Is grace enough?

[HizWife625]

AuContraire...There are those on this thread who believe that Grace alone paves the road to Salvation.

They believe that murderers and rapists will be in Heaven...just as sure as Peter, James and Jonh are there...all because of Grace alone...

Grace alone PAVED the foundation...... Peter established that upon his faith in Christ.....That was the foundation.

LET ME SAY THIS ONE MORE TINE

GRACE ALONE IS SUFFICIENT. AND BEING THAT JESUS GRACIOUSLY, FREELY, SELFLESSLY DIED FOR ME, MY DESIRE IS TO SERVE, HONOR AND OBEY.

WHY, BECAUSE I HAD A HEART CHANGE. I REJOINCE IN HIS DEATH AND RESUURECTION. WHY WOULD I WANT TO DISHONOR SOMETHING SO POWERFUL AND PRECIOUS AS HIS LOVE.

For the skeptic who feels this is not enough, so be it. If you choose not to believe grace is sufficient, you choose to cheapen the Atonement.

[skalenfehl]

Those who do not accept the definition of Grace, will not inherit eternity with Christ. Those was place conditions upon grace, take the Lord's death in vein.

Your understanding of grace is different as is your definition. This is why Christ speaks to us through a prophet today as He did before the apostacy of man. It is not us who place conditions on grace. It is the Lord and it is clearly explained in the book of Hebrews that faith without works is dead. Please understand that this is our doctrine and has been since the time of Adam. You don't have to believe our understanding of it. It is very presumptuous of you to say that we take the Lord's death in vain and that we don't accept your definition of grace.

[skalenfehl]

In case you missed it the first time in this thread:

We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.—Article of Faith 1:3 (Emphasis added)

Heavenly Father wants all of His children to return to Him. The help or strength He gives us through the love of Jesus Christ is called grace. The things we must do are called works.

To gain eternal life, we need both grace and works. A Christian author, C. S. Lewis, compared grace and works to the blades of a pair of scissors. Both are necessary. To ask “Are you saved by grace or works?” is like asking “Do you cut with this blade or that one?”

We receive God’s grace because of the Atonement. We can’t raise ourselves from the dead, so the Resurrection is an example of His grace. We can’t purify ourselves from sin, so the Lord’s forgiveness is another example of grace. But before He will forgive us, we must repent—that’s our part, our works.

Besides repentance, our works also include receiving ordinances, keeping covenants, and serving others. While these works are necessary for salvation, they aren’t sufficient. They are not enough because we can’t live perfect lives, but we can do our best to live righteously. By doing so, we invite the Lord’s grace into our lives and qualify for the gift of salvation.

We believe that we are saved by grace after all we can do (see 2 Ne. 25:23). We don’t earn salvation. Heavenly Father and the Savior will bless us with eternal life, through Their grace, if we do our part. They have asked us to have faith in Jesus Christ, repent throughout our lives, be baptized and receive other ordinances, and faithfully endure to the end. If we do that, we are promised eternal life through the grace of God.

This is our doctrine.

[HizWife625]

Clearly...if you knew anything about LDS history...you would know there are many "fallen LDS"...That was not the point of my post.

Someone on this thread claimed that no Christian does what I've clearly pointed out that many have do.

When a traditional Christian minister screams out on the radio...that all you need is to say Jesus save me and you'll be saved, he is cheapening the sacrifice of the Savior. When a Christian minister peddles a plastic jesus filled with a little dirt from Gethsemene...They cheapen the Atonement.

What I really find amazing is that while many exclaim...love my plastic jesus...they whisper...hate those gawdless marmons...

NOW...Clearly, I'm not indicting the whole of Traditional Christianity...but...I've seen enough streaked mascara on cable TV to know that Traditional Christianity is a fraud riddled today...as it was during the Great Councils...

YOU JUST INDICTED ME.......................

[HizWife625]

In case you missed it the first time in this thread:

We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.—Article of Faith 1:3 (Emphasis added)

Heavenly Father wants all of His children to return to Him. The help or strength He gives us through the love of Jesus Christ is called grace. The things we must do are called works.

To gain eternal life, we need both grace and works. A Christian author, C. S. Lewis, compared grace and works to the blades of a pair of scissors. Both are necessary. To ask “Are you saved by grace or works?” is like asking “Do you cut with this blade or that one?”

We receive God’s grace because of the Atonement. We can’t raise ourselves from the dead, so the Resurrection is an example of His grace. We can’t purify ourselves from sin, so the Lord’s forgiveness is another example of grace. But before He will forgive us, we must repent—that’s our part, our works.

Besides repentance, our works also include receiving ordinances, keeping covenants, and serving others. While these works are necessary for salvation, they aren’t sufficient. They are not enough because we can’t live perfect lives, but we can do our best to live righteously. By doing so, we invite the Lord’s grace into our lives and qualify for the gift of salvation.

We believe that we are saved by grace after all we can do (see 2 Ne. 25:23). We don’t earn salvation. Heavenly Father and the Savior will bless us with eternal life, through Their grace, if we do our part. They have asked us to have faith in Jesus Christ, repent throughout our lives, be baptized and receive other ordinances, and faithfully endure to the end. If we do that, we are promised eternal life through the grace of God.

This is our doctrine.

Ok, thank you.

After

By obeience to

Keeping

Receive ordinances

Grace............... Freely given in place of deserved justice.

[HizWife625]

Your understanding of grace is different as is your definition. This is why Christ speaks to us through a prophet today as He did before the apostacy of man. It is not us who place conditions on grace. It is the Lord and it is clearly explained in the book of Hebrews that faith without works is dead. Please understand that this is our doctrine and has been since the time of Adam. You don't have to believe our understanding of it. It is very presumptuous of you to say that we take the Lord's death in vain and that we don't accept your definition of grace.

Then how do you interpret.....Eph 2:8-9 - For by grace are you saved, not by works.

[Guest User-Removed]

YOU JUST INDICTED ME.......................

Is your mascara running??????

[HizWife625]

'It is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do' (2 Ne. 25:23)

Joseph Smith's Interpretation

-

Ephesians

2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Inerrant Word of God

-

[HizWife625]

Smile.

[HizWife625]

Is your mascara running??????

Nope. not at all...... It's waterproof. Thanks for asking though.

But I was crying this morning at a song I heard by the group Avalon " There are no Orphans in Christ"................. Oh you just gotta hear it. It is beautiful.

And there was another one by Michael W Smith...." So Great "....... It is beautiful.

[skalenfehl]

Then how do you interpret.....Eph 2:8-9 - For by grace are you saved, not by works.

It is reasonable to say that Paul knew what he was talking about when he addressed many people, particularly the Hebrews, the Ephesians and even the Phillippians when he instructed them to work out their salvation with fear and trembling Philippians (2:12). If faith without works is dead then why work? Was Paul contradicting himself? Not at all.

We define works, first and foremost as exercising faith. Secondly being penitent--repenting of our sins, etc. Paul told the people at Ephesus that through grace they are saved:

Eph. 2: 8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

You left out a few parts. In the KJV, we read that it is through Christ's grace and not of ourselves that we are saved. As I mentioned previously, We receive God’s grace because of the Atonement. We can’t raise ourselves from the dead, so the Resurrection is an example of His grace. We can’t purify ourselves from sin, so the Lord’s forgiveness is another example of grace.

If we could raise ourselves up and resurrect ourselves we'd have much to boast, wouldn't we? We cannot save ourselves of our own power. We need Christ's Atonement--that is the gift that Paul is referring to.

[HizWife625]

'It is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do' (2 Ne. 25:23)

Grace is the last thing you rely on.....

Grace is the first thing I rely on because there nothing I can do.

( I cannot do this by myself. I need the Lord. He extends grace.....Once I have His grace, I can do all things )

I rely on His grace first.......

[skalenfehl]

'It is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do' (2 Ne. 25:23)

Grace is the last thing you rely on.....

Grace is the first thing I rely on because there nothing I can do.

So you don't have faith in Christ?

[HizWife625]

No, not in the christ Joseph Smith has introduced. Not the chirst that the LDS followers place thier faith in.

[skalenfehl]

I do not have faith in the Christ you serve.............

He is the same Christ that causes the rain to fall on us and the sun to shine on us. I think you get the same sunshine that I do. I hope.

[HizWife625]

Incorrect.

Even the head of the LDS faith spoke to the public clearly saying we serve two different.......

[skalenfehl]

You and I describe and follow differently.... You servce one christ, I serve THE Christ.

The only thing I can conclude then, is you are here to insult us. If not then why are you here?

[HizWife625]

Not at all.

There was another posts somewhere that also stated we serve two different.

And it was MyDogSkip who called us traditiona Christians frauds..... That is where the insult came from.

When I get called a fraud, by all means I will defend my faith and stand boldly. :lol:

[skalenfehl]

I don't condone Skip doing that. Be sure to report anyone who is making insulting comments. He's been addressed previously. As for the head of the LDS faith speaking clearly about us serving two different....

I'd like to see where you read this.

It is undeniable that Paul clearly taught the Phillippians and the Hebrews that they must work out their salvation. Paul was an Apostle of Christ. I believe he told the truth and we subscribe to that truth.

I just found an article that should be able to definitively explain everything regarding being saved by grace.

Salvation by Grace Alone?

[Canuck Mormon]

The question has been answered several times and refuted several times.

To sum it up:

We believe in being saved by Grace, after all we can do.

You believe in being saved by Grace.

If there is any more contentious remarks from ANYONE, I will close this thread.

[skalenfehl]

Hizwife, I submit (although you claim that we serve two different Christs) that even you have faith in yours. That is a work. It is the beginning of your works. Even your coming here to share the gospel according to your understanding is a work. I assume that because you have faith in Christ, you are living according to His teachings (Ten Commandments, loving thy neighbor, etc.)

How can one be saved by grace who doesn't accept Him in the first place?

[HizWife625]

Thanks Cancuck

..... I think the OP new this already. Since the OP is LDS, he already knew the answer to his own question.....make sense

IKWIM ?????

[HizWife625]

Hizwife, I submit (although you claim that we serve two different Christs) that even you have faith in yours. That is a work. It is the beginning of your works. Even your coming here to share the gospel according to your understanding is a work. I assume that because you have faith in Christ, you are living according to His teachings (Ten Commandments, loving thy neighbor, etc.)

How can one be saved by grace who doesn't accept Him in the first place?

Faith is a gift.

I accept Jesus Christ......I do not accept the teachings of the LDS's.

Cancuck already answered you in his last post.

You beleive after all you can do

I beleive in grace first.

[skalenfehl]

Faith is a gift.

Gifts must be accepted or refused, though. Or does Christ refuse to give some gifts and others not?

[HizWife625]

Yes, I attempt everyday to live according to the 10 commandments and more....But, I am justified by God's grace first....... I know I am flesh, inherited sin and I will fall. I am not made perfect yet as I have not been glorified.

Just as it is hard for you to grasp grace being first, so is it hard for me to accept that you try to do everything you can then rely on grace.

I rely on grace first. After grace, my heart changed. After grace, my heart desires to honor Him and bring all the glory to Him that I can. Then, if I fail, I keep relying on grace. I get up, dust my boots off and get back on that righteous path to Calvary.

That is the difference between you and me..... You rely on it last trying to do everything you can do.... But I rely on it first knowing there is nothing I can do without accepting His saving grace.