Is grace enough?

[skalenfehl]

He preached that the Lord would return in approximately 56 years....Somewhere around 1891...... That did not happen.

Will you please cite the exact quote that you derived this conclusion? I believe you are misinterpreting the quote or not understanding the full context.

[Hemidakota]

Why did Christ not Return in 1891, as Joseph Smith Predicted?

From FAIR, the Foundation for Apologetic Information and Research

Cut: One of the anti-Mormon “Questions Mormons should ask themselves” suggests that Joseph Smith made an incorrect prediction because the Second Coming did not occur in 1891.

The passage in question is found in Section 130 of the Doctrine and Covenants. It is reported in abbreviated form, and Joseph acknowledged as he recorded it that he didn't understand the meaning or intent of the revelation. Joseph Smith reported:

I was once praying very earnestly to know the time of the coming of the Son of Man, when I heard a voice repeat the following: “Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man; therefore let this suffice, and trouble me no more on this matter” (Doctrine and Covenants 130: 14-15).

Many critics end the quote at this point, and then they hope the reader will assume that the statement is a prophecy that the Savior would come in the year 1890 or 1891, since the Prophet Joseph was born in 1805. However, if the reader will continue further in that passage, they will see that Joseph Smith himself stated:

I was left thus, without being able to decide whether this coming referred to the beginning of the millennium or to some previous appearing, or whether I should die and thus see his face (Doctrine and Covenants 130:16).

The actual content of Joseph's prophecy does not occur until the next verse:

I believe the coming of the Son of Man will not be any sooner than that time (Doctrine and Covenants 130:17).

Without a doubt, that prophecy came true. The Lord did not return to the earth for His Second Coming before that time.

It should also be noted, that this revelation followed the pattern of other conditional prophecies in the scriptures. The Lord stated some event that would have to occur if the prophecy were to be fulfilled. In this case, it was conditional on Joseph living to be eight-five years old. Of course, that did not happen. Joseph was martyred at the age of 38.

[Hemidakota]

Will you please cite the exact quote that you derived this conclusion? I believe you are misinterpreting the quote or not understanding the full context.

One of many miss-quotes that written in anti-Mormon pamphlets.

[lostnfound]

I just cought up on some of the posting. I find it interesting that even though some say that grace is enough they will then turn around and say it is not enough if you deny the Christ. If it is enough and if it is free then even discussions are pointless. The only reason to say or talk about the grace of G-d and make a point of it - is because somewhere somehow it is not enough.

It does not matter what a person says - it is what they do. That has always been the case and will always be the case.

Let me put this in another way - How can a G-d be called "full of grace" and love and compassion that would banish anyone from heaven that truly desired to be there. I have said it before and I will say it again. THE GRACE OF G-D IS NOT ENOUGH FOR THOSE THAT WOULD RATHER BE IN DARKNESS THAN IN LIGHT!!!

I personally would rather be in a hell full of those that desire to be in heaven and with G-d than in a heaven full of those that want to exclude anyone from heaven that desires to be with G-d.

Also - I do not care what you have done or where or how you worship or what church you belong to - If you want to live in heaven with G-d - I offer you all that I have and all that I am to stand by and assist you in getting there as best I can and know how. Even if it does not make a difference - I offer it anyway.

The Traveler

Traveler,,

If you are diaganoced with a disease..and I tell you all about your disease and what you have and why you have it and then I tell you what the cure is. And all about the cure and you know all their is to know about that medicine..Will you get better?

Of course you won't why? Because you have not taken the medicine yet. The only thing thing that cures your disease is going to the drug store picking up the medicine..opening it and taking the pill. Well..we know what our disease is..it's called sin and that sin has seperated us from God. We are in trouble traveler!!! We are all in trouble! The payment for sin is death."

(romans) But here is the good news!!!!

Jesus died for your sins and for mine and the only thing we have to do is recieve this gift.

Have i done anything to deserve it? Nope..will I continue to sin absoutly...but now we live under grace not a license to sin..That is very important..and paul talkes this. A true believer will want to do good things..but the things we do not not justify us.

Now i think your original post said something about denying christ.or you might have been referrring to the unpardonable sin??? I am not sure..but if you were then..Yes, if you deny christ, If you do not go to the drug store and take the pill you still live with your condition.

[Hemidakota]

Now, do you think the Jewish priest’s hierarchy who had the Savior put to death could take that pill?

[lostnfound]

Now, do you think the Jewish priest’s hierarchy who had the Savior put to death could take that pill?

The jewish priests had the same opportunity as the others to believe in Jesus and follow him.

[Hemidakota]

So, what was is the answer? Did they truly know He was the Lord and Savior?

[lostnfound]

So, what was is the answer? Did they truly know He was the Lord and Savior?

well if I may just restate your question just slightly different..Did they truly repent of their sins acknowledging they were sinners and put their faith in Christ alone to save them?

The answer no. If you have to admit you have a disease Hemi. Repentance is a heart attitude to God that say's I can't do this Lord by my own merit.

[Hemidakota]

You surprise me LF. Good answer. I would replace the word heart to reflect SPIRTUAL.

The Jewish Priest knew who He was and still, they had the choice [agency], in not putting the Lord to death.

[HizWife625]

Now, do you think the Jewish priest’s hierarchy who had the Savior put to death could take that pill?

ABSOLUTELY HE COULD......... Just as I can repent, so can he..... Why can't he same he was sorry and he was wrong.....And the needs the Lord.....???? Why could he not do that? He is humbling himself before God....... And God said " ANYONE who knocks".....

[HizWife625]

Hemi

Jesus could have not died....He had the power to not let this happen....But He willfully did it ........ It was his will............ Jesus loves the Jews just as much as anyone else.

[lostnfound]

Hizwife good point. They could take the pill..but then hemi asked did they take the pill?

[HizWife625]

Perhaps they didn't.....Good point.

But, it was Hemi's sin that murdered the Lord.....It was mine and your sin that murdered the Lord...... It was the entire world that murdered the Lord........ pure Grace saved the world.........:lol::lol: ( That's me singing " Amazing Grace"......but my sound is not so sweet )... LOL

[HizWife625]

LNF.......

Can we stop the will of the Father?

That just "popped" in my head..........Does Christ work according to our will or His?

[Hemidakota]

If you had read the history of the Jews since the death of the Savior, were they in fact, forgiven? The answer is no. Looked what happened to them afterwards until 1948. GOD the FATHER allow them to fall as a people.

I will say this, it will be the Lord only who will return to save His own house and no other.

[HizWife625]

I see Jews coming to know Christ now.....They ask for forgiveness and repent.

[Hemidakota]

Not going to happen for the masses. Why? Read what will happen - see the Book of Revelation.

Again, instead of these topics, it is more vaulable to start at the basics.

[HizWife625]

But how do you know the book is complete?

[Hemidakota]

When there is no Godhead...there is no more revelation given.

[HizWife625]

It sounds liek you put your faith in the book of Revelatinos but not the rest of the bible........Maybe there is something missing in the Book of Revelations...........

[WillowTheWhisp]

I personally would rather be in a hell full of those that desire to be in heaven and with G-d than in a heaven full of those that want to exclude anyone from heaven that desires to be with G-d.

I've often thought the same myself.

But what works did the thief do?

............................

...... The thief had no time to work bringing honor and glory......

That is exactly the point. He had no time to be disobedient either! But those of us who do have time have the choice too - do we obey and do the things Jesus asks of us or do we choose not to do them and still believe we have a right to salvation?

Also, we have absolutely no idea what action the thief then took once he was in Paradise. Remember that was not the final location. Judgement is yet to come for him and we cannot presume that he will reach Celestial glory. We do not know.

In what year did Joseph Smith preach that the Lord would be comnig? From that time, how many years did Joseph Smith say the Lord was coming? Did hte Lord return as Joseph Smith prophecied?

He didn't. There's an 'if' in that prophecy and the 'if' was not fulfilled, therefore the rest of it wasn't. A bit like saying 'If you take that bus you'll get to the chapel on time' and the person let's the bus go by and arrives late for Sacrament Meeting. The bus got there on time but the person is late. Is it the fault of the bus company?

[Shell72]

Jesus gave his life that we should not have to lose ours. Jesus forgave us of all of our sins and said all we need to do is believe in Him, ask for His forgiveness and the Kingdom of God is ours. It's simple.

All this earthly stuff is not important, and takes away from the true meaning of a relationship with our Heavenly Father. HE is what is important. Not following a man made lifestyle. - not any of this. This all just clouds and blurrs the true purpose and takes away from something very special that has graciously been given to us. We are so loved, and so treasured, and so forgiven by God - we are His children - and none of this is important. Clouding this beautiful gift we have been given with analytical gibberish only tarnishes our ability to accept the purity of gift IMO.

[bert10]

I have learned that Grace of GOD is applied differently for the sinners and for the righteous.

Grace of GOD for sinners......Is time given to repent before Justice demands judgments. For each sin God gives a person an allotted time to repent - Before the consequence of that sin impacts his life.

Grace of GOD for the righteous...The ability of GOD to see us as Little Children. Jesus did inherit this ability calling many children.

I would like to give a bit on this.

Who are considered as little Children? John has spoken on this.

1...Fathers: because ye have known him [[Jesus]]that is from the beginning

2...Young Men: because ye have overcome the wicked one.

3...Little Children: because ye have known the Father.

1 John 2:13 - I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.

Jesus did say unless we become as Little chidlren [who have known the Father] we shall not enter into His kingdom.

I hope this helps.

Peace be unto you

bert10

I just cought up on some of the posting. I find it interesting that even though some say that grace is enough they will then turn around and say it is not enough if you deny the Christ. If it is enough and if it is free then even discussions are pointless. The only reason to say or talk about the grace of G-d and make a point of it - is because somewhere somehow it is not enough.

It does not matter what a person says - it is what they do. That has always been the case and will always be the case.

Let me put this in another way - How can a G-d be called "full of grace" and love and compassion that would banish anyone from heaven that truly desired to be there. I have said it before and I will say it again. THE GRACE OF G-D IS NOT ENOUGH FOR THOSE THAT WOULD RATHER BE IN DARKNESS THAN IN LIGHT!!!

I personally would rather be in a hell full of those that desire to be in heaven and with G-d than in a heaven full of those that want to exclude anyone from heaven that desires to be with G-d.

Also - I do not care what you have done or where or how you worship or what church you belong to - If you want to live in heaven with G-d - I offer you all that I have and all that I am to stand by and assist you in getting there as best I can and know how. Even if it does not make a difference - I offer it anyway.

The Traveler

[Shell72]

I have learned that Grace of GOD is applied differently for the sinners and for the righteous.

Grace of GOD for sinners......Is time given to repent before Justice demands judgments. For each sin God gives a person an allotted time to repent - Before the consequence of that sin impacts his life.

I absolutely respectully disagree.

Where in the Bible does it say that there are seperate kinds of Grace? And where does it say we have an allotted time to repent before it impacts our lives?

If I were to go into a store and steal a chocolate bar for instance. I get caught. While I confess my sins to God, HE forgives me and that is what is important, I still must deal with the consequences of my actions here on earth. Throughout the Bible Men and women sinned - God Forgave them, but still there were reprocussions. Look at the very first book. Cain and Able. He was forgiven by God, and given a mark of protection - but he still was exiled. To me that tells me that I can have forgiveness of God, but I will still face consequences on earth, but God will stand by me throughout.

[skalenfehl]

Regarding the thief on the cross, here's my take. He was a thief. As far as we know the only law that he broke was stealing. He was crucified by the Romans for breaking Roman law. He also broke the spiritual law given to the children of Israel--Thou shalt not steal. He paid his price to man. His crucifixion satisfied Caesar's law. The real issue, however, is satisfying God's law for mercy cannot rob justice. In this case, as Christ was about to fulfill all righteousness by his infinite sacrifice, His grace would be sufficient to save the thief, who testified that Christ had done no wrong and didn't deserve to be crucified by the Romans and asked to be saved in His kingdom. He had faith and was penitent (first two articles of our faith).

Christ told him that "today" the thief would be with Christ in Paradise. I can only speculate one of two things. The thief, after dying on the cross, went to Spirit Prison and received the fullness gospel there and was granted access to Paradise. The other, is that, while on the cross, his penance was complete and through Christ's atonement and direct promise went straightaway into Paradise.

Whether or not he was "with Christ" in Paradise by His side, I don't know. We are all on earth, though not in each other's immediate company so the thief could easily have been in Paradise with Christ after He preached to everyone in Prison, even those who had perished in the flood of Noah as mentioned in 2 Peter.