Unanswered Questions

[YellowLight]

I'm curious here...For all those who seem to think themselves smarter that our Prophet and Quorum of the 12...

If you turned on KBYU today and President Monson was address the faithful and announced the time has come for us all to head to Missouri....I wonder how fast threads on here would fill up trashing him???

Those who "live" in this Church waiting for any Prophet, Seer and Revelator to part the Great Salt Lake before they'll believe...are a slothful generation....

I don't think that has any relevance to any of my questions. But, are you saying that many members of the church on this board would trash him? Hmmmm....

[Hemidakota]

I'm curious here...For all those who seem to think themselves smarter that our Prophet and Quorum of the 12...

If you turned on KBYU today and President Monson was address the faithful and announced the time has come for us all to head to Missouri....I wonder how fast threads on here would fill up trashing him???

Those who "live" in this Church waiting for any Prophet, Seer and Revelator to part the Great Salt Lake before they'll believe...are a slothful generation....

Concur....nothing grieves me more when we see Saints becoming tares among the wheat. It usually starts the same way, using the BOM model of beginnings of an apostate, what the Nephites did.

[Hemidakota]

OK, this is the original:

William Clayton wrote "I have seen 6 brass plates... covered with ancient characters of language containing from 30 to 40 on each side of the plates. Prest J. has translated a portion and says they contain the history of the person with whom they were found and he was a descendant of Ham through the loins of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and that he received his kingdom from the ruler of heaven and earth." (William Clayton's Journal, May 1, 1843, as cited in Trials of Discipleship - The Story of William Clayton, a Mormon, p. 117)

I am not trying to beat a dead horse here but the question that still remains is that Clayton writes that Joseph Smith said "they contain the history..." Why would he say this if he knew they were fake? If he had the power of discernment he would not have said this.

It is a matter of questioning Clayton's admissions. As with Zelph being called a Nephite and those who said, Joseph mentioned it. It was not a true statement. The word Nephite was added later. Why? I simply don't know what happen.

[lds9999]

Very interesting article hemidakota, and very plausible. However, there are still a lot of things that dont tally.

You likely have already read it, but I think this piece of information is critical that the account quoted by Joseph Smith was not written by Joseph himself. Diane Wirth, writing in Review of Books on the Book of Mormon (4: 210), discredits the account by writing: “Joseph Smith’s supposed statement that the Kinderhook plates were authentic and that they were the ‘records of the descendants of Ham,’ came from the journal of William Clayton, who wrote in the first person, as though from the mouth of Joseph Smith. A first-person narrative was apparently a common practice of this time period when a biographical work was being compiled. Since such words were never penned by the Prophet, they cannot be uncritically accepted as his words or his opinion.”

Considering that few people were entitled to be a part of the translation of the Book of Mormon, I doubt that many people were involved in whatever study there was of the Kinderhook Plates. Could Clayton have been speculating that Joseph had "started" the translation? I'm not trying to make this any sort of definitive response, I'm just saying that there are a lot of issues surrounding this and careful study is required of each one of them.

Ok, here's another question, with this story in mind, why did Joseph Smith give 4 different accounts of the first vision?? (This may not be totally accurate as I have just heard it but I am sure he gave more than one account of it).

I want to say that I fully respect asking questions and have done so many times as mentioned in my previous post. But as you mention here, it seems that you're repeating a question that you've just heard about, but not studied to find the answer.

One of the best responses on this issue is from Jeff Lindsay in his "Isn't It Odd That There Are Different Versions of the First Vision Story?" My favorite line is his first, "Not at all. The way we interpret major experiences in our lives changes with time, and the details that we emphasize in a story vary according to our audience and our purpose in relating the event."

Why are a lot of the symbols in the temple identical to masonic symbols and rituals when they were alledgedly 'revealed' by God?

Again, I think there are lots of great resources on this topic that don't necessarily need to be rehashed here. See Jeff Lindsay again (it's a good deal of reading, but worth it, especially if it poses a real concern to you). Understanding Masonry's history and claims might be useful in your search as well.

Why has the temple ceremony changed over the years after BY declaring it 'must never be altered'?

FAIR has written about this. I'm not sure if your concern is about the specific changes or Brigham Young's quote. On specific changes, I would summarize by saying that the doctrine of the temple has not changed, though some minor parts of the ceremony have to clarify the meaning. (This is a great discussion with a mentor in the celestial room.)

About Brigham Young's quote, I'm not disputing it, but am interested in the source. I tried to google 'must never be altered' and Brigham Young, but got no results.

[Guest Seraphim]

For specific unanswered questions, please start a separate thread for each issue. I would also like to see documentation for any claims made from legitimate sources.

Seraphim

[Hemidakota]

Look, Temple rituals are not 'concrete' but will evolve over time as it been doing since the gospel was restored.

There is no statement that I am aware of that was quoted by President Young concerning the temple being static. It was quite different:

In succeeding years, Brigham Young suggested that the presentation of the endowment could further evolve. On April 6, 1845, in a Nauvoo Conference Brigham Young said that Joseph “did not receive every thing connected with the doctrine of redemption” in his lifetime, but instead “left the key” with the Brethren. “We have got to learn how to be faithful in a few things; you know the promise is, if we are faithful in a few things, we shall be made ruler over many things. If we improve upon small things, greater will be given unto us.” 6 Millennial Star No. 8 (October 1, 1845), 6:119-123.

Later, when the New Jerusalem will be built in the exact spot where the center of the Garden [Eden] was located, the temple rituals will again evolve.

Even the garments have changed. Why? I was one of those who requested garment mods made for military personal and athletes. The Lord does allow changes when permitted.

[Hemidakota]

Aphrodite, this may help to answer the changes made to the First Vision: http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Brochures/The_First_Vision.pdf

[Aphrodite]

Why would a reasonably intelligent, computer-literate person such as yourself ask "is it the type of thing they sell on amazon"? Why? You're interested in knowing the answers, but like Church history, you can't look it up yourself? Why not?

What is going on here??

HiJolly

Chill, love, I was only asking!!!

[Aphrodite]

thanks for all the interesting sources guys- I will definitely look them all up :)

[MaidservantX]

What I don't get is why FARMS and FAIR have to even come up with with their responses to defend controversial LDS doctrine which aren't endorsed by the church. If the mormons have a prophet and always have had a prophet why doesn't he just answer the questions just like that?

Instead of saying "we don't know what he meant by that" or "that's not official doctrine" or "it's not essential for our salvation, it isn't important".

Why doesn't someone who can speak officially and is a prophet just say - "The answer to your question is this..."

Why doesn't the church have an official stance on evolution, for example. Can't he just ask and get the facts?

We are allowed to think. We are allowed to learn. We are allowed to approach the Father personally. This allows for many to be in different spiritual and knowledge conditions without being 'outside the law'. I like thinking for myself. I don't want to be dictated to about everything.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints IS the Gathering of Israel promised. That is its purpose.

By the way, Yellow brought up what we learn in the Temple. I love rto realize any differences perceived. I can take a friend with me to the temple and we can discuss (in a whisper :)) our questions or what we think we have learned in the Celestial Room of the temple. I do think that the Temple information is just a step farther into the light (than some information in the scriptures). We have many more steps to take; the Temple isn't necessarily the last of them.

I always appreciate Traveler's comments, however I have never personally heard of a covenant regarding seer stones or whether the Brethren have them.

[Guest User-Removed]

I don't think that has any relevance to any of my questions. But, are you saying that many members of the church on this board would trash him? Hmmmm....

Au Contraire...I believe it is of great importance. I'm sad to say that I have sat on these threads and watched folks exclaim their love for the LDS Church...and yet heap scorn on all things LDS.

I've sat here and watched so called good Latter Day Saints wonder aloud if our Prophet, Seer and Revelator is actually a man of God...and if so...why hasn't he turned water to Apple Beer or raised his cane mightily and made the BYU Cougars the BCS Champions...

I've seen folks on one thread express their doubts about the veracity of the Church...Yet on another thread, "pretend" to be experts on deep doctrine.

NOW...Before you get your knickers in a twist. I'm not referring to you..simply explaining to the thread my experience so far.

[MaidservantX]

Also, FARMS and FAIR and the like -- the various content -- are not coming from individuals who DON'T have any questions (about the Church, history, doctrine, so on) -- they are coming from individuals who have the SAME questions expressed here. When they got their answers after studying, they found a handy-dandy website to publish to make it easier for the rest of us, if we didn't want to do the same fieldwork on our own.

[KosherXMorg]

Hello,

I am new to this site. Let me introduce myself. I was born into the church, served a mission, got married in the temple, and was a pretty active member all my life. Some time ago, my wife and I felt there were some things about the church we would like to understand better. We believed a fuller understanding would lead to a deeper faith and conviction of the truthfulness of the gospel. Since then, we have studied more church history and doctrine than the rest of our lives combined. Additionally, we have fasted and prayed fervently, both together and individually, for guidance in finding answers to our questions. We didn’t set out to try and prove anything other than to answer some of the nagging questions we had. As we tried to answer them, even more questions came up.

Over the course of our study, we were very careful about the materials we used. We relied heavily on materials produced by the church, including the History of the Church, Journal of Discourses, The Diary of the Prophet Joseph Smith, the scriptures, conference talks, Ensign Articles, and other church publications, as well as books by individual church members and secular historians. We were careful to stay away from rabid “anti-Mormon” literature, especially the “Evangelical Christian” kind, because we could easily tell that many factual things in them had been distorted or exaggerated. In short, we have spent many hours honestly seeking answers out of the best resources possible. We have done this together as well as on our own to make sure that we came to our own individual conclusions. We also attempted to get some resolve from local leaders in the church who told us that we could believe whatever we wanted, as long as we didn't share our opinions with others in the ward. This made no sense to us...we wouldn't be able to answer the temple recommend questions honestly. The one thing we could do is be honest with ourselves.

Since then, we have been on many forums trying to work out our feelings and such. Why can't anyone, LDS or non-LDS provide honest answers without beating around the bush? They are brushed off as not being "official" doctrine or the typical resonse of "it doesn't matter" or "that's not what was taught."

Lastly, I am not looking to stir up confrontation here at all. There are many other forums that I could do that on.

Welcome fellow traveler to my world , I know just what you are going through (been at it about 7 years now) and I would be happy to converse with you. One bit of advice... never loose your testimony of the Book of Mormon, get that Spirit witness again and study with that knowledge in mind. I haven't read the other post in the thread yet, so I don't know your exact questions, so give me some time to catch up.

[KosherXMorg]

Welcome fellow traveler to my world , I know just what you are going through (been at it about 7 years now) and I would be happy to converse with you. One bit of advice... never loose your testimony of the Book of Mormon, get that Spirit witness again and study with that knowledge in mind. I haven't read the other post in the thread yet, so I don't know your exact questions, so give me some time to catch up.

Holy Zamboni! I just realized there are 14 pages in this topic... Oy Vey!!! (just for you Venge, er, MyDogSkip)

[HiJolly]

Holy Zamboni! I just realized there are 14 pages in this topic... Oy Vey!!! (just for you Venge, er, MyDogSkip)

Is Yiddish kosher?

HiJolly

[Misshalfway]

As I have been reading thru this thread and the questions of the OP, it seems to me that they really can be boiled down to basic questions.

Is Joseph Smith a prophet of God IF, he gave slightly differenct accounts or descriptions of the BofM, used seer stones, translated something that was later proved to be a fake or participated in a history that is sometimes taught about openly and sometimes not, changed policy and practice, and struggled with polygamy?

Am I getting you Yellow?

I don't think there is anything wrong with asking questions. I am also one that has asked questions about the church..... and felt profound doubt too. I have learned a few things thru-out my searching and doubting and working to stretch my faith. And I offer it only as a side note. Compost what doesn't fit.

First of all, the scriptures are my anchor! When I have doubts, it seems to be the Bible & BofM and sometimes more importantly, the D&C that brings my confidence back and comforts those demanding and argumentative parts of me. I especially like the D&C when my questions center around history or Joseph. It is very clear to me that Joseph was imperfect....as were many who served with him. And it is also clear that the Lord chastised them, and made course corrections based upon the choices of followers and enemies alike. And more than anything, it has become clear to me that the Lord is truly in charge. Like when the Lord says stuff like "I excuse not myself" -- I feel the power of that.

I think sometimes in my infant-like logic, I expect everything about the church to be clean and clear and without failing. And then when I discover that it isn't clean and clear, or that the history is colorful, that perhaps that makes it all a lie.

That is really is your question, isn't it, Yellow? You wanna know if this church is just a big sham.

It sounds like what you have read has shaken your testimony, or at least disappointed you because this wasn't the history you thought it was or should have been. It sounds like it has shaken you enough to move you away from full participation. Why didn't they tell us all this stuff? I can only guess. My first answer is that I am not sure they have concealed it other than for purposes of damage control. Our enemies are pretty good at their craft.

As I have processed my own doubts....moved thru the fear.....managed the frustrations of those who I felt should help or explain or whatever....and then tried to find answers, I must tell you that I feel like I know when God is leading me to light, and when Satan is tempting me with doubt. I have been struggling for a while now, so I am getting to know both sides pretty clearly. And there is one thing I know for sure -- God doesn't use doubt and fear to explain or expose truth. When something isn't true, the light shines and peace abounds. If you read something in church history that is untrue or that makes Joseph's experience invalid, peace and light will abound!!! If this church got anything right it is the understanding of the Holy Spirit of the Lord and how it works.

And just one more note -- Inviting someone to pray about their concerns is NOT brushing them off. Yes, our church uses it as a default to everything. I know....I been around for a while. But I don't know of anything else that has helped me more. As I try to navigate the darkness and confusionand flatterings of the adversary, it isn't history books or PhD's or message boards that has made the difference. And when all the other sources are dead ends, it has been Heavenly Father's door that has always been open for me. Always sure. Always wise. Always loving. Not always easy. Not always everything I want when I want it.

Good Luck in your searchings.

PS. I was raised in the church and I was taught about many of the things discussed in this thread. Most of it was introduced in my college coursework. I am glad that the church doesn't do the fleshing of every historical detail. It gets confusing and merky with detail and IMO wastes a lot of time. I am glad the church focuses on the core doctrine.

[Hemidakota]

profound Willow..."...we wonder why there will be more women left in the church then men in the end."

[Guest tomk]

...wonder why there will be more women left in the church then men in the end."

A shortage of green jello with carrots?

[Hemidakota]

I could say, no more remodeling the house dear [going on change 1 million here].

[Snow]

The kinderhook plates are located at the Chicago Historical Society.

Just to keep things straight - my post didn't just ask where the plates were, my post in it's entirety said:

So you made up your mind... the Church is not up front and honest... in essence lying.

So now it's easy, you already have the context and are free to point the finger of blame and pass judgement. I assume that you have throughly researched the matter, considering all evidence and that why you are secure it your contention that the Church isn't honest.

Being so knowledgeable, let me ask you a question... where are the kinderhook plates? If Joseph or the Church thought that they contained history on a "descendant of Ham, through the loins of Pharaoh, king of Egypt, and that he received his kingdom from the ruler of heaven and earth" the plates would have been kept safe.

Where are they?

Another question... are you sure JS wrote what you claimed he wrote? I doubt it.

I think it is important to reiterate what I posted because you obviously pick and choose in an effort promote a certain viewpoint. With that in mind:

1. The Kinderhook plates are NOT located at the Chicago Historical Society as you claim. One single plate that MAY be one of the Kinderhook plates was acquired by the CHS. There is no proof that it actually is one of the original Kinderhook plates, In fact one of the people that claimed to be part of the original 'hoax, Fugate, ' said that the plates were copper, but the plate at the CHS is not copper, it is brass.

2. You claim that the Church is not honest and upfront about the Kinderhook plates. I note that you provide ZERO evidence for such dishonesty. You are, apparently, content to smear the Church and be done with it. Apparently you are less interested in understanding the Kinderhook issue and more interested some agenda.

3. You claimed that Joseph Smith wrote "I have translated a portion of them and find they contain the history of the person with whom they were found. He was a descendant of Ham, through the loins of Pharaoh, king of Egypt, and that he received his kingdom from the ruler of heaven and earth."

That is UNTRUE. Joseph Smith did not write that. In fact it was written by William Clayton in his personal journal and then changed from third person to the first person account you quoted.

4. If the claims of those that confessed to the Kinderhook affair are to be believed, they either intended to trap and expose the prophet or perhaps profit by selling the plates. Yet the supposed hoaxers didn't say word one about the hoax/affair for years after - in a letter that was dated in 1855 (but not discovered until 1912) and an affidavit in 1879. Why the long wait to reveal the hoax and spring the trap - if the intent was to expose a false prophet? Because the hoax failed .... obviously as anyone who had bothered to check the facts would know. No attempt, that anyone knows of was made to acquire the plates or research or translate them. It was a non-issue to Joseph.

But you didn't bother to check the facts... you were primarily interested in claiming that the Church was dishonest, or so it seems.

[YellowLight]

Snow,

You seem to be pretty good at twisting things yourself. So you are telling me that someone created a copy of a fake? Hmmm.... Yes, that sounds plausible. You also seem to be under the illusion that there is no possible way that the leaders of the church could ever be fooled by anything, is that right? Do we really need to dive into the Book of Abraham and what about the Hoffman incident? So much for the power of discernment huh?

It is people like you that make crazy accusations that there couldn't possibly be anything to what millions of others are saying. You take your side and twist it however it fits your needs. I have been trying to take an objective approach to all of this. However, I can clearly discern what kind of spirit you have.

[Guest User-Removed]

I think it's time to close this thread. Clearly it was created IMHO by those forces who lie in wait to deceive....

[Guest User-Removed]

Snow,It is people like you that make crazy accusations that there couldn't possibly be anything to what millions of others are saying. You take your side and twist it however it fits your needs. I have been trying to take an objective approach to all of this. However, I can clearly discern what kind of spirit you have.

9 out of 10 Apostates and Anti's are going w00t..w00t...for you as I type...

[Guest User-Removed]

Snow,It is people like you that make crazy accusations that there couldn't possibly be anything to what millions of others are saying. You take your side and twist it however it fits your needs. I have been trying to take an objective approach to all of this. However, I can clearly discern what kind of spirit you have.[/QUOTE]

Wait a moment please...Let me get this right...Earlier you claimed that you couldn't get the "spirit" to help you discern if Joseph Smith was a Prophet called of God...YET...this same spirit that has failed you where the Prophet Joseph is concerned...is jonny on the spot for you...where a chat room moderator is concerned???

Sorry...but I call horse feathers....

[Jenamarie]

I think it's time to close this thread. Clearly it was created IMHO by those forces who lie in wait to deceive....

Really? I've PM'd with YellowLight a bit, and I don't believe he's out to deceive anyone at all.