissuade the rabble from evil designs. The divine visitors brought about a blindness upon the lusting men outside, who then wearied themselves trying to find the door and thereby gave a way of escape for Lot and those who would go with him.

Lot simply and plainly bade his sons-in-law, his daughters, and his wife, "Up, get you out of this place; for the Lord will destroy this city." But Lot's sons-in-law thought he mocked them and would not go.

When morning arose, the divine visitors again urged Lot to hasten and to take those who would go with him, his wife and two daughters; but Lot lingered in regret and in the end had to be led by the hand from Sodom in company with his wife and two daughters. So it was with Lot.

I have been with my master, Abraham, at times when he has had to escape or leave a land with dispatch, and I am filled with compassion for Lot in the bewilderment of those last hours. I know that it was with sadness my master, Abraham, left his father, Terah, in the land called Haran, where Terah turned again into idolatry and refused altogether to leave Haran.

It is grievous to a man when those he loves are not able to hear the truth and to respond to it, but the guilty taketh the truth to be hard, for it cutteth them to the very center. Lot in his great trial knew keenly the pressures of time were great upon him to try to persuade his loved ones in the final hours of Sodom.

When there are not enough good men to leaven a people, that people are deaf to the things of the Spirit. There was in this land of plenty a famine of righteous examples, and Lot was a solitary example. Thus did the people pattern themselves after the examples of evil, and the voice of the people did choose iniquity. Where there are enough good men to bear witness by their lives and their works that God lives (for in such cities some righteous works are done), these cities may have less mercy in the day of judgment than Sodom, which had fallen into a state of spiritual darkness such that the inhabitants could scarcely tell good from evil.

The citizens here were past feeling. They had lost their love toward God and man. As those who have known the joy of hearing music, but grow deaf and cannot discern the sounds, so only the most gross of sensations were felt by the Sodomites. How could they esteem their neighbors when they had lost their regard for themselves?

The Spirit of the Lord ceased striving with Sodom. Nevertheless, I fear that Sodom will become a watchword forever, for just as Sodom neglected its divine visitors, perhaps other wicked cities in times to come will neglect their divine emissaries and representatives.

The people of Sodom did evil for all to see. Their very countenances were witnesses against them.

Yea, Sodom declared its sins! Other people I have been among sometimes sought to cover their vanity and misdoings. Nevertheless, the boldness of the sin in Sodom, the fierceness with which they pursued evil, did cause me to tremble. Sodom openly strengthened the hand of evildoers.

Even though they had much of this world's goods, the Sodomites were never generous; even in their sensuality they were not generous, but altogether selfish. In their spiritual darkness they grew confused about what caused things to happen. They began to think that the abundance of their crops and harvests sprang from their skill, neglecting the God who gave them their soil and the rain that fell upon the soil, and who provided both the seeds and the sunshine that caused the seeds to sprout. The arrogance of the Sodomites was especially sinful in that they thought themselves sufficient in all things. They refused to give glory to God, but said haughtily that they would take the honor and the glory, even like unto him whose servants they had surely become.

Though I prayed for the Sodomites many times, my prayers were without faith, because of the great wickedness of Sodom. My master, Abraham, never despaired. I found the Sodomites to be without mercy, without order, without civilization, strong in their perversions, and past feeling—beyond any capacity to care for others.

At first it was the fathers who began to be immoral, for so often Satan seeks the shepherd, and then the flock comes after him. At that time among the wives and children who were still tender-hearted, I saw many hearts pierced with deep wounds. Later the women became as strong in their perversions as were the men.

The prophets have compared evil to darkness, and total darkness is always the same. Only light and illumination give variety and beauty to the earth and its people. The light had long since gone out of Sodom; sin was always in season, and the dance of life there was restless, like the waves of the sea which cannot rest. The wicked cannot rest, for wickedness wars with itself.

Now I make an end to this third Sodom Scroll, and if it so be that I am able, I will write yet another scroll. If not, even so, I am grateful that my master, Abraham, has taught me the manner of writing; though my own efforts are feeble, I rejoice in being able to leave these things. When you receive these things forgive my repetitions and the shortcomings of my words, but please do not gainsay the heaviness of my heart, out of which these words proceed, for my anguish is great concerning the destruction of Sodom and her sister cities.

[Hemidakota]

Final - The Fourth Sodom Scroll

I, Eliezer, desire to write yet another scroll in order to record somewhat more fully those things which pertain to the great destruction of Sodom.

As those in Sodom ripened in iniquity, my heart grew heavier, as did the hearts of those in my family, for they had known in passing some of those who dwelt in Sodom, and had even been from time to time in the dwelling of Lot. With me, my family was astonished at the seeming speed with which the Sodomites seized upon evil as a way of life. We saw together how, once the constraints of conscience are swept away, there are no barriers in the pathway of those who plunge toward the gulf of misery and endless woe. Once men cease to hearken to the counsels of God, they first say that whatsoever they do is no crime, and then they say boldly there Is no crime. Truly, whatsoever a man really believeth makes determination of his deeds, and whensoever men cease to believe in God and his judgments, they cease not only to be accountable to God, but also to their fellowmen. Many such evidences were seen by me and my family in the chronicle of evil in the cities of the plain. That is why, alas, my prayers for Sodom became without faith because of their continued wickedness.

I make no pretense that I or my family knew beforehand of the destruction of Sodom, but on the morn when the earth rumbled and the heavens were laced with lightning, when fire and brimstone came down like rain and when there were both the smells and sounds of great destruction, I cannot truly say that I and my family were surprised to see the destruction on the distant horizon.

Our very silence as we watched the distant fury was in sober contrast to the sights, sounds, and smells of the distant destruction. None of us spoke a word, and yet so much was said as our eyes met in grief and awe. It was so suddenly done—and so complete, except for the place known as Soar, which God in his mercy spared—that we knew none had survived, except God had prepared a way beforehand for them as, indeed, we soon learned God had done for Lot and his very own.

What was not swallowed up was burned up, and the smoke that ascended upward as the smoke of a furnace marked the place only briefly, and at length then the winds carried even it away. And there was a stillness such as I have never heard nor felt before nor since.

Passers-by and those in the trade caravans were dumbfounded when they later came to those very places where once they did barter in Sodom. Many would stop and stare at length and then depart in stony silence. Since then, the valley of Siddim has become so desolate that the trade caravans make haste around the place that was once Sodom. Would that onlooking men could learn from the past, but I fear that their wonderment was not a pondering over the mercies and judgments of God, but a brief puzzlement to be laid aside at the next stop of their journey.

Awful and mighty as was the sudden destruction that Lot witnessed firsthand once he was safely out of the city of Sodom, yet I am told that only when the multitude of evil men surrounded his place and sought to ravish Lot's divine visitors and his daughters did Lot know that the sins of Sodom had reached a point at which they were too grievous to continue in either the justice or the mercy of God.

I, Eliezer, see only as a humble steward sees, yet beyond what I have already recorded, I perceived these further things concerning Sodom.

The laughter of the licentious, which was so much a part of Sodom, is not a sign of real joy, for sensuality is sadness. The peculiar hypocrisy of the sinner is that he pretends he is happy when truly his heart is pierced with deep wounds, for wickedness never was happiness. Oh, how relentlessly the wicked seek company with others, for in departing from their God, their loneliness is an awful and a solemn loneliness.

Truly, the devil desireth that all men be made miserable like unto himself. Even the very pleasures with which he entices men to do evil are soon made empty, for the devil doth desert his own and cheateth their souls, not only out of salvation, but even out of that which he promised, for the truth is not in him.

In their fierce grasping for pleasure and wealth, the Sodomites did squeeze the joy out of everything that they did touch, for the less peace and contentment there was in their souls, the more bold did their evil become and the more overbearing their conduct. I was even led to ponder on occasion if their very rush to do iniquity did not also become a beckoning for judgment to come upon them to save them from themselves.

I seek now to make an end to my writings and to deliver these scrolls to Lot. If it so be that he may find them to be of value, he may desire to make his own a more complete record of these happenings. Yet I know his heart is exceedingly heavy, and it may be that in his remorse he cannot write of these things. Yet men must sometimes ponder the past prayerfully, if they desire to fashion a future fit to live in.

[Shell72]

J

In short, I have seen no Christian religion that does not require a condition be met before salvation is given. Given that your belief also requires a condition be met before salvation is recieved, it appears your argument is special pleading. In other words, both positions here require that some condition(s) be met before salvation is given freely, yet without justified reason, you are claiming that your position is salvation given freely, while the LDS position is not. This position isn't logically sustainable.

I would just like to comment on the above ..

There is no condition in Christianity. Salvation is free for the "taking" - taking being an action. Going back to the car dealership example that was used. If I say you can have a free car - do you not have to accept it to make it yours? If I hand you a towel - do you not have to physically reach out and take that towel before it becomes a gift? No one can be given a gift if they do not accept it..

Just my take on it :)

[Guest Xzain]

There is no condition in Christianity. Salvation is free for the "taking" - taking being an action. Going back to the car dealership example that was used. If I say you can have a free car - do you not have to accept it to make it yours? If I hand you a towel - do you not have to physically reach out and take that towel before it becomes a gift? No one can be given a gift if they do not accept it..

I believe the condition of receiving salvation is the act of receiving it. As you said, receiving it is action that must be taken- in that respect, work is a requirement of salvation.

Hemi-

Where did you find that huge quote/talk by Elder Maxwell? It's amazing; I want to save a copy on my computer.

[LegendadryPerc]

Disclaimer: This is not necisarily LDS doctrine. I'm sure those who are scolars in such will correct me, so I needn't worry

To understand Grace, one must understand other aspects of "mormonism" that I suspect differ from other Christian churches. God's purpose is not to save us all. We are not all robots or puppets He wants to save. He has given us a greater gift, our existance, our free-agency. In thus doing, he has given us control over our own happiness. Through Eve, He gave us knowledge of good and evil. Wickedness never was happiness, here or in the hereafter. God's purpose is to enable us to save ourselves. To give us the power to choose to be happy. He offers the gift, but He refuses to force it on us. We are free to take it or choose not to. Repentence means to stop and turn around, to change. Grace, the atonement, allows us to do this. Otherwise, having ever sinned, we could not agains be with God. I think "actions" are overemphasised. There are many situations where one does not have control over their physical actions, such a paralysis, or imprisonment. It is ones inner desires that constitute sin or not. I do not see a contridiction in grace and works, if freeagency is seen as the foundation. I do believe all who choose to be saved, will automatically do everything to follow Christ. If one continues to sin, they are not choosing to be saved. God is our loving Father. We are His whole purpose of existance. We are His happiness.

He wants us to be as happy as we possibly can! This is why those who choose to not be "saved" will not be. We will be saved according to our desires. Those who continue in a state of sin, will be happier whereever they are, than they would be if they were forced to be with those who are "saved".

[Islander]

We are splitting hairs here. When it comes to God we are ALL required to do something: pray, seek repentance, obey the commandments, forgive, praise, declare or testify. Faith in God must have a physical manifestation and evident to those around us. Although salvation is individual and personal as an experience.

Salvation is freely given by God but it requires some action in our part. I will go on in orer to avoid a cat fight on this one.

[Traveler]

The point that all should understand is that salvation is like a seed (I think even Jesus used this point). The seed and almost everything needed for the seed to grow is freely given to all for one does not receive more than another. But for some the seed will grow and for others the seed will not. The difference is not in the seed but in the place that the seed is given to grow.

The seed by itself will not always grow. It is obvious to all that G-d’s grace is not enough. His grace is like the seed. Without care the seed will not grow and survive.

What I find most interesting in religious conversations is that many think their soil is better than the soil of others and so they draw differences – always thinking to prove their soil better.

But the seed will grow in any acceptable soil – but there is more because not all seed will grow wheat.

The Traveler