Bruce R. McConkie & Apostasy

[Heather]

Don't make me come back there! I'll turn this car around, so help me...

C'mon friends! Lets stop making rash judgements about people. There's no need to judge people you don't know or even judge people in this thread. We all have different view points on certain matters, and that's okay. Stop being mean to each other just because you disagree. Take a higher road. Talk to each other like you care about each other--as we should all care about each other.

[Guest User-Removed]

Don't make me come back there! I'll turn this car around, so help me...

C'mon friends! Lets stop making rash judgements about people. There's no need to judge people you don't know or even judge people in this thread. We all have different view points on certain matters, and that's okay. Stop being mean to each other just because you disagree. Take a higher road. Talk to each other like you care about each other--as we should all care about each other.

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH....You're sooo cute when you're angry...

[KosherXMorg]

The point is that he wasn't ex'd because he wrote about inconvenient history. While only those privy to the actual proceedings understand the whole story, those close to the situation inform us that he was excommunicated for insubordination, which is a nice way to say apostasy.

Isn't your statement on oxymoron? "He wasn't ex'd for his writings, he was ex'd for apostacy". His supossed apostacy WAS his writings.

[Guest User-Removed]

Isn't your statement on oxymoron? "He wasn't ex'd for his writings, he was ex'd for apostacy". His supossed apostacy WAS his writings.

Kosher....Don't you mean "Oxymormon"????

[HiJolly]

Isn't your statement on oxymoron? "He wasn't ex'd for his writings, he was ex'd for apostacy". His supossed apostacy WAS his writings.

Actually--- I think the whole situation was a bit more nuanced than that.

But since I don't have the right to say anything about Dr. Quinn's excommunication experience, I'll remain silent. Perhaps we could just say that his membership was in jeopardy on more than one front...

I do respect his statement that he is still convinced that the Church is true.

HiJolly

[Elphaba]

Thanks for the correction. I know it was a tough time for both sides of the aisle in 1993 when these things were occurring. While I understand, from your explanation on Quinn's view to publish regardless the cost, I'm a strong believer in following my Church leaders and letting God handle their mistakes and bad judgments.

Hi Rameumpton,

You're welcome for the information about Quinn’s excommunication.

I agree with almost everything you’ve written in your post. The leaders are there to lead the members, and it is incumbent on believing members to follow them. I think the Church has the right to demand this.

I also agree if Quinn had been a historian a decade later, his life would be totally different today. In fact, here in Utah, PBS will broadcast productions about different aspects of the Church’s history.

Inevitably, Quinn is used as a subject-matter expert. The producers rely on his accuracy and knowledge about the Church’s history with no hesitation.

Obviously there are those who do not agree with Quinn, and I do not think Quinn has a problem with that. What I think he does have a problem with is his inability to respond to his critics, especially those who review his books. Almost anything he says in rebuttal is dismissed by the apologists.

I think it must be agony for Quinn to know people out in the world actually demean his character for what he is rather than who he is.

Sometimes it is easy to forget that the Church is not a social club. The Church leaders, under God's guidance, make up the rules, whether we always agree with them or not. It is our choice to humbly submit or to reject their counsel. Either way, there are consequences we have to deal with.

Again, I agree with you. I was amazed at Quinn’s courage when he defied the leaders because of his belief that accurate history was more important than faith-promoting history.

Having said that, Church officials are very clear that its members follow the leaders. There is no equivocation about this. Members are obligated to follow their counsel, and to suffer the consequences when they do not.

Still, his current lifestyle would prevent his membership.

I suspect you are right, though the Oaks/Wickman interview claims otherwise. Obviously, the interview was generic in nature, and Quinn does not fit this mold. He is just too controversial.

I wish it were not so.

Thanks for your post,

Elphaba

[Elphaba]

I don't know him personally nor the details of the circumstances, however his current stance that he considers himself a member of the Church. . . .

Quinn does not consider himself to be a member of the Church.

He does, however, believe the Book of Mormon is true, and that the LDS Church is the restored gospel.

Elphaba

[Snow]

Isn't your statement on oxymoron? "He wasn't ex'd for his writings, he was ex'd for apostacy". His supossed apostacy WAS his writings.

My point was that the posters implied claim that he merely wrote history (albeit inconvenient) and that the reason he was excommunicated isn't necessarily so. He wrote history from a particular slant - meaning he picked what to include and what to exclude - by his own admission something that all historians do - and then drew conclusions about history. I suspect that his trouble had less to do with simple factual reporting and more with the picture he tried to paint using selected factual reporting.

[Hemidakota]

I agree with Snow....I love history and especially about individual who contributions to mortality and how they think to what they accomplish. Noting history writers as Snow remarked, is the problem why we have less accurate view of what did transpire and bias on some points.

[Moksha]

Noting history writers as Snow remarked, is the problem why we have less accurate view of what did transpire and bias on some points.

The other problem is what to do with history that is either not inspiring or is contradictory to the legends that has surplanted it.

[MichaelPAGuy]

Has Quinn ever tried to re-join the church?

[Guest User-Removed]

Has Quinn ever tried to re-join the church?

NO...The only one of the so called September Six to truly repent and be rebaptized is Avraham Gileadi.

Another one of the so called September Six was only disfellowshipped is Lynne Kanavel Whitesides, but she has publically broken with the Church, ended her marriage and is now a practitioner of some sort of Native American Religion. I believe she was prosecuted for some type of peyote violation, but not sure.

Upon his repentance and rebaptism, Gileadi has written some ground breaking works on Isaiah. His post September Six works were endorsed by the late Hugh Nibley. Gileadi also runs an institute for the study of the works of Isaiah.

Lavinia Fielding Anderson claims to still attend LDS services, although friends of mine in Utah dispute that. She most recently served as the editor for the Prince/Wright Biography on the late David O. McKay, published by the U Press.

I must admit, that while I find the likes of Anderson distasteful, she did an excellent job on the McKay book.

[Hemidakota]

Great writeup Skip...

Also, I just noticed that Gov. Romney is moving to Cali - my area. LOL

[Snow]

NO...The only one of the so called September Six to truly repent and be rebaptized is Avraham Gileadi.

Another one of the so called September Six was only disfellowshipped is Lynne Kanavel Whitesides, but she has publically broken with the Church, ended her marriage and is now a practitioner of some sort of Native American Religion. I believe she was prosecuted for some type of peyote violation, but not sure.

Upon his repentance and rebaptism, Gileadi has written some ground breaking works on Isaiah. His post September Six works were endorsed by the late Hugh Nibley. Gileadi also runs an institute for the study of the works of Isaiah.

Lavinia Fielding Anderson claims to still attend LDS services, although friends of mine in Utah dispute that. She most recently served as the editor for the Prince/Wright Biography on the late David O. McKay, published by the U Press.

I must admit, that while I find the likes of Anderson distasteful, she did an excellent job on the McKay book.

I talked to Lavinia Anderson a few years ago and at that time she reported that she faithfully attended every week and had even better attendance than her bishop.

[HiJolly]

The other problem is what to do with history that is either not inspiring or is contradictory to the legends that has surplanted it.

So true.

HiJolly

[Guest lauracooke78]

Little did I dream you could be so reckless and so cruel as to do an injury to that lad. It is, I regret to say, equally true that I fear he shall always bear a scar needlessly inflicted by you. If it were in my power to forgive you for your reckless cruelty, I would do so. I like to think I'm a gentle man, but your forgiveness will have to come from someone other than me. QUOTE]

Nice quote Dog. Thanks for the support. Don't worry about my young feelings. I don't scar that easy, and was not even insulted. People can say what they want and think what they want, it doesn't really matter to me. I know who I am and what I do and who I follow. I was more happy that you called me young... hehehe. Motherhood can make you feel older than you are sometimes...

[Andrew777]

Is this the sort of history that the excommunicated historians add their own slant too?

"I would not want you to believe that we bear any animosity toward the Negro. 'Darkies' are wonderful people, and they have their place in our church."

- Joseph Fielding Smith, October 22, 1963

Darkies, eh, in the 60's nonetheless not the 1800's.

[Andrew777]

WillowTheWhisp,

Please don't take to heart all of the comments that have been made in this thread. Only you and God know if you have sinned, and it is not for other people to tell you or to judge you. The gospel is about relationships and about people, and the members of the Church are supposed to fellowship each other and become good, supportive friends. Sometimes Church members don't take the gospel seriously, though, and fail to welcome new people into their midst the way they ought to. Who can be blamed for not continuing to attend a church where they don't feel welcome?

(((care)))

DH

Actually you're completely wrong there, it's up to the God-church to judge with the proper authority invested in it. The Bible says only God can judge and if you judge people harshly then you will be judged harshly...but this is only to common everyday members. Those in proper authority positions given by God can judge as if they were God himself as they gain guidance and revelation through their calling.

[Adeipho]

Actually you're completely wrong there, it's up to the God-church to judge with the proper authority invested in it. The Bible says only God can judge and if you judge people harshly then you will be judged harshly...but this is only to common everyday members. Those in proper authority positions given by God can judge as if they were God himself as they gain guidance and revelation through their calling.

I think you may have gone too far with this Andrew. No "judge in isreal" ie Bishop, judges "as if they were God", but instead judge "as stewards of Christ" and as faithful servants.

As one who has made many......many trips to the Bishop's office I can attest that not once have I been judged, but rather counciled and guided in a way that will prevent a future negitive judgement from the Lord.

The only "judgement" call made by the bishop, and under the direction of the Holy Spirit, was weather or not the process I went through was complete or not. Under the influence of and guidence of the Spirit, the bishop is able to judge or discern a man's heart.

[MichaelPAGuy]

How can a bishop, let alone any man judge a man's heart? How he feels? Only that person knows how sincere they are and how truly sorry they are. Please do not say it is because the bishop is called by god.

[Guest lauracooke78]

How can a bishop, let alone any man judge a man's heart? How he feels? Only that person knows how sincere they are and how truly sorry they are. Please do not say it is because the bishop is called by god.

Are you a member Michael? I can understand why you don't understand the concept if you aren't. Bishops are called of God, by prophesy and are the Lord's representative in his ward. That is LDS belief. We believe that this is Christ's church, but because Christ cannot be everywhere all the time, he must have ones who will represent him. I'm not saying that all bishops are always in tune with the Holy Ghost, but they are expected to be when they are acting in that role. And when they are in tune with the Holy Ghost, he will communicate what the Lord would do in each situation.

[Adeipho]

How can a bishop, let alone any man judge a man's heart? How he feels? Only that person knows how sincere they are and how truly sorry they are. Please do not say it is because the bishop is called by god.

Why would you insist I not say "because the bishop is called by god"? Seems if you assumed thats the answer I'd give you then perhaps you already know the answer to your question friend. Did you just hear a still small voice by chance?

[Guest User-Removed]

Actually you're completely wrong there, it's up to the God-church to judge with the proper authority invested in it. The Bible says only God can judge and if you judge people harshly then you will be judged harshly...but this is only to common everyday members. Those in proper authority positions given by God can judge as if they were God himself as they gain guidance and revelation through their calling.

Andrew...Not a judgement call, just an observation. I first encountered you in the chat room...From that "meeting" till this post, I have seen you post/say nothing positive or uplifting about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints...so I'm curious. If there is in your eyes nothing good , why did you join?

[Guest User-Removed]

Is this the sort of history that the excommunicated historians add their own slant too?

"I would not want you to believe that we bear any animosity toward the Negro. 'Darkies' are wonderful people, and they have their place in our church."

- Joseph Fielding Smith, October 22, 1963

Darkies, eh, in the 60's nonetheless not the 1800's.

Lie upon Lie

Decept upon Decept....

Let's shine the light of truth on this "1963" quote of the late Joseph Fielding Smith

You'll notice that most of the links associated with the quote Andrew777 posted come from Anti or Apostate websites...a fact that Andrew777 conveniently omits from his original post.

He even conveniently omits that the quote came from a LOOK magazine article...I'll post a commentary on the article at the end of this post.

I would not want you to believe that we bear any animosity toward the Negro. 'Darkies' are wonderful people, and they have their place in our church (Look magazine, October 22, 1963, 79; emphasis added).

Mormons and Black Skin

Now...This "Quote" is the poster child for exmo.com, Sandra Tanner, Ed Decker....on and on ad nauseum...

Let me post a link from FAIR that deals with how this "Quote" was used out of context.

Sadly...the article is too long to be posted in it's entirety here, but I will post a portion of it.

Here is the link, for those who desire to learn the truth behind the out of context use of the "Quote"

Mormonism 201: Chapter 16

Now that the reader is aware of the true position of the LDS church on the subject of racism, let us review McKeever and Johnson's favored medium for authoritative information, LOOK magazine. It provides an excellent lesson in how easily sources can be excised from the very surroundings that explain them when the intent is to sensationalize rather than to inform.

The cover of the October 22, 1963 issue reflects the prevailing social culture of the nation. It pictures a radiant Jackie Kennedy-like woman sitting in a new car, smiling with her laughing toddler who is standing on the car seat next to her. The child is dressed in an unbuttoned red cardigan, the collar of her crisp white blouse peeks over the sweater and her pleated plaid skirt is accessorized with stylish black and white oxfords and bobby socks.

This issue highlighted new 1964 cars. The full-page ad on page 55 tells us "what every girl should know." Women of that era evidently needed to know that "the man who drives a Super Torque Ford is a man of substance" and that she should "marry him at the first opportunity."

Not one article, photo, or ad in a full 154 pages of this colorful oversized magazine interrupts its perky Caucasian landscape by featuring an African-American. They are not to be seen in ads, Catholic schoolrooms, or even on a featured college football team. Looking at this slice of life from the sixties, the only reason one would have to think blacks even lived in the United States is one photo on page 118 where a few blacks are pictured as the recipients of charity. The patronizing hypocrisy of examining one small church's "attitude toward Negroes" in this sort of environment has, of course, not yet settled into the mainstream of American consciousness.

"Memo From a Mormon: In which a troubled young man raises the question of his church's attitude toward Negroes" is an article that indicates a growing awareness by the magazine of the need to talk about "Negroes," but there is no urgent need to talk to them or with them. The article itself is well done and fairly presented from the point of view of a young man who wished an end to the practice of allowing blacks full membership but restricting them from participation in the lay priesthood. The rogue quote used by McKeever and Johnson is only found in the "Editor's Note" attached to the article. William B. Arthur, managing editor of LOOK, interviewed Joseph Fielding Smith, then acting president of the Council of the Twelve Apostles. The full quote, following an explanatory paragraph, is as follows:

"I stand by every word in the article," President Smith said, after reading it aloud in Mr. Arthur's presence. "The Mormon Church does not believe, nor does it teach, that the Negro is an inferior being. Mentally, and physically, the Negro is capable of great achievement, as great and in some cases greater than the potential of the white race. He can become a lawyer, a doctor, a scientist, and he can achieve great heights. The word 'inferior' is indeed unfortunate."

Mr. Arthur asked President Smith if a Negro boy can pass the sacrament in the Mormon Church, as 12- and 13-year-old white Mormon boys do. President Smith replied, "No". He then was asked whether Negro boys could prepare the sacrament, as 14- and 15-year old white Mormon boys do. The answer was "No." "Can he bless the sacrament or perform baptism, as the 16-, 17-and 18-year old white Mormon boys do?" Mr. Arthur asked. Again the reply was, "no."

"The Negro cannot achieve priesthood in the Mormon Church," President Smith said. "No consideration is being given now to changing the doctrine of the Church to permit him to attain that status. Such a change can come about only through divine revelation, and no one can predict when a divine revelation will occur.

"I wouldn't want you to believe that we bear any animosity toward the Negro. 'Darkies' are wonderful people, and they have their place in our Church." 7

Interestingly, the article ends here. However, a statement from the body of the featured article is worth noting as it pinpoints the uncomfortable situation for LOOK's selectiveness in highlighting only Mormons.

The Negro who accepts the doctrines of the Church and is baptized by an authorized minister of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is entitled to salvation in the celestial kingdom, or the highest heaven spoken of by Paul.

It is true that the work of the ministry is given to other peoples, and why should the so-called Christian denominations complain? How many Negroes have been placed as ministers over white congregations in the so-called Christian denominations?

I must point out that this LOOK article was published in 1963, long before I suspect that Andrew777 was born. While his use of words today is regretable. We must remember that 1963 was a far different era than 2008 is today.

To hang one's hat on a quote taken from an anti or apostate web site is sad at best.

[Adeipho]

If everyone will notice, MyDogSkip and Adeipho have the same avatar. Capt. Moroni waving his banner. Its the mark of true genius.

Good post Skip!