Unanswered Questions

[Aphrodite]

Vahnin, it is not about not knowing the location of a cave (yet another thing I didnt know till this thread) or how he translated it, but that we as members are not told or taught this as a matter of course. I was taught, from a little girl, Joseph Smith translated the plates from the urim and thummim-why wasn't I taught, AND a seer stone? Do you see our point? Why was something like that not taught as a matter of course like the urim and thummim?? We are taught Moroni visited Joseph-why aren't we taught how he gave the plates back??? Bits are left out.

The point is we are taught a 'version' of events surrounding the first vision and early church organisation that are different to the reality, and, unsurprisingly some of us take issue with that. If it's 'not important' or 'doesnt matter' then why is it so hidden from our radar, that it is only available by deep searching like yellowlight has done??

Why are we not taught ALL the facts so that we can come to our own conclusions or recieve our own revelation?? Is that not what the chur ch tells us to do??? Hard to do when you only know part of the story.

[Hemidakota]

I will need to remind everyone that there is a real Seer Stone that the Church does possess. It was Joseph Smith in the latter part of his days, held it in his pocket. It is a single stone and not the usual dark colour two-stones that sit in a silver rim.

Upon his death, one of the members [Nibble] ran quickly to the house he was staying and took the stone for safe keeping and later gave it to Brigham Young.

Even the original stones that were placed in the stone box were too large for Joseph Smith to wear. It was a size for a person who was at least 9-feet tall to wear comfortably.

Now, you know the rest of the story.

[YellowLight]

The point is we are taught a 'version' of events surrounding the first vision and early church organisation that are different to the reality, and, unsurprisingly some of us take issue with that. If it's 'not important' or 'doesnt matter' then why is it so hidden from our radar, that it is only available by deep searching like yellowlight has done??

Why are we not taught ALL the facts so that we can come to our own conclusions or recieve our own revelation?? Is that not what the chur ch tells us to do??? Hard to do when you only know part of the story.

That is my point exactly. It has been said many times, it doesn't matter if things are represented differently than how they really happened because the church is true. Maybe for you, it doesn't, but for me it does. History gets mis-represented usually for one reason...we don't want others to know about it. And I don't want the milk before meat analogy as well...history is just that, history. It doesn't change and it is what it is.

Boyd K. Packer: “Church history can be so interesting and so inspiring as to be a very powerful tool indeed for building faith. If not properly written or properly taught, it may be a faith destroyer.”

Here is another question:

For those of you who are familiar with the Kinderhook plates, why did Joseph Smith write the following:

"I insert fac-similes of the six brass plates found near Kinderhook, in Pike county, Illinois, on April 23, by Mr. Robert Wiley and others, while excavating a large mound. They found a skeleton about six feet from the surface of the earth, which must have stood nine feet high. The plates were found on the breast of the skeleton and were covered on both sides with ancient characters.

I have translated a portion of them and find they contain the history of the person with whom they were found. He was a descendant of Ham, through the loins of Pharaoh, king of Egypt, and that he received his kingdom from the ruler of heaven and earth." (History of the Church, Vol. 5, p. 372)

I have heard some apologists saying that it wasn't actually a translation, but reading this, it was. It is so obvious...and we now know that these were a fraud. Why doesn't the church just be up front and honest about it? This was one of the first things that caught my attention and my Bishop had absolutely no answer for it. Maybe someone here can enlighten me.

[Hemidakota]

Church Publications (HTML)

[Aphrodite]

Very interesting article hemidakota, and very plausible. However, there are still a lot of things that dont tally.

Surely, having been visited by Christ and God himself, Moroni, peter james and John and whoever else, all giving him face-to-face instruction, Joseph Smith would not have thought 'oh, God must have forgot to mention these'. Its ridiculous, he was alledgedly told everything he needed to do and know, by face to face contact with heavenly messengers. If these plates turned up why didnt he just ask God what they were??? If he was on those sort of terms with God surely he would have got an immediate answer they were fake, and dismissed them. Clearly he did not do that, he wanted to try and translate them!!!! What does this say about his relationship with God as a Prophet??

Also, where on earth did this Wiley get a 9 foot skeleton from to 'bury' them with? Its just all very weird and the sketchy details on the whole issue just pose more questions. Having read that article, on its merit alone, I believe they were fake. What it also shows too, is that Joseph Smith did NOT appear to receive any revelation or answers on these plates.

Ok, here's another question, with this story in mind, why did Joseph Smith give 4 different accounts of the first vision?? (This may not be totally accurate as I have just heard it but I am sure he gave more than one account of it).

Why did he lie to Emma about the number of wives he took?

Why did he 'marry' women who were already married, and young girls?

Why are a lot of the symbols in the temple identical to masonic symbols and rituals when they were alledgedly 'revealed' by God?

Why has the temple ceremony changed over the years after BY declaring it 'must never be altered'?

Just thought Id move the discussion along a bit. I really would genuinely like some answers to these questions, as Im sure YellowLight would too.

[Jenamarie]

Aphrodite: I would really recommend you read Rough Stone Rolling, if you haven't already. A lot of your questions about the Prophet would likely be answered by it. :)

[Aphrodite]

Jenamarie, that book has been recommended to me by several people so I am intrigued to read it. Is it the type of thing they sell on amazon or in the church bookshop?? I am definitely intrigued by it as several ex mormons and people who are at issue with the church have recommended it to me aswell. So I am very interested to know what is in it.

[Snow]

What I don't get is why FARMS and FAIR have to even come up with with their responses to defend controversial LDS doctrine which aren't endorsed by the church. If the mormons have a prophet and always have had a prophet why doesn't he just answer the questions just like that?

Instead of saying "we don't know what he meant by that" or "that's not official doctrine" or "it's not essential for our salvation, it isn't important".

Why doesn't someone who can speak officially and is a prophet just say - "The answer to your question is this..."

Why doesn't the church have an official stance on evolution, for example. Can't he just ask and get the facts?

Trying to understand your point... you think that the prophet should just have God tell him the answer to all the questions you think should be answered and that God should just do whatever the prophet wants, which in this case is whatever you want.

Is that about right?

[HiJolly]

What I don't get is why FARMS and FAIR have to even come up with with their responses to defend controversial LDS doctrine which aren't endorsed by the church. If the mormons have a prophet and always have had a prophet why doesn't he just answer the questions just like that?

Instead of saying "we don't know what he meant by that" or "that's not official doctrine" or "it's not essential for our salvation, it isn't important".

Why doesn't someone who can speak officially and is a prophet just say - "The answer to your question is this..."

Why doesn't the church have an official stance on evolution, for example. Can't he just ask and get the facts?

Sounds as though you'd like to be given all the answers without having to think about it, without consideration, without your own judgement or involvement. I suppose you could say "well, if they'd just lay it all out in black and white, take a solid stand, make it clear exactly what they're saying, then I could look at it rationally and compare the claims to the known evidence, and make a reasoned judgement. What's wrong with that?"

There IS something wrong with that. There is a very, very good reason that FAITH is the FIRST principle of the Gospel. It is non-negotiable.

This life is all about each of us figuring things out, through our own development, through our own personal growth. You don't seem to appreciate that.

HiJolly

[HiJolly]

Jenamarie, that book has been recommended to me by several people so I am intrigued to read it. Is it the type of thing they sell on amazon or in the church bookshop?? I am definitely intrigued by it as several ex mormons and people who are at issue with the church have recommended it to me aswell. So I am very interested to know what is in it.

Why would a reasonably intelligent, computer-literate person such as yourself ask "is it the type of thing they sell on amazon"? Why? You're interested in knowing the answers, but like Church history, you can't look it up yourself? Why not?

What is going on here??

HiJolly

[Snow]

Ok, here's another question, with this story in mind, why did Joseph Smith give 4 different accounts of the first vision?? (This may not be totally accurate as I have just heard it but I am sure he gave more than one account of it).

I don't know but I assume (let's assume) you are married. Keeping your concern in mind, can we be assured that you have only given one account of your marriage day? That you told the story once and put all proper detail into it and since then haven't spoken on it again?

Why are a lot of the symbols in the temple identical to masonic symbols and rituals when they were alledgedly 'revealed' by God?

Gee - could it be that it was because God in fact revealed it. Just a guess.

I suppose that your point is that God can only reveal things that no one has ever heard or seen before. I don't buy that.

Why has the temple ceremony changed over the years after BY declaring it 'must never be altered'?

Golly - could it be that BY was wrong? Or, could it be that there are some parts of the ritual that must necessarily be consistent and other parts that fluid - kind of teaching aids?

[HiJolly]

Very interesting article hemidakota, and very plausible. However, there are still a lot of things that dont tally.

Surely, having been visited by Christ and God himself, Moroni, peter james and John and whoever else, all giving him face-to-face instruction, Joseph Smith would not have thought 'oh, God must have forgot to mention these'. Its ridiculous, he was alledgedly told everything he needed to do and know, by face to face contact with heavenly messengers. If these plates turned up why didnt he just ask God what they were??? If he was on those sort of terms with God surely he would have got an immediate answer they were fake, and dismissed them. Clearly he did not do that, he wanted to try and translate them!!!! What does this say about his relationship with God as a Prophet??

Also, where on earth did this Wiley get a 9 foot skeleton from to 'bury' them with? Its just all very weird and the sketchy details on the whole issue just pose more questions. Having read that article, on its merit alone, I believe they were fake. What it also shows too, is that Joseph Smith did NOT appear to receive any revelation or answers on these plates.

Ok, here's another question, with this story in mind, why did Joseph Smith give 4 different accounts of the first vision?? (This may not be totally accurate as I have just heard it but I am sure he gave more than one account of it).

Why did he lie to Emma about the number of wives he took?

Why did he 'marry' women who were already married, and young girls?

Why are a lot of the symbols in the temple identical to masonic symbols and rituals when they were alledgedly 'revealed' by God?

Why has the temple ceremony changed over the years after BY declaring it 'must never be altered'?

Just thought Id move the discussion along a bit. I really would genuinely like some answers to these questions, as Im sure YellowLight would too.

You need to study on these questions. What we say doesn't mean anything to you. Only what *you* think, after reading original source historical documents, matters. Don't read other people's opinions and then take those as truth. Don't give up that judgement.

Take the time. Do the work. Trust no one but yourself.

Can you do it? Or do you just want to give judgement up to someone else? Someone WANTS you to give up your judgement, and it isn't Christ or His followers.

HiJolly

[Snow]

Here is another question:

For those of you who are familiar with the Kinderhook plates, why did Joseph Smith write the following:

"I insert fac-similes of the six brass plates found near Kinderhook, in Pike county, Illinois, on April 23, by Mr. Robert Wiley and others, while excavating a large mound. They found a skeleton about six feet from the surface of the earth, which must have stood nine feet high. The plates were found on the breast of the skeleton and were covered on both sides with ancient characters.

I have translated a portion of them and find they contain the history of the person with whom they were found. He was a descendant of Ham, through the loins of Pharaoh, king of Egypt, and that he received his kingdom from the ruler of heaven and earth." (History of the Church, Vol. 5, p. 372)

I have heard some apologists saying that it wasn't actually a translation, but reading this, it was. It is so obvious...and we now know that these were a fraud. Why doesn't the church just be up front and honest about it? This was one of the first things that caught my attention and my Bishop had absolutely no answer for it. Maybe someone here can enlighten me.

So you made up your mind... the Church is not up front and honest... in essence lying.

So now it's easy, you already have the context and are free to point the finger of blame and pass judgement. I assume that you have throughly researched the matter, considering all evidence and that why you are secure it your contention that the Church isn't honest.

Being so knowledgeable, let me ask you a question... where are the kinderhook plates? If Joseph or the Church thought that they contained history on a "descendant of Ham, through the loins of Pharaoh, king of Egypt, and that he received his kingdom from the ruler of heaven and earth" the plates would have been kept safe.

Where are they?

Another question... are you sure JS wrote what you claimed he wrote? I doubt it.

[Hemidakota]

Very interesting article hemidakota, and very plausible. However, there are still a lot of things that dont tally.

Surely, having been visited by Christ and God himself, Moroni, peter james and John and whoever else, all giving him face-to-face instruction, Joseph Smith would not have thought 'oh, God must have forgot to mention these'. Its ridiculous, he was alledgedly told everything he needed to do and know, by face to face contact with heavenly messengers. If these plates turned up why didnt he just ask God what they were??? If he was on those sort of terms with God surely he would have got an immediate answer they were fake, and dismissed them. Clearly he did not do that, he wanted to try and translate them!!!! What does this say about his relationship with God as a Prophet??

Also, where on earth did this Wiley get a 9 foot skeleton from to 'bury' them with? Its just all very weird and the sketchy details on the whole issue just pose more questions. Having read that article, on its merit alone, I believe they were fake. What it also shows too, is that Joseph Smith did NOT appear to receive any revelation or answers on these plates.

Ok, here's another question, with this story in mind, why did Joseph Smith give 4 different accounts of the first vision?? (This may not be totally accurate as I have just heard it but I am sure he gave more than one account of it).

Why did he lie to Emma about the number of wives he took?

Why did he 'marry' women who were already married, and young girls?

Why are a lot of the symbols in the temple identical to masonic symbols and rituals when they were alledgedly 'revealed' by God?

Why has the temple ceremony changed over the years after BY declaring it 'must never be altered'?

Just thought Id move the discussion along a bit. I really would genuinely like some answers to these questions, as Im sure YellowLight would too.

I understand. I can testify by seeing the Lord or one of His ministering spirits, it is still not over as to self-learning or mastering this mortality in receiving a direct answers. We will keep learning until the last breath. If you don’t believe, ask one of the Apostle or a living prophet. :)

You can easily find a large size remains from one the Indian mounds located in the mid-west that contains skeletons up to 14-feet tall. This is not hard to do. Though, a grave robber is a better description for him. Do a ‘goggle’ search 'Indian Mounds' If these skeletons are still here and they died prior to Christ, that means, they are in trouble, regards to the resurrection.

Have you not written something that was reedited more than once? I for one, in the current draft stages, writing my condense version of my journal [spanning more than 30-years] and rewritten my account of conversion more than several times already. You know, senior moments are here. Years have past, as it was for Joseph. He simply didn't write them down after the vision. It was done many years later. Beside that, having least desirable education [2nd grade], it was probably hard for him to master any writing skills. You can clearly see that in the latest release of the new diaries. I have a hard time in reading them. If this is the case, how many scribes and secretaries did this prophet have in his lifetime? I for one am a bad writer, lack the skills as others may have in this mortality. I do admit this weakness as Moroni did. This was a problem among most great noble ones [see Abraham 3]. It is more or less; keep them humble and dependent on the Savior and others. I can only thank my wife and her skills in English and writing, that edits my work, talks, and so forth.

A prophet is not perfect, nor was Joseph. His love for Emma was deeply profound than most men of our time; only second to the Savior. You know, he held in his pocket, the Polygamy revelation, fearing the reaction from Emma? You can do the math for that answer now.

Are you a member of the Church? I thought you were...if so, you tell me why he married others and the symbols of the Temple. I will give you hint for the temple, the design is a symbol of the eternal cosmos.

[lds9999]

I agree on several points that have been made on this thread. First, perhaps more transparency in the Church with regard to our history is appropriate. Honestly, I think that's been happening over the past few years (the MMM, Joseph Smith Papers, etc.) both within the Church officially and by Mormon scholars. That said, I believe the responsibility falls on us. Just as we can never gain a firm testimony of the gospel just by showing up to Sunday School each week, I don't believe we can gain a solid understanding of the history of the Church by just showing up either. Outside of Church, we study the scriptures, we pray, we ponder the doctrine, and we receive the answers we seek to gain a testimony. Similarly, outside of Church, we study the history, we pray, we ponder about the issues, and we can sort out these issues in our hearts and minds.

Second, I agree that you're probably not going to get absolutely satisfactory answers from a message board. Take one issue and just start hitting it really hard. There are tremendous resources available now from some top-notch LDS scholars (Bushman, Givens, etc.), LDS groups (FARMS, FAIR, etc.) and Church materials. I've realized that for every question I can come up with, it's already been studied and written about. But it does require effort sometimes to find those resources. At one point in my life, I finally told myself, "Stop looking for questions, and start looking for answers."

Third, I would recommend finding a mentor, a friend, etc. What I mean by that is that there are people in every ward who dig deep, who study the doctrine and the history, who have resolved these same issues intellectually and spiritually themselves. Ponder and pray about who that might be--it might not be someone you're real close to in your ward. For me, the person is about twice my age, but we have had the greatest conversations about these issues and others that I've come across. Find that person, because more likely than not, they will be more than willing to help think through some of the issues.

[Guest Seraphim]

Can't think of anything that has been revealed at all. Gordon's "Be kind, be smart" doesn't count to me. Neither does changing the introduction in the book of mormon from principal ancestors to among the ancestors, or to start saying that Joseph translated by a magic stone which he already owned rather than by the Urim and Thummim which the church used to teach.

Do not refer to President Hinckley as Gordon, please.

Seraphim

[YellowLight]

Aphrodite: I would really recommend you read Rough Stone Rolling, if you haven't already. A lot of your questions about the Prophet would likely be answered by it. :)

I called Borders and had them order it for me. Should get in it a few days.

[Guest User-Removed]

. All of the first presidency and the quorum of the 12 are seers - which means they all have access to a seer stone. The Traveler

I seem to recall that all are to be considered as Prophets...but only the President of the Church holds the keys to be a Seer and a Revelator...

[Hemidakota]

Trying to understand your point... you think that the prophet should just have God tell him the answer to all the questions you think should be answered and that God should just do whatever the prophet wants, which in this case is whatever you want.

Is that about right?

I keep asking the same from the Godhead..."JUST GIVE IT TO ME PLAINLY AND NOW!" We know, that is not going to happen. [Humor]

The prophets are no different.

When one of the President's of the church died, the first councilor, who was the senior Apostle, went to the temple with his daughter to ask for divine guidance in this matter of replacing the decease prophet. While in the Celestial room, he prayed, he prayed, and he prayed. Then, he waited for an answer. He waited, and waited, and waited until finally he thought the Lord was busy, so he decided to leave the temple.

His daughter, waiting in a room down the hallway, went on ahead of the senior apostle to exit the temple.

While the senior apostle was walking down the hallway from the Celestial Room, who appeared? The Savior...

It is not on our time but His time when He will appear and to converse with us.

[YellowLight]

Being so knowledgeable, let me ask you a question... where are the kinderhook plates? If Joseph or the Church thought that they contained history on a "descendant of Ham, through the loins of Pharaoh, king of Egypt, and that he received his kingdom from the ruler of heaven and earth" the plates would have been kept safe.

Where are they?

The kinderhook plates are located at the Chicago Historical Society.

[Guest User-Removed]

Can't think of anything that has been revealed at all. Gordon's "Be kind, be smart" doesn't count to me. QUOTE]

This kind of garden variety disrespect is shameful and just goes to creating a neon sign over the posters head to show off ignorance...

[Guest Seraphim]

We understand that some of you have doubts here. Please don't belittle those who have given you genuine and honest answers according to their beliefs.

Seraphim

[Hemidakota]

I seem to recall that all are to be considered as Prophets...but only the President of the Church holds the keys to be a Seer and a Revelator...

What does the Doctrine and Covenants tell us? D&C 21:1, 107:92, 124, 125]

[Guest User-Removed]

I'm curious here...For all those who seem to think themselves smarter that our Prophet and Quorum of the 12...

If you turned on KBYU today and President Monson was address the faithful and announced the time has come for us all to head to Missouri....I wonder how fast threads on here would fill up trashing him???

Those who "live" in this Church waiting for any Prophet, Seer and Revelator to part the Great Salt Lake before they'll believe...are a slothful generation....

[YellowLight]

OK, this is the original:

William Clayton wrote "I have seen 6 brass plates... covered with ancient characters of language containing from 30 to 40 on each side of the plates. Prest J. has translated a portion and says they contain the history of the person with whom they were found and he was a descendant of Ham through the loins of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and that he received his kingdom from the ruler of heaven and earth." (William Clayton's Journal, May 1, 1843, as cited in Trials of Discipleship - The Story of William Clayton, a Mormon, p. 117)

I am not trying to beat a dead horse here but the question that still remains is that Clayton writes that Joseph Smith said "they contain the history..." Why would he say this if he knew they were fake? If he had the power of discernment he would not have said this.